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post #11041 of 12425 Old 08-26-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
There's another religious channel on channel 3 up in Santa Rosa, K03IC. Does anyone know if this is one of Keith's stations, too? Anyone in Santa Rosa able to view the station and tell us what's on it?
K03IC is one of Keith's stations so I'd expect it to be the same.

Chuck
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post #11042 of 12425 Old 08-26-2014, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
It's going to be interesting to see what happens with KTVJ!
Larry
Hi Larry,
I'm working with John to get KTVJ back on the air. Yes, the One Ministries, Inc. stations are all linked together. I get Daystar off of Galaxy 19. I let Daystar know that channel 8 is off the air. I'm adding more sub-channels this weekend. My new mux from Anywave is finally coming. I work a full time job at Keysight in Santa Rosa and work on the TV stations in the evenings and on weekends. One Ministries has no debt, and we're just starting out this year with the TV stations.

Blessings,
Keith
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post #11043 of 12425 Old 08-26-2014, 12:11 PM
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Tivo to offer $50 OTA DVR

Available Sept. 14 at select Best Buy stores.

Here's a link to more info:

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/tivo-roa...ews-19379.html
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post #11044 of 12425 Old 08-26-2014, 12:24 PM
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For $15 per month, provided you get decent OTA.
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post #11045 of 12425 Old 08-26-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
...

Stephen, how do signal levels compare, main antennas vs auxiliary antennas, down in your area?

Larry
I consider Toast0 to be in my area so consider his charts to be mine. He is ~ 5.5 miles to the South East from me, I am ~ 36.4 miles South East from Sutro.

Looking at KMTP today it appears that they went to the AUX antenna yesterday and did not return to their main antenna.

----------------------------------------------

Why is KTVU Utilization changing so much compared to the other stations?


Note: The chart below is from KTVU RF 48 and is not from Sutro, KTVU RF 44 has the same utilization.

Move your mouse over a chart line to see the actual readings or click on a color box to the upper right to see all the points.

Toast0 may have increased his sample times to ~ 30 minutes apart.

SHF


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post #11046 of 12425 Old 08-26-2014, 07:08 PM
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Checking the stations return to the main antennas on Sutro today using Toast0's charts, I can possibly see problems for all stations.

It is hard to tell with samples ~ 30 minutes apart.

SHF
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post #11047 of 12425 Old 08-27-2014, 01:48 AM
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Stephen... What is "Utilization" on the graph? You asked why KTVU's Utilization is changing so much compared to other stations, and I have no idea what Utilization is.

Larry

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post #11048 of 12425 Old 08-27-2014, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Stephen... What is "Utilization" on the graph? You asked why KTVU's Utilization is changing so much compared to other stations, and I have no idea what Utilization is.

Larry
Quote:
○ ut = utilization percentage (100% is filled to capacity)
It is a measure of the frames per second actually sent compared to the maximum the station can send (Actually any station).

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8VSB
Quote:
net bit rate of 19.39 Mbit/s of usable data.
KCSM is right at the limit while KMTP is quite low. That means that KMTP could add another stream and still have the quality of the other streams remain the same.

Look at KGO VC 7 RF 7 and KGO VC 7 RF 35. RF 35 cannot have a higher utilization than RF 7 because it is decoding the ATSC signal from RF 7 and encoding it and sending it out on RF 35. If the signal from RF 7 is lost, RF 35 has nothing to send. That's how we can tell if the RF 35 has lost the signal from RF 7, the rest of the graph for RF 35 is about the signal generated by the translator.

All the other stations pad their streams with null frames, KTVU is not.

SHF

Last edited by SFischer1; 08-27-2014 at 12:16 PM.
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post #11049 of 12425 Old 08-27-2014, 03:18 PM
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Thanks for the info on Utilization. I learned something new.

Larry

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post #11050 of 12425 Old 08-28-2014, 11:49 AM
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Hi Guys,

I'd like your help in combating the precedent being set by GritTV and EscapeTV, i.e. broadcasting 4:3 cropped movies within a 16:9 box. It's bad enough that they choose to show the 4:3 version of the film, but to then display it within the 16:9 box, crushing it vertically, is just abominable.

