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post #11971 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxreactance View Post
Yes, I've been having those problems for about a week
now, VERY unusual for that station, which is about
my strongest. I chalked it up to some type of local VERY
strong "impact interference" because I'm seeing a little of
the same issue on channel 7, same intermittent brief
macroblocking/audio dropout, but I don't know what's
going on.

...
maxreactance
Both KGO VC 7 RF 7 and KNTV VC 11 RF 12 show sighs of some problems, hard to tell with samples ~ 30 minutes apart.

http://ruka.org/~toast/atscdata/chart.php?c=7

SHF
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post #11972 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 06:16 PM
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Interesting discussion. VC 7.1 has been perfect for me, as it usually is. No problems over the weekend with VC 11.1 (my original question) and I haven't seen it on any other stations. I did re-sync my rotor yesterday afternoon just in case it got tweaked a little since the last time I synced (which was about 5 years ago). At about 50 miles from the towers I guess I shouldn't complain too much when I get the occasional glitch.
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post #11973 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 07:08 PM
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Question Outdoor antenna recommendations please (SF Bay Area)

My 40 year old outdoor antenna faces North, toward San Francisco, which is 50 miles away. It's been working fine until a few months ago when on most days the signal stops for a second, or the picture pixellates on all three attached HD sets. Dry day reception seem better or fine.

Called a few antenna specialists. One man said there's a box on the antenna which is $20 and is the likely cause. Labor = $80. He recommended a Clear Stream 2V by Antennas Direct. I tried it (10 db gain) and it was not good, but I didn't try it on the roof. Another antenna man highly recommended the Winegard 7694, which is here: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...-%28hd7694p%29 . The miles rating on this antenna doesn't seem sufficient so I'm hesitant to hire this man.

In another forum, members raved about the Winegard 8200.

Then there are youtube videos suggesting to put an outdoor antenna in the attic here
OR building your own

Anyone have some strong recommendations of an excellent outdoor antenna, Winegard, Channel Master, etc. ?
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post #11974 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
My 40 year old outdoor antenna faces North, toward San Francisco, which is 50 miles away. It's been working fine until a few months ago when on most days the signal stops for a second, or the picture pixellates on all three attached HD sets. Dry day reception seem better or fine.

Called a few antenna specialists. One man said there's a box on the antenna which is $20 and is the likely cause. Labor = $80. He recommended a Clear Stream 2V by Antennas Direct. I tried it (10 db gain) and it was not good, but I didn't try it on the roof. Another antenna man highly recommended the Winegard 7694, which is here: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...-%28hd7694p%29 . The miles rating on this antenna doesn't seem sufficient so I'm hesitant to hire this man.

In another forum, members raved about the Winegard 8200.

Then there are youtube videos suggesting to put an outdoor antenna in the attic here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G3WQPYTv_o OR building your own https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P69K...Q&spfreload=10

Anyone have some strong recommendations of an excellent outdoor antenna, Winegard, Channel Master, etc. ?
I have a Channel Master CM4228HD which was selected for it's ability to get UHF great and VHF-Hi for KGO VC 7 RF 7 and KNTV VC 11 RF 12. It works quite well. I am allowed only one outdoor antenna.

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...hp?cat=2165469

I am ~ 36 miles from Sutro.

Please post a link to your TVFool results http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 so you can be helped by the experts which should be arriving here soon.

It should look like: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f08891ea4892

If you are 50 miles from Sutro you might get by with an attic antenna, my 45 year old antennas in my attic would still be working except for the addition of a metal roof. But ANY attic antenna is iffy for sure. But 50 miles South of Sutro puts you in the Pacific ocean off of Davenport. Do you mean Sutro is North West?

You can combine one UHF only antenna and one VHF only antenna which might be needed at your location.

Without the TVFool results it is hard to tell what is needed.

But if you were receiving all the channels you wanted before is the antenna damaged or perhaps the coax which is more likely.

There are only two antenna installers working in the South Bay, both very good. One installed my antenna and the other got on TV (Dick).

