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post #11071 of 11087 Old Yesterday, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I never would have known anyone was having a problem with Escape and Grit. I checked Escape on KDTV and it's in 16:9 window box. No stretching issues. I can zoom it to full screen 16:9. Escape on KUVS is full screen 16:9. Again no issues. Grit on KTFK is 16:9 full screen. Again no issues. I can't receive KFSF here to check that one.

I guess it depends on how your TV handles the formatting.

Chuck
They sometimes show 2.35 films cropped for 16:9 TV. In those cases, the picture looks normal. Unfortunately, that's one out of every 4 or 5 films they show. At one point this morning, I saw the same thing and wondered if they had fixed it .. nope, just a coincidence.

Give them another look at another time.
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post #11072 of 11087 Old Yesterday, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Since I know where Larry is I used the Path Profiler to plot the exact path. It shows his elevation as 344'. I attached the profile below. I removed the direct red line and added the RF path in blue taking into account KCRA's antenna height of 1905'. The effective height of the hill the signal crosses is a bit over 2000'. The actual height of the peak when viewed in "Flat Earth" is about 1600'.

The path may look bad but the terrain is extremely exaggerated and it's just a 1 edge path. Many 1 edge paths are not that difficult as long as the refraction angle isn't too steep. I don't think you'd get KCRA if you were in the flats of Berkeley.

My terrain plot to Sutro is worse than what Larry has to Walnut Grove and I still get some stations despite a 2 edge path.

Chuck
Wow... that's a surprise! I checked various maps and the highest point I found was at about 1000 feet. I sure missed the 2000 foot points! I'm rather amazed then that I get several of the stations from Walnut Grove so well. KMAX RF 21 is solid in here 99% of the time with signals in the 23 to 25 dB range, KQCA RF 46 is also pretty reliable with signals in the 19 to 21 dB range (like where KCRA used to be before KGO put the translator on channel 35) and KVIE 9, KXTV 10 and KOVR 25 are all fairly reliable.

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post #11073 of 11087 Old Yesterday, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB1966 View Post
Very fascinating depictions provided, thank you.

Out of curiosity, do any of you tilt your antennas in response to these realities, and if so, what is the logic employed? I have found meaningful SNR improvements with an upward tilt, now at about 10 degrees. I'm not exactly sure what degree of inclination will be most beneficial, but I wonder if such an analysis would help better explain...

I'm wedging different sized objects into the bottom mast clamp in order angle it upwards. Rather crude, but it's doing the trick I suppose. Are any of you aware of a device either designed for this, or something that can be used to better incrementally make such adjustments?
Tony... I've tried playing around with antenna tilting since the antennas on Sutro tower are at about a 20 degree angle up from the level point here. It didn't seem to make any difference in signal strength, but it did improve the signal quality with the antenna pointed up more directly at the transmitting antennas. Like Chuck said, it most likely helped get rid of multipath on some of the stations.

The antenna I was playing around with is the Antennas Direct S-15 UHF antenna and it had a slot on the antenna mount allowing you to tilt the antenna up and lock it in place. I don't know if a mount like that is available at a TV supply store, but you might want to check it out at a place such as Solid Signal.

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post #11074 of 11087 Old Yesterday, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
They sometimes show 2.35 films cropped for 16:9 TV. In those cases, the picture looks normal. Unfortunately, that's one out of every 4 or 5 films they show. At one point this morning, I saw the same thing and wondered if they had fixed it .. nope, just a coincidence.

Give them another look at another time.
When I first checked after your first post it was not clearly wrong, but made me pause about saying anything.

Today it was clearly right when I made my post after Chuck's.

I think you need to look further up the chain of processing to find the guilt party.

Grit and Escape do not have the equipment and people to process films or do anything much at all.

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Jonathan Katz, President and CEO of Katz Broadcasting which owns and operates the two new networks.
Even he could do nothing, he just obtained the rights to show the movies (And make money).

The films you see problems with may have been converted back when 4:3 was all that there was.

SHF
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post #11075 of 11087 Old Yesterday, 11:50 PM
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Ben... 888CallFCC... thanks for the video. Sitting here in my chair I still got stomach flutters when he tilted the camera down. I've had several opportunities to go up the elevator at Sutro Tower, but have always turned them down. I knew that once I was up at the top and stepped out of the elevator, I'd be standing on the cross-hatched support as you see in the Walnut Grove Tower video. I knew it would blow my mind, so I stayed safely on terra ferma. I hate heights!

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post #11076 of 11087 Old Today, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Ben... 888CallFCC... thanks for the video. Sitting here in my chair I still got stomach flutters when he tilted the camera down. I've had several opportunities to go up the elevator at Sutro Tower, but have always turned them down. I knew that once I was up at the top and stepped out of the elevator, I'd be standing on the cross-hatched support as you see in the Walnut Grove Tower video. I knew it would blow my mind, so I stayed safely on terra ferma. I hate heights!

Larry
Poor Larry! It's absolutely beautiful up there on a clear day....

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post #11077 of 11087 Old Today, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Tony... I've tried playing around with antenna tilting since the antennas on Sutro tower are at about a 20 degree angle up from the level point here. It didn't seem to make any difference in signal strength, but it did improve the signal quality with the antenna pointed up more directly at the transmitting antennas. Like Chuck said, it most likely helped get rid of multipath on some of the stations.

The antenna I was playing around with is the Antennas Direct S-15 UHF antenna and it had a slot on the antenna mount allowing you to tilt the antenna up and lock it in place. I don't know if a mount like that is available at a TV supply store, but you might want to check it out at a place such as Solid Signal.

