San Francisco, CA - OTA - Page 382 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 61Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-05-2014, 11:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 39
How much better is "a little better" on the HDHR4-2US vs the older model?

I have several stations that are often just below the 50% signal quality level on my HDHR so they don't produce a picture that often. They do come in better on other receivers in the house. Do you think the new HDHR receivers would be worth getting in this case?

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

Larry Kenney is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-06-2014, 05:39 AM
Advanced Member
 
PretzelFisch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAP View Post
I have two of the original HDHomeRuns. The power supply both failed. I'm running them off of an old AT power supply. They still work. The HDHR4-2US do a better job of reception so I have them set to record the more challenging stations KGO and KNTV.
how it the hdhr4 compaire to the homerun plus?
PretzelFisch is offline  
Old 11-06-2014, 06:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 2,174
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
How much better is "a little better" on the HDHR4-2US vs the older model?


I have several stations that are often just below the 50% signal quality level on my HDHR so they don't produce a picture that often. They do come in better on other receivers in the house. Do you think the new HDHR receivers would be worth getting in this case?


Larry

Most of my reception is due to my Antenna, Pre Amp and Eight (8) way distribution amp My location which allows the two small lobes near 90 degrees of my CM4228HD to pick up the east bay transmitters.


This will be shown when I "Nuke" the hard disk on my backup HTPC and then rebuild it. When it is swapped in I will be going back to the Fusion5 RT Gold which is a lessor tuner than the Fusion 7 Dual. Tests show that I will loose little.


With just one day I cannot go beyond what I said before about the HDHR4-2US


If the HDHR TECH3-US is just as good, for you interests then that might be an upgrade path for you.


Getting a partner to build and install some software with the features like Toast0 has would I suggest drive any upgrades for you.


SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
Old 11-06-2014, 09:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,026
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks very much for your very helpful response. My smart TV allows me to select the stronger of the two, but unfortunately my DirecTV genie does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Easy, check Larry's list.

You will see that KGO VC7 has two transmitters, one on Sutro on RF 7 and one on Mt. Allison using RF 35.

RF 7 looks good :

http://ruka.org/~toast/atscdata/chart.php?c=7

But if you change to RF 35 you see problems (Samples are ~ 30 Minutes apart).

Which transmitter is best for you, RF 7 VHF or RF 35 UHF, you will have to determine yourself.

Some DTV sets do not allow you to select which one. Some do not even tell you that there are two.

KTVU VC 2 has two also. One on Sutro on RF 44 and one on Monument Pk using RF 48. Both UHF.

Good Luck.

SHF
gimp is offline  
Old 11-06-2014, 08:32 PM
DAP
AVS Special Member
 
DAP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
how it the hdhr4 compaire to the homerun plus?
I do not have the plus. The plus does on the fly transcoding, something I did not need. I think the tuners are otherwise the same.
DAP is offline  
Old 11-06-2014, 09:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 2,174
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAP View Post
I do not have the plus. The plus does on the fly transcoding, something I did not need. I think the tuners are otherwise the same.
For the "4" I read that the tuner was a little better than the original which was what I observed with KTNC and KEMO.

When I get the time and the tuners are free a full scan one after the other may prove useful. Original vs "4".

I agree that between the "4" products the tuner is the same.

SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
Old 11-07-2014, 05:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 39
FYI... I notice that Estrella TV on KTNC 42-1 is now in HD.

They're using the HD feed for 42-2, too, but it's shrunk to 4:3, so everyone is skinny. The KTNC signal on KCNS 38.3 is also the shrunk version.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

Larry Kenney is online now  
Old 11-07-2014, 05:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 2,174
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 35
KTNC in HD

TSReader Attached.


Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	KTNC.JPG
Views:	329
Size:	177.1 KB
ID:	353913  
Attached Files
File Type: zip KTNC.zip (1.2 KB, 22 views)
SFischer1 is online now  
Old 11-08-2014, 12:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Interesting conditions were observed earlier this evening. While surfing the channels about 5:30 I noticed that some of the stations I normally receive weren't coming in. Both KRCB and KEMO from up north were below the cliff edge, and most of the stations from Walnut Grove were much weaker than normal. KVIE, KXTV and KCRA were all below the cliff edge, but the other UHF stations were there, just weaker than usual. At the same time, though, signals from the South Bay were booming in! KAXT 1 and KEXT 27 were stronger than I've ever seen them. KAXT was up to 20 dB SNR and KEXT was at 19 dB, and 14, 36, 48 and 50 were all stronger than usual. Still no picture from KGO 35 or KTVU 48, but signals on both channels were at about 14 dB.

Later tonight I checked and both KAXT and KEXT were below the cliff edge and KRCB and KEMO and the Walnut Grove stations were all both back to their usual signal strength.

