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post #10861 of 11497 Old 07-11-2014, 06:33 PM
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KEMO is not as strong today. My humidity is 61%. KRCB is fine.

KEMO-SD 50.2 appears to be very starved of bits. No audio either. 50.1 is fine.

I have seen this before, time to get a capture and run TSReader!

SHF
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post #10862 of 11497 Old 07-11-2014, 06:39 PM
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There have been huge swings in signal strengths here the last few days again. There have been periods of especially good conditions to Mt. Sutro. The previously troublesome KBCW was SNR 31 dB this afternoon and KPIX was SNR 28 dB. KGO was SNR 31 dB for several hours. The really good conditions were to Salinas again. I've attached a composite spectrum analyzer image showing KSBW towering above all the other VHF stations. Even KCBA was equal to or better than Walnut Grove. The red line is the minimum signal strength of the pilot carrier necessary for the station to decode if the rest of the signal is flat.

A couple hours later KCBA was falling off the cliff.

KFTY was booming at SNR 28 dB.

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post #10863 of 11497 Old 07-11-2014, 08:51 PM
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KEMO TSReader output

Hi,

I got a full stream capture of KEMO.

KEMO-SD 50.2 now looks much better than the "I Love Lucy" or other show staring Lucille Ball that was on 50.2 earlier.





I wondered if Lucy was botched when created from the original tape.

Is 1.82 Mbps too low?

SHF
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post #10864 of 11497 Old 07-12-2014, 12:32 PM
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Salinas LPTV is a mess.... or at least most of it is.

During some really good conditions this morning I surveyed the stations down there.

KOTR analog 2 - No longer on the air. No trace of a video carrier under superb conditions.
KMBY-LD 19 - Link problems, picture pixelates all the time.
KLFB-LD 22 - Off the air most of the time and has other issues when it is on the air.
K29AB analog 29 - Link issues, not always repeating KICU. Sometimes has just a ID slide or shows "No signal."
KDJT analog 33 - Has cross hatching interference. (This could be coming from KSDI analog 33 in Fresno although not a trace of KSDI-LD on 44 is detectable here.)
K38JP-LD 38 - Link issues. Pixelates when my TV says 0 errors.
KMMD-LD 39 - Has two dashed lines on the picture. See attachment. What is going on there?

There are a few more LPTV stations down there but I can't receive them.

Don't the owners of these stations ever look at them?

The one exception is KMUV analog 23 a Telemundo station. They now ID like a normal station and have partnered with KION to air a local newscast. I expect they will transition to digital on RF 21 eventually.

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post #10865 of 11497 Old 07-13-2014, 02:26 PM
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KTNC is having trouble with their link this afternoon. Lots of pixelating and long periods with no picture at all. We've had some strange conditions recently but they are very strange today. Still experiencing strong ducting conditions even in the middle of the afternoon.

Chuck
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post #10866 of 11497 Old 07-13-2014, 02:58 PM
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Signals are down somewhat from normal this afternoon, but not as bad as a couple days ago.

I see what you mean, Chuck, about KTNC. Their signal is holding steady at 23 dB SNR, but the picture on all three sub-channels is going from solid picture to black with a lot of pixelating in between. I noticed that all three are not pixelating the same amount at the same time, so they must be receiving three separate feeds. I wonder what means they use to get their signals from the studio to Mt. Diablo. Would microwave react like that?

Maybe that's what the KGO translator signal looks like when the receiver at Mt. Allison loses the channel 7 signal.

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post #10867 of 11497 Old 07-13-2014, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Is 1.82 Mbps too low?
SHF
Good question. I checked other stations and most, except KAXT 1, are allowing more bandwidth than that. Most are 2.5 Mb or better.

From watching KEMO 50.2, the quality of the picture there varies a lot depending on what show is being broadcast. Some look really bad, while others look okay. Some of the real old movies look like they're out of focus.

As Chuck pointed out in his post about Salinas/Monterey stations, I don't think a lot of these stations monitor their sub-channels very closely. You see some pretty terrible looking pictures and hear some very bad audio at times.