I have set upon a one man quest, attempting to alter this policy decision, but one voice isn't enough. If you care about OTA, and care about film as a medium and an art form, please add your voice to mine.

GritTV (includes EscapeTV) has a contact email: grit-info@katzbroadcasting.com

Let them know that if they can't broadcast a movie in the OAR format, the least they can do is to not broadcast it in squished format! Let them know this is unacceptable. If this isn't changed, I fear that more stations will make the same stupid decision ... filling the screen and the picture be damned!

Thanks ... and pass this email on to your friends!
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post #11051 of 12425 Old 08-28-2014, 12:13 PM
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Consider it done. Thank you for taking the initiative RayGuy....
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post #11052 of 12425 Old 08-28-2014, 06:16 PM
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Done here, too, Ray. Grit is not the only service that doesn't show their programs in the correct format. If you scan around the channels you'll find several stations where the picture is too thin, making everyone look like bean poles, or stretched, like what Grit is doing, making everyone fat. I've commented to some of the others, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Larry

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post #11053 of 12425 Old 08-29-2014, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Done here, too, Ray. Grit is not the only service that doesn't show their programs in the correct format. If you scan around the channels you'll find several stations where the picture is too thin, making everyone look like bean poles, or stretched, like what Grit is doing, making everyone fat. I've commented to some of the others, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Larry
Thanks for the support! Yes, I have noticed the "skinny" Asians on certain channels! Just thought they were eating a lot of bean curd .... I jest, I jest ... Actually, I have been known to watch an occasional closed captioned Asian Historical Drama, but not on those channels.
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post #11054 of 12425 Old 08-29-2014, 09:21 PM
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If all diginets issued their affiliates a handbook to proper setup of their network, then OAR should not be a problem. Assuming the engineer and management staff can read and follow written instructions. Wait, I see a flaw.

Wanting a strong FCC to say no to the Wireless lobby. Keep the tv broadcast band for ota television broadcasters.
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post #11055 of 12425 Old 08-30-2014, 12:21 PM
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Maigret streaming using normal player: Alternate player removed the outermost black columns.


This is right from the owner so no stations involved.


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post #11056 of 12425 Old 08-30-2014, 07:55 PM
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Escape and Grit

After doing new scans for requesting "Grit" and "Escape" to be added to Schedules Direct and Tribune Media Services I decided to attach the scans here.

I receive most of the stations in the SF Bay area but Larry's antennas also pick up Walnut Grove. The path from KGO to KCRA is below, close to Larry's path. He has his scans online.




The above is for the curve of the Earth. How does he get anything. He is much lower than KGO on the left.



SHF
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post #11057 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 12:16 AM
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I wrote an email to the folks at Grit a few days ago. Today I received the following email in return from Grit-Info@katzbroadcasting.com:

"The network originates in 16 x 9 HD, but some of our affiliates carry us
in 4 x 3 SD. You may wish to adjust your TV's aspect ratio to "16 x 9" or
"zoom" to enhance your viewing experience."

If we adjust the picture from 4:3 to 16:9 it just makes it even more stretched. There's no setting on my TV that will correct their stretched picture to make it look normal. I don't have an "Unstretch" position. LOL Apparently the local stations have to do something to correct this, so now it's time to write to Univison which owns both KDTV 14 and KFSF 66.

Larry

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post #11058 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 12:33 AM
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I'm not sure what you're trying to point out with your graph, Stephen, showing the path from KGO to KCRA. Please explain. The highest point between here and Walnut Grove is about 1000 feet at the East Bay Hills. My antennas are at 340 feet; KCRA's antenna is at 1900 feet.

