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post #11191 of 11217 Old 09-15-2014, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Is this part of why you have said, if I remember correctly, that "normal reception" occurs when the air is mixed up. As our normal weather in the SF Bay Area is to have a temperature inversion, we seldom have "normal reception" and in my case perhaps better than "normal reception" most of the time.
I have the opposite situation. I'm higher than the Walnut Grove transmitters. Although there is no steadfast rule when it comes to this, taken over the long term I have better reception from transmitters located higher than I am.
Salinas, Mt. St. Helena, Mt. Daiblo and Fremont are all higher than I am and tend to have more enhanced periods than degraded periods. Sutro Tower, Mt. San Bruno and Walnut Grove are all lower than I am and tend to have more degraded periods than enhanced periods.

But there are exceptions. KACA and KBTV now on channel 27 come in nearly all the time and both have short towers on the valley floor and are over 50 miles away.

KBTV is the biggest exception to my TV Fool report. It doesn't appear in the list at all which extends down to stations with Noise Margins as low as -33 dB.

Chuck


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post #11192 of 11217 Old 09-16-2014, 09:42 AM
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I'm wondering if I can get FOX KCBA 13 (35.1) better with a dedicated high VHF antenna. I'm currently using a combo RCA ANT751, which gets channel 8 well, as that was my only goal in that direction. The reception of KCBA is not watchable at the moment, but it does have its promising moments. Yes, I get FOX better up north on KTVU, but it's nice to have another. Plus, KCBA carries different games at times, this last weekend SD & Seattle, as opposed to the Raiders...

Thoughts on something like a 7-13 Yagi (Antennas Direct or other) making a difference, or maybe the C5? FWIW, my neighbor seems to be getting it fairly well with a combo Winegard HD7694P...

The situation per TV Fool:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d24344cdac3547

Thanks for the input...
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post #11193 of 11217 Old 09-16-2014, 01:33 PM
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Tony... For reliable reception that's good during good and poor conditions, I'd suggest an antenna with some gain. Something like the Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 that I have would work well for both channels 8 and 13, plus there's a new channel, KOTR Santa Cruz, that's supposed to be coming up on channel 11. If you wanted to receive the Salinas/Monterey UHF's as well, a combination antenna, like your friend's Winegard HD7694P or even a more powerful model, would be the wise choice.

You could do like I've done, put in an RF switch where you can select which antenna you want. You could have your Sutro/Mt. San Bruno antenna and the Salinas/Monterey antenna which you can chose with a push of a button.

Check out pictures of my antennas in the link below.

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post #11194 of 11217 Old 09-16-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Tony... For reliable reception that's good during good and poor conditions, I'd suggest an antenna with some gain. Something like the Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 that I have would work well for both channels 8 and 13, plus there's a new channel, KOTR Santa Cruz, that's supposed to be coming up on channel 11. If you wanted to receive the Salinas/Monterey UHF's as well, a combination antenna, like your friend's Winegard HD7694P or even a more powerful model, would be the wise choice.

You could do like I've done, put in an RF switch where you can select which antenna you want. You could have your Sutro/Mt. San Bruno antenna and the Salinas/Monterey antenna which you can chose with a push of a button.

Check out pictures of my antennas in the link below.

Larry
Larry, thank you for the thoughtful reply, and helpful information.

I just looked again at my TV Fool report, and I don't see any UHF channels of interest southward, so just VHF, namely 8 and 13. Thanks for letting me know about 11 also. Looks interesting. They seem to carry sports too as I noticed Giants and A's games. Do you know about when KOTR will be on 11?

With respect to the Y-10-7-13, I actually have that antenna in my shopping cart now:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=y10-7-13

Doesn't break the bank to try, so I think I'll pull-the-trigger. I don't see it locally, but I'm still looking...

I actually have a remote controlled A/B RF switch switch, somewhere (moving still). However, since I'm using a UHF and VHF combiner (Winegard CS7750), I'd just do as I'm doing now, have each down lead (DB4e & Y10-7-13) go into that...

Back to looking for a Y10-7-13 locally.