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post #10868 of 11497 Old 07-13-2014, 05:28 PM
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Over the years I've been accumulating the identifications of most of the stations I've received here. I made a simple web page listing all the stations linked to an image.

http://www.aa6g.org/OTA_TV/otatv.html

They're listed by virtual channel. Some of the IDs are not what I really wanted but some stations refuse to identify with a call sign and/or channel number. I noticed that KNTV never shows KNTV 11, just Bay Area NBC. Don't they have to identify once an hour? I'm only completely missing KCNS which I just overlooked. Next time it's in I'll get it. If it's not on my list then I have not received it.

Chuck
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post #10869 of 11497 Old 07-13-2014, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
...
I noticed that KNTV never shows KNTV 11, just Bay Area NBC. Don't they have to identify once an hour? I'm only completely missing KCNS which I just overlooked. Next time it's in I'll get it. If it's not on my list then I have not received it.

Chuck
KNTV identifies themselves many times each second.

http://www.rabbitears.info/screencap.../35280-0_0.htm

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Originally Posted by
Program Association Table

PAT Version Number: 1
Transport Stream ID: 397 (0x018d)

PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 3 KNTV HD
PMT PID 64 (0x0040) - Program 4 COZI-TV


Transport Stream ID: 397 (0x018d) uniquely identifies the station. (DTV TSID:)


http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....ility_id=35280



KGO RF 7 and RF 35 have the same Transport Stream ID and KTVU RF 44 RF 48 also.


TSID list on RabbitEars:


http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsandends.php?request=tsid

SHF

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post #10870 of 11497 Old 07-13-2014, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
KNTV identifies themselves many times each second.

Maybe I'm just way out of date but it used to be that stations had to ID once an hour, i.e. put it on the screen. Not anymore? The data in the digital stream is not used by all TVs when you just tune to a station. This morning I was receiving KRCR on 7 but my TV said it was KGO.

Chuck
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post #10871 of 11497 Old 07-13-2014, 10:18 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station...#United_States

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Originally Posted by
Another way a television station can transmit its legal identification is to do it continuously by putting readable text in the vertical blanking interval
In Googleing TSID earlier I discovered that the TSID was specified for analog transmissions.

KNTV's TSID for analog was 396, the Digital TSID is 397.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....ility_id=35280

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post #10872 of 11497 Old 07-14-2014, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Over the years I've been accumulating the identifications of most of the stations I've received here. I made a simple web page listing all the stations linked to an image.

http://www.aa6g.org/OTA_TV/otatv.html
Beautiful job, Chuck! I've gone through the first 20 channels, but plan to go back and look at the rest later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
They're listed by virtual channel. Some of the IDs are not what I really wanted but some stations refuse to identify with a call sign and/or channel number. I noticed that KNTV never shows KNTV 11, just Bay Area NBC. Don't they have to identify once an hour? I'm only completely missing KCNS which I just overlooked. Next time it's in I'll get it. If it's not on my list then I have not received it.

Chuck
I noticed that KNTV introduced a new ID recently where they now identify themselves as "Channel 11, Cable 3 and 703"
KOFY has been showing their cable ID as 713 now.

I'm not sure what the FCC ID requirements are now. Maybe the PCIP is a legal ID. I know in the analog days we had to show a visual ID on the hour, or close to the hour during a normal break in programming. I remember having to super the KGO ID for three seconds on the hour during programming such as sports where there wasn't a break near the hour. I have noticed that KPIX and KNTV super their ID at various times now. KNTV does it frequently during the start of the late night shows.

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post #10873 of 11497 Old 07-14-2014, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Thanks! Looks like nothing has changed with the once per hour requirement. All the full power stations seem to identify but there are a lot of LP stations not IDing. And the ones that do are often sporadic about it. I've never seen K38JP identify which is why my image shows ESNE, the programming they are transmitting. The new KEZT seems to be a translator for KUVS and was showing KUVS 19 this morning.

Chuck
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post #10874 of 11497 Old 07-14-2014, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Thanks! Looks like nothing has changed with the once per hour requirement. All the full power stations seem to identify but there are a lot of LP stations not IDing. And the ones that do are often sporadic about it. I've never seen K38JP identify which is why my image shows ESNE, the programming they are transmitting. The new KEZT seems to be a translator for KUVS and was showing KUVS 19 this morning.

Chuck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
there are a lot of LP stations not IDing.
They have no requirement to do so. They are considered poor and unfunded.