If you're trying to ask how I get KCRA here with KGO on the same channel, it's because KCRA's signal is stronger. Prior to KGO's translator coming on the air I used to get KCRA 100% of the time with a signal of 20 to 22 dB SNR with the CM4228 pointed at Walnut Grove. When KGO came up on channel 35, KCRA's signal dropped to 14 to 16 dB. KGO brought up the Signal to Noise level causing KCRA to drop way down. I still get KCRA when conditions are good, but much of the time the signal is below the cliff edge. I have never received KGO's signal on channel 35 here strong enough to produce a picture. It's always weaker than KCRA no matter where I point the antenna.

Larry

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post #11059 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 08:42 AM
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Since I know where Larry is I used the Path Profiler to plot the exact path. It shows his elevation as 344'. I attached the profile below. I removed the direct red line and added the RF path in blue taking into account KCRA's antenna height of 1905'. The effective height of the hill the signal crosses is a bit over 2000'. The actual height of the peak when viewed in "Flat Earth" is about 1600'.

The path may look bad but the terrain is extremely exaggerated and it's just a 1 edge path. Many 1 edge paths are not that difficult as long as the refraction angle isn't too steep. I don't think you'd get KCRA if you were in the flats of Berkeley.

My terrain plot to Sutro is worse than what Larry has to Walnut Grove and I still get some stations despite a 2 edge path.

Chuck
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post #11060 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 09:16 AM
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Very fascinating depictions provided, thank you.

Out of curiosity, do any of you tilt your antennas in response to these realities, and if so, what is the logic employed? I have found meaningful SNR improvements with an upward tilt, now at about 10 degrees. I'm not exactly sure what degree of inclination will be most beneficial, but I wonder if such an analysis would help better explain...
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post #11061 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyB1966 View Post
Very fascinating depictions provided, thank you.

Out of curiosity, do any of you tilt your antennas in response to these realities, and if so, what is the logic employed? I have found meaningful SNR improvements with an upward tilt, now at about 10 degrees. I'm not exactly sure what degree of inclination will be most beneficial, but I wonder if such an analysis would help better explain...
The vertical beamwidth of an antenna is about the same as the horizontal beamwidth so tilting the antenna up cannot improve the signal strength. If tilting the antenna improves the SNR it is because multipath is being rejected better. There's no way to predict this and what works for one person won't for another.

Chuck
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post #11062 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 09:57 AM
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Thank you Chuck. I guess the experimentation will simply continue on its current path...

I'm wedging different sized objects into the bottom mast clamp in order angle it upwards. Rather crude, but it's doing the trick I suppose. Are any of you aware of a device either designed for this, or something that can be used to better incrementally make such adjustments?

I'm getting some good info from this thread, and in post #10 there is a tilter, but much more elaborate than what I seek:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=106196
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post #11063 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyB1966 View Post
Thank you Chuck. I guess the experimentation will simply continue on its current path...

I'm wedging different sized objects into the bottom mast clamp in order angle it upwards. Rather crude, but it's doing the trick I suppose. Are any of you aware of a device either designed for this, or something that can be used to better incrementally make such adjustments?

I'm getting some good info from this thread, and in post #10 there is a tilter, but much more elaborate than what I seek:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=106196

You might be able to make a boom to mast clamp that had holes drilled or was slotted to allow tilting. Other than that fancy tilter you linked to, I'm not aware of anything else.

Chuck
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post #11064 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 10:44 AM
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Chuck, I just had a novel idea of sorts...

From an earlier RCA ANT751 purchase, I'm not using the provided J mount, which I think I can be sandwiched around the 1" galvanized pipe / mast.

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post #11065 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
...
KCRA's antenna height of 1905'.
...
Chuck
Almost 2000', I remember the towers being high. Either they raised the towers since I was very close to them (~1975) or my memory is bad.

I5 is the closest (6/2010) since then, on my 333 Mile round trip to get a CM4228HD at Fry's Roseville.

SHF
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post #11066 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 01:57 PM
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Almost 2000', I remember the towers being high. Either they raised the towers since I was very close to them (~1975) or my memory is bad.