SHF
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post #11975 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 08:11 PM
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My 30 year old Winegard is still working great. I think the model was the Chromstar 2000, CA-8100. UHF-VHF-FM, 79 active elements. Mounted 30'AGL on a metal roof. I have a rotor but rarely have to use it. TVFool says our LOS is about 48 miles. Up until last week with a little 11.1 issues the setup has been rock solid, no weather-related issues either.
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post #11976 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
My 40 year old outdoor antenna faces North, toward San Francisco, which is 50 miles away. It's been working fine until a few months ago when on most days the signal stops for a second, or the picture pixellates on all three attached HD sets.
Then there are youtube videos suggesting to put an outdoor antenna in the attic here building your own https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P69K...Q&spfreload=10
Probably just a worn out component such as ... baln, cable, broken elements, rodents, etc.

That model of "Build-your-own" is called a Grey-Hoverman antenna ... and it works very well.
I have built one myself, and it is comparable to something between a 4 to 8 bay bowtie.
The only drawback is if you skip the reflector elements. It will be non directional.

By the way, that home made model will BEAT the performance of all indoor models on the market today.
That includes those flat "Leaf" models.
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post #11977 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
I have a Channel Master CM4228HD which was selected for it's ability to get UHF great and VHF-Hi for KGO VC 7 RF 7 and KNTV VC 11 RF 12. It works quite well. I am allowed only one outdoor antenna.

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...hp?cat=2165469

I am ~ 36 miles from Sutro.

Please post a link to your TVFool results http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 so you can be helped by the experts which should be arriving here soon.

It should look like: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f08891ea4892

If you are 50 miles from Sutro you might get by with an attic antenna, my 45 year old antennas in my attic would still be working except for the addition of a metal roof. But ANY attic antenna is iffy for sure. But 50 miles South of Sutro puts you in the Pacific ocean off of Davenport. Do you mean Sutro is North West?

You can combine one UHF only antenna and one VHF only antenna which might be needed at your location.

Without the TVFool results it is hard to tell what is needed.

But if you were receiving all the channels you wanted before is the antenna damaged or perhaps the coax which is more likely.

There are only two antenna installers working in the South Bay, both very good. One installed my antenna and the other got on TV (Dick).

SHF


Wow! Didn't know that TVfool existed.

MY LINK: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f0927ffe9f43

I don't mind replacing the 40 year old antenna with another one, but since labor is $250 to $350, I'd like an excellent antenna. I have four HD TVs which are hungry for RF. What's wrong with getting a better antenna, like db of 20 or more ?

Until recently, the reception was excellent and continuous. The antenna is on the roof and perhaps 25 feet higher than the roof.
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post #11978 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
Probably just a worn out component such as ... baln, cable, broken elements, rodents, etc.

That model of "Build-your-own" is called a Grey-Hoverman antenna ... and it works very well.
I have built one myself, and it is comparable to something between a 4 to 8 bay bowtie.
The only drawback is if you skip the reflector elements. It will be non directional.

By the way, that home made model will BEAT the performance of all indoor models on the market today.
That includes those flat "Leaf" models.
One of the installers was talking about a $10 - $20 box which he thinks is attached to the antenna. I'd have to pay him $100 to check and replace it, so might as well get a new antenna for about $300 parts and labor.
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post #11979 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Wow! Didn't know that TVfool existed.

MY LINK: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f0927ffe9f43

I don't mind replacing the 40 year old antenna with another one, but since labor is $250 to $350, I'd like an excellent antenna. I have four HD TVs which are hungry for RF. What's wrong with getting a better antenna, like db of 20 or more ?

Until recently, the reception was excellent and continuous. The antenna is on the roof and perhaps 25 feet higher than the roof.

All the SF stations are very strong. A large antenna is not required to receive them. The HD7694P on the roof is plenty of antenna for those stations. Use a CM3414 distribution amp to run the 4 TVs. Do not use a preamp. Your stations are too strong and it'll probably overload. The SF stations are only 25 miles away, not 50 miles. Don't put an antenna in the attic when you have one on the roof. That would be a downgrade.