As of May 2014 the list of LP stations filing for the final analog turnoff is still dismal.

The FCC has not OCRed many documents. If Google says there may be information in a ~ 100 page document I will not read beyond page five or so.

SHF


SHF
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post #10875 of 11497 Old 07-14-2014, 07:02 PM
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KEMO got the message or I sampled at a bad time

After fixing the HDHomeRun instructions I sampled KEMO twice today and the 50.2 rate was > 2.5 Mbps the first time and > 5 Mbps the second time.

So the 1.82 Mbps rate for 50.2 was when the main 50.1 stream needed more bits and was given them.

SHF
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post #10876 of 11497 Old 07-15-2014, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I noticed that KNTV introduced a new ID recently where they now identify themselves as "Channel 11, Cable 3 and 703"
Larry
KNTV & KVIE are the worst.
KNTV still has a bay area ota identity crisis. Constant changes with nothing that sticks. (or lasts)
KVIE has completely dumped the number 6 ..... or anything mentioning channel six.
At one time, they were calling "6-2" cable channel 7 ....huh
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post #10877 of 11497 Old 07-15-2014, 01:23 AM
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I got a good chuckle a few years ago when KNTV was calling itself NBC 3... exactly the same thing as KCRA was calling itself. Duh?

KTVU, KRON and KGO have been rock solid in their IDs over the years, but KPIX has wavered between KPIX 5 and CBS 5.

KQED's IDs are the same for all three of their stations, KQED, KQEH or KQET, so one is never sure which one you're watching... KQED, KQED+, KQED World, etc.

I still think that they should have never gone with the virtual channel idea. Stations should use their actual transmitter channel number when IDing themselves. We'd all get used to it in no time, but I doubt that is ever going to happen. We'd still have KGO 7 and KICU 36, but what's wrong with KTVU 44, KRON 38, KPIX 29, KQED 30, KNTV 12, etc.

KCSM tried calling themselves KCSM 43, but the FCC said they had to use their analog channel number.

Now we have messes like KDTV 14, KTNC 14, KTNC 42, KAXT 42, KAXT1, which can all be quite confusing at times.

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post #10878 of 11497 Old 07-15-2014, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
KQED's IDs are the same for all three of their stations, KQED, KQEH or KQET, so one is never sure which one you're watching... KQED, KQED+, KQED World, etc.
The IDs I have for KQED and KQEH are a list of the three stations with the one you're watching at the top of the list. I don't know if this holds true for all their IDs. I don't have an ID for KQET. I need to work on that one the next time it is in.

Quote:
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KCSM tried calling themselves KCSM 43, but the FCC said they had to use their analog channel number.
I wonder why the FCC cares about that? KBSV was analog 23 but they're using 15 now. I believe KACA was analog 61 but now use 34. Maybe this is another case where the FCC doesn't care about insignificant stations.

I did capture an ID for KNTV where they have KNTV on the slide. They used the smallest almost transparent font for that part like they're trying to hide it.

Chuck

Edit: I saw the ID on KQET this morning and it showed KQED with the call signs of all three stations. There was no indication which station I was viewing.

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post #10879 of 11497 Old 07-15-2014, 02:24 PM
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Subchannel change

TheCoolTV is now on 2 KTLN subchannels, 68.2 and 68.4.
It looks like 68.2 is a straight mirror of 68.4.
However, earlier today I noticed an E/I program that was only airing on 68.2.
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post #10880 of 11497 Old 07-15-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
KQED's IDs are the same for all three of their stations, KQED, KQEH or KQET, so one is never sure which one you're watching... KQED, KQED+, KQED World, etc.
They do this because the same program may be on KQED 30.1, KQEH 54.2 and KQET 25.1 at the exact same time, or delayed on 30.3 or 54.3 or ... It's just one master control for all of KQED. Inc. streams.

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KCSM tried calling themselves KCSM 43, but the FCC said they had to use their analog channel number.
It was worse, the FCC FORCED KCSM to put an analog RF 60 transmitter on the air. It just had sufficient power to cover their city of license.

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post #10881 of 11497 Old 07-17-2014, 12:28 PM
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The FCC granted the application for K03IC to operate 3W from Mt. St. Helena. This is another of Keith's One Ministries stations.