You never know what you're going to find when you're looking around the channels.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

Larry Kenney is online now  
Old 11-08-2014, 08:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Calaveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mountain Ranch
Posts: 3,782
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Interesting conditions were observed earlier this evening.
Conditions are following the typical building high pressure pattern. Lots of problems with Walnut Grove dropping out in the evening and extra flakey reception from Sutro. OTOH signals have been very strong from Salinas. When the high weakens conditions will improve for me. This morning KAXT was SNR 25dB.

KFTY is still having link problems. I tried watching NBTV but too much pixelation. SNR was good though at 24 dB.

Chuck
Calaveras is offline  
Old 11-08-2014, 11:44 AM
Advanced Member
 
888CALLFCC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Interesting conditions were observed earlier this evening. signals from the South Bay were booming in!
Larry
I noticed that too. KSBW was showing up 4 to 10% on the UHF antenna used for KEMO. That is not normal.

I found a "sweet spot" that permits reception of KEMO most of the time. Amazing given my blocked location from that transmitter.
It does slowly fade in/out or flutter sometimes. But I'd say 80-90% of the time it works.
75 miles, 2 edge, -15db noise margin.
888CALLFCC is offline  
Old 11-08-2014, 12:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
888CALLFCC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Found a "Hidden" feature on one of those 2009 DTV coupon converter boxes. (Digitalstream) ...Radio shack

On the remote, push the . button.
... Tv displays RF, then enter the channel number. Say 9, for example, then push the signal meter button for signal on RF 9
... No need to re-scan or delete scans, etc.

Very helpful for checking KTVJ on 4, without deleting KRON. And a time saver.
888CALLFCC is offline  
Old 11-08-2014, 09:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
PretzelFisch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked: 178
I got the antenna moved today, first aim i get 7 but not 35. I also managed to revive krcb for the first time and get kqed, I am having trouble with kcsm, I see signal strength at 100% on my hd homerun, but signal quality is under 44% is anyone else seeing this? What might I be able to do to correct for this situation?
PretzelFisch is offline  
Old 11-08-2014, 09:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 2,174
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
I got the antenna moved today, first aim i get 7 but not 35. I also managed to revive krcb for the first time and get kqed, I am having trouble with kcsm, I see signal strength at 100% on my hd homerun, but signal quality is under 44% is anyone else seeing this? What might I be able to do to correct for this situation?
KGO RF 35 is a low power transmitter and right now reception is not too good at Toast0's location. You are a few miles to the South East along the same path. If you get KGO RF 7, not to worry.

Moving your antenna Up, Down, Left, Right, Back or Forward may change the multipath and allow you to receive KCSM. A foot or two might be all that is needed. My main antenna has Signal Quality 75% and my Attic antenna has 97% for KCSM. Pointing a few degrees to the North or West may help.

SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
Old 11-08-2014, 11:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
PretzelFisch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked: 178
So I am assuming this is a multipath issue, but could a pre amp cause this issue I have a winegaurd preamp in line because one room had maybe 300 feet of coax from antenna to tv.
but the test rooms only have about 100 feet of coax line?
PretzelFisch is offline  
Old 11-09-2014, 12:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
This morning KAXT was SNR 25dB.

KFTY is still having link problems. I tried watching NBTV but too much pixelation. SNR was good though at 24 dB.

Chuck
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC
I noticed that too. KSBW was showing up 4 to 10% on the UHF antenna used for KEMO.
Looks like conditions were weird all over. 25 dB SNR in the Sierra foothills for a low power station near Fremont? Amazing! KSBW coming in off the back of your UHF antenna. Super!

Chuck, according to Keith, in an email he sent me, he's going to be switching out receivers at Mt. St. Helena and he's hoping that will help with the dropouts. He's also going to try a few things to see if it cures my lock up problem on my Sony.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

Larry Kenney is online now  
Old 11-09-2014, 12:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
So I am assuming this is a multipath issue, but could a pre amp cause this issue? I have a winegaurd preamp in line because one room had maybe 300 feet of coax from antenna to tv. but the test rooms only have about 100 feet of coax line?
No, a preamp would have no affect on the quality of a signal, only the strength. The low quality on KCSM is most likely a multipath issue. You're probably getting a reflection off something that's affecting that channel. As Stephen suggested, moving your antenna just a bit could make all the difference and get rid of the multipath.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

Larry Kenney is online now  
Old 11-09-2014, 09:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 2,174
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 203 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Is your preamp close to the antenna?


SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
Old 11-09-2014, 09:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Calaveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mountain Ranch
Posts: 3,782
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Strong ducting to Salinas and Fremont this morning. KAXT was as high as SNR 31 dB and I finally captured the ID screen of KEXT.

KQET was overriding KOVR when pointing down there. Even Sutro and San Bruno were good.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	KEXT-LD.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	190.8 KB
ID:	357250  
Calaveras is offline  
Old 11-09-2014, 09:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Calaveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mountain Ranch
Posts: 3,782
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
I got the antenna moved today, first aim i get 7 but not 35. I also managed to revive krcb for the first time and get kqed, I am having trouble with kcsm, I see signal strength at 100% on my hd homerun, but signal quality is under 44% is anyone else seeing this? What might I be able to do to correct for this situation?
KCSM is having multipath problems. The only solution is to try the antenna in a different location and of course higher is almost always better.