Larry, thank you again.
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post #11195 of 11217 Old 09-16-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB1966 View Post
Thanks for letting me know about 11 also. Looks interesting. They seem to carry sports too as I noticed Giants and A's games. Do you know about when KOTR will be on 11?

KOTR has had a Construction Permit for 11 for 3 years and they have not built it. I'm beginning to wonder if it will ever be built. KOTR analog 2 is off the air and has been for some time and they never filed an STA with the FCC for silent operation. The proposed transmitter site for KOTR 11 is due west of you, not south where analog 2 used to be.

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post #11196 of 11217 Old 09-16-2014, 04:50 PM
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Chuck, thank you. Clearly, one should not hold his breath on a KOTR channel 11 transmission... And, if due west of me as you say, that would be brutal to get anyways.

Solid Signal is open late and do indeed have the Y10-7-13 in stock. They can 2 day ship it for 5 bucks more, so I'd have it by the weekend, so long as I place the order by tonight. If there are any other equally competent or desirable high VHF antennas, I'm all ears.

I see that it's 300 Ohms. I have a bag of transformers, so no problem there. Do folks still use twin lead? I guess so. Are there any advantages or disadvantages of a 300 ohm antenna, when one is using RG6? I imagine there is some form of loss with the transformer. Just trying to understand why the antenna, and others, come with a 300 Ohm out...

Thanks in advance for the education!
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post #11197 of 11217 Old 09-16-2014, 04:58 PM
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Just trying to understand why the antenna, and others, come with a 300 Ohm out...
It's an old design that Antennacraft has never updated plus, they get you to buy a transformer while you're at the store of the company that owns them, Radio Shack.

Just use the matching transformer, its expected and normal. Channel Master and Winegard transformers are both good enough
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post #11198 of 11217 Old 09-16-2014, 05:32 PM
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Thank you ProjectSHO89. I've been using a transformer on the RCA ANT751. The bag of transformers I have is probably almost 20 years old though. They were always in my "cable toolbox", in doors, thankfully...

Just took-out the transformers and I think it's a Hollands: MATV TVC HMT-1.

UHF-VHF-FM 5-890 MHz

Doesn't look to be outdoor rated...

EDIT / ADD: Back to the Y10-7-13... This would seem to be a fairly directional antenna. Any idea as to the beam width? I don't see any such reference... I might even try pointing this guy northward, just like the DB4E, to see how reception is on KNTV 12 and KGO 7. These would seem to be easy gets, however they are separated a bit (309 & 312 degrees, true). I'm guessing the Y10-7-13 can nab both reliably...

Will the Y10-7-13 have any backside reception? Heck, if so, I might still get channel 8 down south, but I doubt 13 (KCBA)...

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post #11199 of 11217 Old 09-17-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyB1966 View Post
EDIT / ADD: Back to the Y10-7-13... This would seem to be a fairly directional antenna. Any idea as to the beam width? I don't see any such reference... I might even try pointing this guy northward, just like the DB4E, to see how reception is on KNTV 12 and KGO 7. These would seem to be easy gets, however they are separated a bit (309 & 312 degrees, true). I'm guessing the Y10-7-13 can nab both reliably...

Will the Y10-7-13 have any backside reception? Heck, if so, I might still get channel 8 down south, but I doubt 13 (KCBA)...
The Y10-7-13 will be similar to this:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html

The beamwidth is on the order of 40 degrees. Reception off the back is problematic. There tends to be a lot of multipath because you may be pointed at reflections.

You can build my VHF antenna. It's better than anything you can buy. Click on my signature link.

Chuck


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post #11200 of 11217 Old 09-17-2014, 10:48 AM
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Chuck, very neat info on your VHF build. Looks like a fun project and one where I can get many of the materials at The Home Depot. I have a drill press, but it's still at our "old" house, and not moved yet... Sounds like something my 5 year old daughter would enjoy doing with me too. Thanks for steering me to your sig...

Pleasantly surprised that the beam on the Y10-7-13 is not tighter. If the antenna gets ABC 7 and NBC 12 up north (probably with no amplification), and NBC & ABC 8 and FOX 13 south of me, I'll need to decide for now which is of more value, and point accordingly.