I wondered why there would be a station on RF 3 while KFTY was on RF 2 from the same location? I checked KFTY and I see there is a construction permit to move KFTY to a location WNW of Sacramento at almost 1900'. It would still be 3KW omni directional but it would have very good coverage all over Sacramento.

I further wondered if I will be able to receive this. I checked the heading for KFTY and it is 294.2 degrees. Not a great direction for me. But KEZT and KBTV are on a tower in Sacramento with a nearly identical heading of 294.0 degrees. I ran a path profile for KFTY and added in a line for KEZT and KBTV. See attachment. I can receive KEZT and KBTV under favorable conditions but the biggest problem is severe co-channel interference to both of those stations. The spectrum analyzer says they're almost always strong enough to decode if it weren't for the interference. Even though KFTY is 38.4 miles farther away and therefore will lose about 4 dB due to distance, the path is better, barley 2 edge compared to 3 edges for KEZT/KBTV. I would expect that channel 2 will refract over the mountains better than UHF. Although it looks like a terrible angle from the last ridge to my antennas, it measures about 1.3 degrees, not much worse than I have to Walnut Grove now.

If Keith is still reading this, when do you expect these changes to occur?

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post #10882 of 11497 Old 07-17-2014, 03:23 PM
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I've had the antennas pointed a Chico after I discovered that some of the stations up there go in and out on a short term basis much of the day. I'm seeing KHSL, KCVU and KNVN but the signals are all very unstable. I've never paid much attention to these stations so this might be the way it is all the time. The attached terrain plot shows about 8 edges it has to refract over. I have no idea how any signal at all ever gets here. It probably accounts for the instability though.

The last time I checked KHSL, 12.1 was CBS HD and 12.2 was CW SD, same as KION. Now they are doing the same thing as KSBW is with NBC and ABC except 12.1 is CBS 1080i and 12.2 is CW 720p. I checked KION and CW is still 480i except that now it automatically appears full screen.

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post #10883 of 11497 Old 07-17-2014, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTnA View Post
TheCoolTV is now on 2 KTLN subchannels, 68.2 and 68.4.
It looks like 68.2 is a straight mirror of 68.4.
However, earlier today I noticed an E/I program that was only airing on 68.2.
Thanks for the info, OTnA. I checked it out last night, and they have even changed the PSIP on 68.2 to The Cool TV. I'll have to keep an eye on them to see if they make any other changes.

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post #10884 of 11497 Old 07-17-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
The FCC granted the application for K03IC to operate 3W from Mt. St. Helena. This is another of Keith's One Ministries stations.
Chuck
So this would be a translator of the Mt. Tam translator?

I am still waiting for KTVJ to appear on channel 4 from Mt. Tam.

Larry

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post #10885 of 11497 Old 07-17-2014, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I've had the antennas pointed a Chico after I discovered that some of the stations up there go in and out on a short term basis much of the day. I'm seeing KHSL, KCVU and KNVN but the signals are all very unstable.
Chuck
KCVU and KNVN are the two stations I've received in the past, at 155 and 175 miles away, and the only ones beyond my 65 mile range for KEMO. I haven't seen any signals from them in a long time, though.

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post #10886 of 11497 Old 07-17-2014, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
So this would be a translator of the Mt. Tam translator?

I am still waiting for KTVJ to appear on channel 4 from Mt. Tam.

Larry

I don't know how all those stations are connected together. Isn't KFTY getting it's signal from KKPM on the Sutter Buttes? The new location would be even closer to KKPM. Maybe Keith will publish a diagram showing how all the stations are connected someday.

I'd like to see KTVJ come on the air. I think I have a very good path to Mt. Tam based on how much interference K03HY causes KCSO. I'm a little skeptical though since KTVJ was supposed to be on the air years ago. The only positive sign I see is the recent granting of the application for KTVJ to share the K03HY antenna. I wonder what the programming might be?

BTW, with all the Sierra thunderstorms the last few days, I'm getting a real taste of how lightning strikes mess up low VHF. They even impact the weaker high VHF stations.