Larry
Thanks for making the time to reply Larry. I did not know that Sutro antennas are angled up about 20 degrees. That, along with earth curvature for those further away, does seem to support why it might be beneficial to tilt antennas upward. My TV's tuner, nor others I have, like in the DVR, show signal strength and quality. I get SNRs, and those have been generally improved with this upward experimentation. I'm a little over 62 miles away from Sutro, per TV Fool...

Does one of your TVs or tuner boxes show signal strength and quality, or are you using a dedicated a tool to get such readings?

And thanks for mentioning Antennas Direct S-15. I'll ring AD to see if they might have any type of tilting mechanism. If not, I'll fab something-up...

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post #11078 of 11087 Old Today, 09:43 AM
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The Sutro antennas are not angled up. What Larry is saying, I think, is that the antennas, from his house are 20 degrees up. Meaning that he is located underneath Sutro and in it's shadow...
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post #11079 of 11087 Old Today, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post
The Sutro antennas are not angled up. What Larry is saying, I think, is that the antennas, from his house are 20 degrees up. Meaning that he is located underneath Sutro and in it's shadow...
Thank you. That makes more sense. A relative thing (Larry's receiving location versus Sutro's transmission location).
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post #11080 of 11087 Old Today, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
When I first checked after your first post it was not clearly wrong, but made me pause about saying anything.

Today it was clearly right when I made my post after Chuck's.

I think you need to look further up the chain of processing to find the guilt party.

Grit and Escape do not have the equipment and people to process films or do anything much at all.



Even he could do nothing, he just obtained the rights to show the movies (And make money).

The films you see problems with may have been converted back when 4:3 was all that there was.

SHF
Not exactly sure what you are saying, but if you are implying that the equipment is somehow faulty, you're barking up the wrong tree. If the equipment was faulty, there would be evidence of issues with other stations. Even if that wasn't the case, the proof is in the ads they show during the crushed movies, their aspect ratio is perfect. If it was the equipment, the ads would also be crushed.

Bottom line is that they are choosing to "fill the 16:9 screen" when showing 4:3 pictures.
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post #11081 of 11087 Old Today, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
They sometimes show 2.35 films cropped for 16:9 TV. In those cases, the picture looks normal. Unfortunately, that's one out of every 4 or 5 films they show. At one point this morning, I saw the same thing and wondered if they had fixed it .. nope, just a coincidence.

Give them another look at another time.
I did and you're right. Grit TV was improperly stretched this morning.

Chuck
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post #11082 of 11087 Old Today, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Wow... that's a surprise! I checked various maps and the highest point I found was at about 1000 feet. I sure missed the 2000 foot points! I'm rather amazed then that I get several of the stations from Walnut Grove so well. KMAX RF 21 is solid in here 99% of the time with signals in the 23 to 25 dB range, KQCA RF 46 is also pretty reliable with signals in the 19 to 21 dB range (like where KCRA used to be before KGO put the translator on channel 35) and KVIE 9, KXTV 10 and KOVR 25 are all fairly reliable.

Larry
I drew a line from your house to KCRA in Google Earth and it runs right over a ridge in the Oakland hills off of Grizzly Peak Blvd that has a building with a couple of communication towers on it. The elevation was 1700'.

The 2000' is only the result of the hill plus the effect of the curvature of the Earth added together.

Chuck
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post #11083 of 11087 Old Today, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
Not exactly sure what you are saying, but if you are implying that the equipment is somehow faulty, you're barking up the wrong tree. If the equipment was faulty, there would be evidence of issues with other stations. Even if that wasn't the case, the proof is in the ads they show during the crushed movies, their aspect ratio is perfect. If it was the equipment, the ads would also be crushed.

Bottom line is that they are choosing to "fill the 16:9 screen" when showing 4:3 pictures.
Correction KATZ Broadcasting does have someone doing film to video to digital.

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Seth Garcia

Program Editor at KATZ BROADCASTING
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sg3media

SHF
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post #11084 of 11087 Old Today, 12:47 PM
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Seth Garcia

Program Editor at KATZ BROADCASTING

http://www.linkedin.com/in/sg3media
Someone to blame! Thanks!
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post #11085 of 11087 Old Today, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I did and you're right. Grit TV was improperly stretched this morning.

Chuck
Good! The Fish Man was starting to make me feel like I was the only one with this issue. Please note the Linkedin address in his response to me below. Seems he may be the person to contact to get to the bottom of this.
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post #11086 of 11087 Old Today, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB1966 View Post
I'm a little over 62 miles away from Sutro, per TV Fool...

Does one of your TVs or tuner boxes show signal strength and quality, or are you using a dedicated a tool to get such readings?

And thanks for mentioning Antennas Direct S-15. I'll ring AD to see if they might have any type of tilting mechanism. If not, I'll fab something-up...
If you're receiving solid reception from Sutro at 62 miles out, you're antenna set up is working great. Congratulations!

I use my Sony TV for reading signal strength and quality. It shows both the SNR reading in dB and the quality on a 0 to 100% scale. My HomeRun HD receiver also shows strength and quality, but they're both shown in a percentage scale, so you don't know the actual strength.

Larry

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post #11087 of 11087 Old Today, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post
The Sutro antennas are not angled up. What Larry is saying, I think, is that the antennas, from his house are 20 degrees up. Meaning that he is located underneath Sutro and in it's shadow...
Correct!

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