The only CBS option is via UHF 29, and PBS is also only on UHF (30, 50 & 43). And, according to TV Fool, my best option for FOX is UHF 44. At 62+ miles away and "2 edge", these are not always solid for us with the DB4e and CM777 preamp. So, if we could get a more stable FOX on KCBA, that would be great...

Looking forward to getting the Y10-7-13 this Friday.
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post #11201 of 11217 Old 09-17-2014, 01:35 PM
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Tony... The Y10-7-13 has virtually no reception off the back. With mine pointed at Walnut Grove (55 degrees) I don't get reliable reception from either the Sutro (267 degrees) or Mt. San Bruno (190 degrees) stations off the back of it, and they're within 5 miles of my home. KGO 7 pixelates a lot and I don't get a strong enough signal from KNTV 12 to even make a picture.

I can almost guarantee that pointing the antenna northwest will work great for you for 7 and 12, but you can forget about 8 and 13. If you point it south, you'll get 8 and 13, but nothing from 7 and 12.

Larry

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post #11202 of 11217 Old 09-17-2014, 02:00 PM
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K07ZK RF 7 near Monterey filed a License to Cover today so they may be on the air. The transmitter site is low level with limited coverage so it'll take someone in that area to tell us if it's on the air.

Chuck


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post #11203 of 11217 Old 09-17-2014, 02:37 PM
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Larry, thank you for chiming-in. Very good info. Given your proximity (w/in 5 miles), that really make it clear on what I should expect...

My current thinking is that if I can indeed reliably secure KCBA (FOX), in addition to KSBW (NBC & ABC), I'll point it south. CBS and PBS will have to be nothern gets, and remain challenging at times... I suppose I should seriously consider more metal for a UHF antenna too, and maybe I'll do that later.

EDIT / ADD:

Is my thinking and math below correct regarding minimum vertical separation between my UHF (DB4e) on top, and Y10-7-13 below?

From my notes, the separation between these two should be 1/2 a wavelength of the lowest frequency actually received. So, if pointing southward, that would be channel 8, or 180-186 MHz. Wavelength in inches = 11808.

11808 / 180 = 65.6 inches / 2 = 32.8"

After checking the web, that seems correct, but I welcome input here...

With the DB4e taking-up a fair amount of vertical space, this might be tough on the current mast. I don't want the Y10-7-13 inches off the roof. What would be a good distance off the roof? The only metal I see in the roof below is the mast and metal roof jack allowing it passage into the attic....

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post #11204 of 11217 Old 09-17-2014, 06:22 PM
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As you can see from the pictures of my Y10-7-13, the installer put it about a foot below the CM4228.

I don't know whether the gain would be better or not if there was more space, but the yagi works fine for receiving channels 9 and 10 from Walnut Grove, 62 miles away on the other side of the East Bay hills.

Larry
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post #11205 of 11217 Old 09-17-2014, 08:20 PM
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Larry to the rescue, again. Actual, user data! Thank you.

I won't dork around with a new mast, unless it seems necessary. From what little reading I've done on the Y10-7-13, it rejects around the antenna quite well, so maybe that is why you still get great results with it quite near the CM4228...

Ah, I see that you have a C5 also... It too is near a CM4228.

Clearly, I need to click on everyone's signature links. Some good stuff!
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post #11206 of 11217 Old 09-17-2014, 08:20 PM
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Escape and Grit Program Listings added to UniMás

Escape and Grit Program Listings on the UniMás stations have been added to Schedules Direct, Zap2It and other listings that use Tribune Media Services.

Quote:
SCANNING: 593000000 (us-bcast:34) Sutro Tower
LOCK: 8vsb (ss=92 snq=87 seq=100)
TSID: 0x01B1
PROGRAM 1: 66.1 KFSF-HD
PROGRAM 2: 66.2 KDTV-HD
PROGRAM 3: 66.3 Bounce
PROGRAM 4: 66.4 Grit

SCANNING: 695000000 (us-bcast:51) Mt. Allison
LOCK: 8vsb (ss=95 snq=75 seq=100)
TSID: 0x0181
PROGRAM 1: 14.1 KDTV-HD
PROGRAM 2: 14.2 KFSF-HD
PROGRAM 3: 14.3 getTV
PROGRAM 4: 14.4 Escape
TitanTV
http://www.titantv.com/

also has the listings for Escape and Grit.