Chuck
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post #10887 of 11497 Old 07-17-2014, 06:35 PM
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I've had the antennas pointed a Chico after I discovered that some of the stations up there go in and out on a short term basis much of the day. I'm seeing KHSL, KCVU and KNVN but the signals are all very unstable. I've never paid much attention to these stations so this might be the way it is all the time. I have no idea how any signal at all ever gets here.
Chuck
There is also some analog stations coming from the same transmitter farm area.
From my memory working on the Roseville antennas Analogs were 16,17,19, and twenty something. Around 3 to 5 analogs.
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post #10888 of 11497 Old 07-17-2014, 08:40 PM
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There is also some analog stations coming from the same transmitter farm area.
From my memory working on the Roseville antennas Analogs were 16,17,19, and twenty something. Around 3 to 5 analogs.
I may have seen Bakersfield on 17 before the conversion but nothing on 16 or 17 for a long time now.

Unless the FCC changes its mind, analog will be history in little more than a year. I expect stations requesting extra time to build their digital stations will go on longer than that.

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post #10889 of 11497 Old 07-18-2014, 01:35 AM
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I witnessed a couple of interesting situations tonight.

First the signal from low power channel 8, KDTS 52, from Mt. Diablo was doing real crazy things tonight, varying from 9 dB (lowest level seen) to 19 dB over the course of just a few minutes. It would go up and down very quickly from one extreme to the other. I also noted that they have finally dropped the supered "BOB-4" from the picture.

The other interesting thing, again high VHF, was watching the signals from KVIE 6 (RF9) and KXTV 10. They both were varying quite a bit, from about 14 dB, below cliff edge, to 20 dB, but they weren't in sync. Since they're next to each other in frequency I'd expect them to kind of go up and down together, and that's usually what happens, but tonight KVIE would be high and KXTV would be below the cliff edge, and then KXTV would rise in strength and KVIE would go down. I watched this go on for at least 20 minutes. Sometimes they'd both be up at 20 dB, other times they'd both be low. KVIE never dropped below the cliff edge though. It got down to 15.9, there was some pixelation and the signal went back up. KXTV was making bigger swings. I checked later and KVIE was there, but KXTV was not.

All of the distant UHF stations seemed to be coming in at or slightly above normal levels tonight and weren't varying much at all.

Can anyone explain why two channels right next to each other would be acting so much differently from each other? Maybe whatever was affecting 9 and 10 was also causing the weirdness on channel 8. ? ? ?

Larry
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post #10890 of 11497 Old 07-18-2014, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I checked KION and CW is still 480i except that now it automatically appears full screen.
Last I saw, KION is also carrying KMUV in 1080i on 23-1, which would mean three HD feeds on that transmitter if they put CW up in HD.

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I still think that they should have never gone with the virtual channel idea. Stations should use their actual transmitter channel number when IDing themselves. We'd all get used to it in no time, but I doubt that is ever going to happen. We'd still have KGO 7 and KICU 36, but what's wrong with KTVU 44, KRON 38, KPIX 29, KQED 30, KNTV 12, etc.
Channel numbers in general don't mean anything, so other than knowing what antenna to use, using the actual channel is silly now. Perhaps we should have them identify by center frequency? KGO 179? KRON 617? Or by pilot carrier frequency! KGO 176.31 and KRON 614.31. That will be much less confusing to the average person than 7-1 and 4-1.

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KCSM tried calling themselves KCSM 43, but the FCC said they had to use their analog channel number.
I don't remember why, but KCSM wasn't allowed to turn off their analog 60 signal the way so many other above-51 stations were allowed to turn off their analog signals. Other stations that turned off their analogs before PSIP was mandated by the FCC kept those channels, such as WMCN and WNVT.

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Now we have messes like KDTV 14, KTNC 14, KTNC 42, KAXT 42, KAXT1, which can all be quite confusing at times.
The average person doesn't know that KTNC is on 14 or that KAXT is on 42. It's only confusing to people like us who know.

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I wonder why the FCC cares about that? KBSV was analog 23 but they're using 15 now. I believe KACA was analog 61 but now use 34. Maybe this is another case where the FCC doesn't care about insignificant stations.
KACA was analog on 34 before their transition, at least according to FCC records. As such, that station should map to 34-1.

As to KBSV, for the longest time, it had no PSIP at all. But the TSReader data I have from October 2013 shows it correctly mapping to 23-1.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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