I do wonder why you're having trouble with the old antenna. Do you have a tree that's grown up in front of the antenna? Is the drop out problem on all stations or just a few?

Chuck
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post #11980 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Wow! Didn't know that TVfool existed.

MY LINK: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f0927ffe9f43

I don't mind replacing the 40 year old antenna with another one, but since labor is $250 to $350, I'd like an excellent antenna. I have four HD TVs which are hungry for RF. What's wrong with getting a better antenna, like db of 20 or more ?

Until recently, the reception was excellent and continuous. The antenna is on the roof and perhaps 25 feet higher than the roof.
Either of the installers would know what is needed. The experts here have started to reply better than I can as they have your TVFool now.

I have a low noise preamp feeding a eight (8) way distribution amp, yes I have seven (7) ATSC tuners not including my rotten HDTV's one.

SHF
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post #11981 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
All the SF stations are very strong. A large antenna is not required to receive them. The HD7694P on the roof is plenty of antenna for those stations. Use a CM3414 distribution amp to run the 4 TVs. Do not use a preamp. Your stations are too strong and it'll probably overload. The SF stations are only 25 miles away, not 50 miles. Don't put an antenna in the attic when you have one on the roof. That would be a downgrade.

I do wonder why you're having trouble with the old antenna. Do you have a tree that's grown up in front of the antenna? Is the drop out problem on all stations or just a few?

Chuck


Good questions. No trees. As stated before, one of the men thinks it's a $10- $20 part on the antenna. Happens to ALL TVs at the same time, but the new 8550 less so. Forty years outside is a looooong time. Maybe it is 25 miles… I was thinking of driving time. Is it really worth researching why the 40 year old antenna (or coax) is failing ?
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post #11982 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Either of the installers would know what is needed. The experts here have started to reply better than I can as they have your TVFool now.

I have a low noise preamp feeding a eight (8) way distribution amp, yes I have seven (7) ATSC tuners not including my rotten HDTV's one.

SHF


Why does one need a preamp ? Won't an amp increase both noise and signal ? Four TVs were working fine until recently and there's no preamp involved.
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
All the SF stations are very strong. A large antenna is not required to receive them. The HD7694P on the roof is plenty of antenna for those stations. Use a CM3414 distribution amp to run the 4 TVs. Do not use a preamp. Your stations are too strong and it'll probably overload. The SF stations are only 25 miles away, not 50 miles. Don't put an antenna in the attic when you have one on the roof. That would be a downgrade.

I do wonder why you're having trouble with the old antenna. Do you have a tree that's grown up in front of the antenna? Is the drop out problem on all stations or just a few?

Chuck

Thanks for the suggestion re: distribution amp. Never have an such an amp before. Is the benefit more than any problems it could introduce? If one uses a "better" antenna, wouldn't that eliminate the need for an amp ?
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post #11984 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Why does one need a preamp ? Won't an amp increase both noise and signal ? Four TVs were working fine until recently and there's no preamp involved.
From my experience with the attic UHF antenna I expected a pre-amp was necessary for me.

Yes a preamp does increase both noise and signal. That is why the preamp should be right at the antenna.

I agree with Chuck that one is not necessary at 25 miles. Are you using a four way splitter now?

CM3414 distribution amp is just an option if needed. I have the eight (8) way version.

I believe that they have been improved and are less subject to overload than before. One company I read actually said so.

SHF
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post #11985 of 11995 Old Yesterday, 11:30 PM
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From my experience with the attic UHF antenna I expected a pre-amp was necessary for me.

Yes a preamp does increase both noise and signal. That is why the preamp should be right at the antenna.

I agree with Chuck that one is not necessary at 25 miles. Are you using a four way splitter now?

CM3414 distribution amp is just an option if needed. I have the eight (8) way version.

I believe that they have been improved and are less subject to overload than before. One company I read actually said so.