Chuck
Calaveras is offline  
Old 11-09-2014, 09:53 AM
Advanced Member
 
PretzelFisch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Is your preamp close to the antenna?


SHF
it's about 5 feet below the antenna it is mounted on the mass, I couldn't get one of my pole extenders to work so it's the antenna is only 8 feet over the roof peak. so its about 20 feet above ground level. I'll try to rotate the antenna a few degrees west today and see if that improves things.

One of our trees is in the line where our signal should be coming from, maybe this is part of the multipath issue.
PretzelFisch is offline  
Old 11-09-2014, 12:05 PM
DAP
AVS Special Member
 
DAP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
No, a preamp would have no affect on the quality of a signal, only the strength. The low quality on KCSM is most likely a multipath issue. You're probably getting a reflection off something that's affecting that channel. As Stephen suggested, moving your antenna just a bit could make all the difference and get rid of the multipath.

Larry
I disagree. A preamp can destroy the signal if the input signal is large enough to cause it to clip. And by signal, I mean the entire spectrum, not just the channel of interest. In my area, FM radio signals are 100 times as strong as the television channels, so I need an FM trap to prevent my distribution amplifier from clipping.
DAP is offline  
Old 11-09-2014, 12:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Calaveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mountain Ranch
Posts: 3,782
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
iOne of our trees is in the line where our signal should be coming from, maybe this is part of the multipath issue.

Yes, trees are a frequent problem especially on UHF. Your antenna should not be looking through a nearby tree.

Chuck
Calaveras is offline  
Old 11-09-2014, 02:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAP View Post
I disagree. A preamp can destroy the signal if the input signal is large enough to cause it to clip. And by signal, I mean the entire spectrum, not just the channel of interest. In my area, FM radio signals are 100 times as strong as the television channels, so I need an FM trap to prevent my distribution amplifier from clipping.
That is certainly true, if there are strong signals, but where Pretzelfisch is located there are no strong signals that would affect his preamp.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

Larry Kenney is online now  
Old 11-09-2014, 02:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Chuck...

31 dB from a low power station that's about 100 miles away is amazing! I didn't do any signal checking this morning, but now, at 2 pm, signals are all about normal level here. I don't see any exceptionally strong signals from any direction. Both KAXT and KEXT from the South Bay are coming in intermittently going from 14 to 17 dB SNR, which is normal.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

Larry Kenney is online now  
Old 11-09-2014, 02:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Calaveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mountain Ranch
Posts: 3,782
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Larry,

Signals have returned mostly to average levels this afternoon. I expect to see more enhanced/degraded conditions tonight.

KAXT is down to SNR 19 dB.

Chuck
Calaveras is offline  
Old 11-09-2014, 06:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
888CALLFCC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Larry,
I expect to see more enhanced/degraded conditions tonight.
Chuck
KVIE is surging here right now. 6:29pm
4-10% on a indoor UHF antenna.

Also unknown signal on 31 ....4%
Thats all for now.
888CALLFCC is offline  
Old 11-09-2014, 06:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
888CALLFCC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
KVIE is surging here right now. 6:29pm
4-10% on a indoor UHF antenna.

Also unknown signal on 31 ....4%
Thats all for now.
Using this type of antenna. ... Works very well... but poorly built..(flimsy)
http://www.walmart.com/ip/GE-Attic-M...tenna/20976617
888CALLFCC is offline  
Old 11-10-2014, 08:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rdvegas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Northwest Las Vegas
Posts: 1,117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 35
KXTV 10.2 in Sacramento will launch the Justice Network, possibly in January. No San Francisco station has stepped forward yet.

http://deadline.com/2014/11/justice-...tt-1201280309/

http://www.rabbitears.info/search.ph...ustice+Network

Wanting a strong FCC to say no to the Wireless lobby. Keep the tv broadcast band for ota television broadcasters.

Last edited by rdvegas; 11-11-2014 at 05:03 PM.
rdvegas is offline  
Old 11-15-2014, 02:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
888CALLFCC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Interesting conditions were observed earlier this evening. At the same time, though, signals from the South Bay were booming in! KAXT 1 and KEXT 27 were stronger than I've ever seen them.
You never know what you're going to find when you're looking around the channels.
Larry
Not anymore...
For the past week, everything has been normal with almost no changes on any channel here. Goodbye RF 31, a complete zero signal now.
KSBW & KCBA are at a constant flat with no enhancement.

Now would be a good time to install a antenna to see what "normal" reception actually is at your location.
If you experience dropouts now, the antenna is not adequate for your location. (And will provide unreliable service most of the time)

The longer it takes, ... It looks like KTVJ-4 will never get on the air.... What's the holdup?

Last edited by 888CALLFCC; 11-15-2014 at 02:32 PM.
888CALLFCC is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off