TVGuide as always does not have a clue as the UniMás listings are incomplete.

----------------------------------
a listing of all the stations I receive is attached to this post:
San Francisco, CA - OTA

Schedules Direct
http://www.schedulesdirect.org/

Zap2It TV LISTINGS
http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlisti....do?aid=zap2it

SHF

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post #11207 of 11217 Old Yesterday, 06:25 PM
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Well, preliminary results of the Y10-7-13 are not positive...

Pointing southward, at and around 168 degrees (true) is not getting me KCBA. I first had it go through the preamp, on the VHF side of course (RCA preamp), and it was same reception quality as the RCA ANT751 antenna. I then figured maybe there was too much gain possibly, so I removed the preamp, and now no KCBA (32 signal strength via the TiVo Roamio). Oddly, even channel 8, which is quite strong, is getting a peak of 40 on signal strength...

Probably even worse is that my channel scans are yielding fewer channels and the ones I get appear weaker. I'll remove the Y10-7-13 and see if things get better. First, I will aim it north to see if it gets 7 and 12, and not cause problems elsewhere...
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post #11208 of 11217 Old Yesterday, 07:06 PM
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Well, preliminary results of the Y10-7-13 are not positive...

Pointing southward, at and around 168 degrees (true) is not getting me KCBA. I first had it go through the preamp, on the VHF side of course (RCA preamp), and it was same reception quality as the RCA ANT751 antenna. I then figured maybe there was too much gain possibly, so I removed the preamp, and now no KCBA (32 signal strength via the TiVo Roamio). Oddly, even channel 8, which is quite strong, is getting a peak of 40 on signal strength...

Probably even worse is that my channel scans are yielding fewer channels and the ones I get appear weaker. I'll remove the Y10-7-13 and see if things get better. First, I will aim it north to see if it gets 7 and 12, and not cause problems elsewhere...
Sounds like a component issue, such as balun, cable, splitter, or amp. That antenna is a very strong signal grabber. You should see a noticeable difference.
Not sure if that amp has an internal switch for VHF / UHF combined or stand alone. Some do.
Some amps have also an internal switch for FM trap as well.
I don't believe the issue is the antenna. Usually in most areas KCBA is 10% to 15% less than KSBW. And that is usually not a problem.
I'd look at every component from start to end of cable run and see what it is.
Ben

looking at your tvfool report, for KCBA with -10db nm. I'd expect wild signal surges & loss on an hourly day by day basis. I find 9am to 11am is usually a peak & sometimes 10pm to 12am another surge.
Stations below zero noise margin are tricky with some degree of temporary outages.
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post #11209 of 11217 Old Yesterday, 07:45 PM
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Sounds like a component issue, such as balun, cable, splitter, or amp. That antenna is a very strong signal grabber. You should see a noticeable difference.
Not sure if that amp has an internal switch for VHF / UHF combined or stand alone. Some do.
Some amps have also an internal switch for FM trap as well.
I don't believe the issue is the antenna. Usually in most areas KCBA is 10% to 15% less than KSBW. And that is usually not a problem.
I'd look at every component from start to end of cable run and see what it is.
Ben

looking at your tvfool report, for KCBA with -10db nm. I'd expect wild signal surges & loss on an hourly day by day basis. I find 9am to 11am is usually a peak & sometimes 10pm to 12am another surge.
Stations below zero noise margin are tricky with some degree of temporary outages.
Thoughtful reply 888CALLFCC. Sound troubleshooting steps, which I've been doing, until our 3 and 5 year olds had Mommy just lose it. Bad husband on the roof and in the attic "dorking-around" with the those damn antennas!

Got the little ones under the control and the wife calm...

I actually think that it might be the 300 / 75 Ohm transformer. When I was snugging it down to the antenna, with my hands, the wire ripped-out where it's crimped. So, I got another outdoor rated one off my old antenna. It looks pretty tattered, so I wonder if that is the culprit... I have several non-outdoor rated ones that I can try though.