SHF

Yes, the overpriced Monster four way $30 splitter.

How will I know if a distribution amp is needed ? Must the amp be at the antenna, or can in be in the attic interposed between the antenna coax and splitter ?
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post #11986 of 11995 Old Today, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Yes, the overpriced Monster four way $30 splitter.

How will I know if a distribution amp is needed ? Must the amp be at the antenna, or can in be in the attic interposed between the antenna coax and splitter ?
The distribution amp replaces the four way splitter at the same location. Is one needed, well if you are not getting the stations you want, then yes. Worry about AC power!

Should you replace the 40 year old outside antenna and coax. I say yes. Weather does do damage to antennas and coax. Not to mine as they are in the attic with the VHF Lo-Hi being tied up with string.

RG6 coax used today has less loss and reduces the need for a distribution amp. Consider replacing all coax with RG6.

Here is a list of streams I receive: HDHomeRun - Dual ATSC or QAM to Ethernet Box

There has been a few additions, I need to finish up that project.

When I got permission to have an outside antenna, I drove over to Fry's to get a CM4228HD. None. Zip.

So I drove 333 miles round trip to Fry's Roseville to get my CM4228HD, used the same installer who had put up CM4228HD antennas for other HOA units. Glad I was not the first. Antenna was put up on a Saturday and I lost DTV only for a few days.

SHF
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post #11987 of 11995 Old Today, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
The distribution amp replaces the four way splitter at the same location. Is one needed, well if you are not getting the stations you want, then yes. Worry about AC power!

Should you replace the 40 year old outside antenna and coax. I say yes. Weather does do damage to antennas and coax. Not to mine as they are in the attic with the VHF Lo-Hi being tied up with string.

RG6 coax used today has less loss and reduces the need for a distribution amp. Consider replacing all coax with RG6.

SHF

So a Winegard 7694 with RG6U is the final answer ? Electric rotor optional. Distribution amp if needed.
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post #11988 of 11995 Old Today, 12:51 AM
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Two topics: Channel 11 pixelation; PeninsularMark's antenna.

I recorded the I-Heart Awards Show Sunday night OTA from KNTV and watched it tonight. There is definitely a problem with intermittent pixelation on KNTV 11. It would occur frequently for a minute or two, then disappear for a while and then return. Being a music program, it was quite irritating when it was happening. I get a signal of 30 dB SNR (98% on the signal meter) from them (Mt. San Bruno is just 5 miles away), so there should be no reason for pixelation. There's either something interfering with their signal, or they are having transmitter problems.

Now to Mark's antenna... I agree with 888CallFCC that your problem is probably due to a failed part or your coax is going bad or whatever. I agree with you that after 40 years, it's time to replace that old antenna. Don't waste your time trying to fix something that old. I would order the Winegard HD7694P that Chuck recommended and replace the old antenna with this new one using all new RG6 coax. It's a good VHF/UHF antenna that will work great for you. You can have one in a few days from Solid Signal. This long URL will take you right to their page for this antenna: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= (Click or copy and paste the entire thing from the http to the sku=) You can also get the coax from them.

As for the distribution amp vs the 4-way splitter... the amp doesn't give you any loss while the splitter cuts down on the signal quite a bit. With a distribution amp you'd have more signal to work with, but seeing the splitter has been working fine, I'd just leave it. Just replace the antenna and the coax to the splitter and you should be in good shape.

Good luck with your new installation!

Larry
SF

Edit: In your post that you made while I was typing this, you mentioned a possible rotor. It all depends on how well the stations from the hills above Fremont come in (1, 14, 36, 48, 54) with the 7694 pointed northwest, and whether or not you want any of the stray stations that are in other directions. The majority of the stations are all in one direction from your home. Look at your TVFool report to see what's available. You've got lots of stations in the green area!
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My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html


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So a Winegard 7694 with RG6U is the final answer ? Electric rotor optional. Distribution amp if needed.