I5 is the closest (6/2010) since then, on my 333 Mile round trip to get a CM4228HD at Fry's Roseville.

SHF

From what I dug up in a quick search, only the 1500' candelabra tower was up in the 1970's. The 3 towers near 2000' each were built around 1985. The 1500' tower is now a back-up site for KCRA, KOVR and KMAX. KCRA was on that tower before the transition and it had terrible multipath here.

Chuck
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post #11067 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I wrote an email to the folks at Grit a few days ago. Today I received the following email in return from Grit-Info@katzbroadcasting.com:

"The network originates in 16 x 9 HD, but some of our affiliates carry us
in 4 x 3 SD. You may wish to adjust your TV's aspect ratio to "16 x 9" or
"zoom" to enhance your viewing experience."

If we adjust the picture from 4:3 to 16:9 it just makes it even more stretched. There's no setting on my TV that will correct their stretched picture to make it look normal. I don't have an "Unstretch" position. LOL Apparently the local stations have to do something to correct this, so now it's time to write to Univison which owns both KDTV 14 and KFSF 66.

Larry
The word "clueless" comes to mind, as well as other. less forum appropriate, words .... Actually, if the local station WERE using the 4:3 format, that WOULD solve the problem, by "unsquishing" the picture back to it's 4:3 self ....

Somebody needs to put these folks into a room and force them to watch their own crap for a period not to exceed their ability to remain sane. Padded cells on standby ....

This response tells me that they ARE sending the picture in the squished format 16:9 to 16:9. As I suspected, it's a policy decision at headquarters, not at Univision. I guess we might be able to get Univision to "fix" it at their end, but the problem is apparently in the Grit/Escape management decision-making.

Since you have their attention (they ignored me), perhaps you could respond, telling them that both SF stations are broadcasting in 16:9. Please ask them directly if they are sending the signal to their affiliates in a manner that crushes the picture vertically? Sounds like they don't want to admit it and are putting the blame on the local broadcaster. It also explains why some of the affiliates are broadcasting in 4:3, it's an attempt to fix the aspect ratio of the picture!

FYI, I sent an email to these folks a few days ago .. no response (and I don't think it's their problem, anyway, as they are just sending out what they are receiving):

kfsfpublicfile@univision.net

Last edited by RayGuy; 08-31-2014 at 02:56 PM.
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post #11068 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 03:25 PM
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I never would have known anyone was having a problem with Escape and Grit. I checked Escape on KDTV and it's in 16:9 window box. No stretching issues. I can zoom it to full screen 16:9. Escape on KUVS is full screen 16:9. Again no issues. Grit on KTFK is 16:9 full screen. Again no issues. I can't receive KFSF here to check that one.

I guess it depends on how your TV handles the formatting.

Chuck
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post #11069 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 03:50 PM
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Talking UniMás doing it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I never would have known anyone was having a problem with Escape and Grit. I checked Escape on KDTV and it's in 16:9 window box. No stretching issues. I can zoom it to full screen 16:9. Escape on KUVS is full screen 16:9. Again no issues. Grit on KTFK is 16:9 full screen. Again no issues. I can't receive KFSF here to check that one.

I guess it depends on how your TV handles the formatting.

Chuck
Long ago I figured out 16:9 programs sent in SD 4:3 format so nothing is lost.

VLC Media Player Right Click "Video / Crop / 16:9" and the original 16:9 program fills my 16:9 screen. Perhaps 85% of the programs I watch. I have ~ five other methods to do the same.

The TSReader output for the UniMás stations is attached. Grit and Escape are in SD 4:3 format.

Chuck posted when I was 1/2 way composing my post to say the same thing.

SHF
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post #11070 of 12425 Old 08-31-2014, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
From what I dug up in a quick search, only the 1500' candelabra tower was up in the 1970's. The 3 towers near 2000' each were built around 1985. The 1500' tower is now a back-up site for KCRA, KOVR and KMAX. KCRA was on that tower before the transition and it had terrible multipath here.

Chuck
A look from up top in the tower....0:40 on

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