I'm going north now, and those should be somewhat easier, I would think. KGO 7, signal at 32, nada. KNTV 12, also signal strength 32, nothing as well. I'm about 16.5" below the DB4e (1/4 wavelength), which I know is not ideal, but I can't do 1/2 a wavelength between the two. It is also a foot or so off the roof. I'm sure none of that is helping...

I'll replace the transformer and report back.
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post #11210 of 11217 Old Yesterday, 07:56 PM
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I'd look at every component from start to end of cable run and see what it is.
Ben
.
I noticed those "Digital" gold plated husky splitters sold at home depot & electronic stores have HUGE losses. -7.5 or more per port.
Where as a simple 5-900 Mhz splitter is around 3.5 per port.
7.5 db loss is subtracted from the gain your antenna has (say 9+db) puts that cable wire system with splitter at + 1.5 or less.
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The only splitting is with an amplified splitter in the attic... It's a 1 to 2 splitter.

My indoor rated transformers are too short for the coax cable in place (preamp to antenna). Damn. I don't see any outdoor rated ones at Home Depot, Walmart, or other places that I can make it to tonight. So, this will have to wait until tomorrow...

Whatever problems I might be having with the transformer, I'm not sure that would explain the UHF issues I'm seeing. The DB4e has its own preamp and feeds into a low loss Winegard combiner... UHF reception is compromised with the introduction of this VHF antenna.

I will take the Y10-7-13 off the mast, and see if UHF reception improves...
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post #11212 of 11217 Old Yesterday, 09:54 PM
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Whatever problems I might be having with the transformer, I'm not sure that would explain the UHF issues I'm seeing. The DB4e has its own preamp and feeds into a low loss Winegard combiner... UHF reception is compromised with the introduction of this VHF antenna.

I will take the Y10-7-13 off the mast, and see if UHF reception improves...

This doesn't make any sense. Maybe you just hit a period of poor reception.

Chuck


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post #11213 of 11217 Old Yesterday, 10:41 PM
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This doesn't make any sense. Maybe you just hit a period of poor reception.

Chuck
Chuck, it might be coincidence alright. I was unable to dedicate more time this evening...

I found an outdoor 300/75 Ohm transformer at Lowe's and I'll get that tomorrow.

There are some trees around here, but VHF should deal with that situation better than UHF, at least from what I recall.

I'm pondering another mast and if so, where I might put it. I have a chimney near by, but it does not have square corners, as seen with brick or other materials. It's a decorative rock, so no sharp 90 degree corners for a chimney mount (anchor straps).

If the transformer doesn't do the trick, I feel that everything else in the system checks-out. The same cables, preamps (one each for VHF and UHF), combiner and amplified splitter are not problematic as they don't present issues otherwise.

Being so low, just above the roof is seemingly a concern. The RCA ANT751, given that it is so much shorter, and just on one side of the mast, I raised it a couple inches below the DB4e, pointing in almost the opposite direction. I'll move the Y10-7-13 higher to see what happens.

My mast is galvanized pipe (1 1/4"), going through a roof jack down to the attic "floor". I can put a galvanized coupler on top and a 2' extension, which I already have. This would afford more vertical space to raise both antennas a little higher, or get better spacing between the two.

Thinking out loud, in case the transformer is not the issue...
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I noticed those "Digital" gold plated husky splitters sold at home depot & electronic stores have HUGE losses. -7.5 or more per port.
That would be expected for a four port splitter. I've never seen a two port splitter with such a rating. Do you have a specific example of what you're referring to?
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Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
That would be expected for a four port splitter. I've never seen a two port splitter with such a rating. Do you have a specific example of what you're referring to?
The two port splitters that pass 5-2150Mhz have that loss. The basic antenna VHF-UHF ones do not.
They are usually double the size of a standard splitter (More aluminum) and sometimes plated in gold,
Not sure @ what frequency they rate the loss, but 7.5 is not good.
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but 7.5 is not good.
Got a specific example? None of the two port splitters I've ever seen has that insertion loss.
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There's no reason RF design-wise why a 2-way splitter with a wider frequency range must have higher loss. If some of them do then they're a poor design and I'd look for better ones.

Chuck


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