You've already received good advice but I was just thinking that it would be nice to know exactly what the problem is before replacing everything. In lieu of that replacing the antenna and coax is the next best thing. Forty years is a long time for a TV antenna and the Bay Area environment is corrosive compare to where I am. They don't last forever.

A distribution amp is just a little extra for any weaker stations and should not be required for the SF stations. I have measured the overload characteristics of the CM341x series of preamps and it would be very hard to overload one.

Chuck
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Two topics: Channel 11 pixelation; PeninsularMark's antenna.

I recorded the I-Heart Awards Show Sunday night OTA from KNTV and watched it tonight. There is definitely a problem with intermittent pixelation on KNTV 11. It would occur frequently for a minute or two, then disappear for a while and then return. Being a music program, it was quite irritating when it was happening. I get a signal of 30 dB SNR (98% on the signal meter) from them (Mt. San Bruno is just 5 miles away), so there should be no reason for pixelation. There's either something interfering with their signal, or they are having transmitter problems.

Now to Mark's antenna... I agree with 888CallFCC that your problem is probably due to a failed part or your coax is going bad or whatever. I agree with you that after 40 years, it's time to replace that old antenna. Don't waste your time trying to fix something that old. I would order the Winegard HD7694P that Chuck recommended and replace the old antenna with this new one using all new RG6 coax. It's a good VHF/UHF antenna that will work great for you. You can have one in a few days from Solid Signal. This long URL will take you right to their page for this antenna: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku= (Click or copy and paste the entire thing from the http to the sku=) You can also get the coax from them.

As for the distribution amp vs the 4-way splitter... the amp doesn't give you any loss while the splitter cuts down on the signal quite a bit. With a distribution amp you'd have more signal to work with, but seeing the splitter has been working fine, I'd just leave it. Just replace the antenna and the coax to the splitter and you should be in good shape.

Good luck with your new installation!

Larry
SF

Edit: In your post that you made while I was typing this, you mentioned a possible rotor. It all depends on how well the stations from the hills above Fremont come in (1, 14, 36, 48, 54) with the 7694 pointed northwest, and whether or not you want any of the stray stations that are in other directions. The majority of the stations are all in one direction from your home. Look at your TVFool report to see what's available. You've got lots of stations in the green area!
Thank you, Larry. Will do. The issues with the rotor, other than adding $150, are:

1. They don't seem to last long nearly as long as the antenna
2. Installers give a three month warranty on them
3. It can get stuck in a sub-optimal position

It's fun to be able to rotate an antenna. Anyone have a suggestion for an excellent lon-lasting reliable rotor ?
Strangely, the signal has been fine for the past 24 hours. Typing in this forum has been therapeutic in several ways!

Last edited by PeninsulaMark; Today at 08:59 AM.
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Quote:
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Thank you, Larry. Will do. The issues with the rotor, other than adding $150, are:

1. They don't seem to last long nearly as long as the antenna
2. Installers give a three month warranty on them
3. It can get stuck in a sub-optimal position

It's fun to be able to rotate an antenna. Anyone have a suggestion for an excellent lon-lasting reliable rotor ?

Those are exactly the reasons I don't recommend the inexpensive TV rotors. I only recommend the ham rotors. If you want a rotor that'll still be working in 10 years you need this:

http://www.aesham.com/rotors/rotor-cable/yaesu-g-450a/

And you need the GC-038 lower mast bracket. The minimum sized mast is 1.5" so you can't use any of those 1 1/4" poles.

You won't like the price but this is simply what a decent rotor costs today.

Chuck
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Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Thank you, Larry. Will do. The issues with the rotor, other than adding $150, are:

1. They don't seem to last long nearly as long as the antenna
2. Installers give a three month warranty on them
3. It can get stuck in a sub-optimal position

It's fun to be able to rotate an antenna. Anyone have a suggestion for an excellent lon-lasting reliable rotor ?
Strangely, the signal has been fine for the past 24 hours. Typing in this forum has been therapeutic in several ways!
KNTV VC 11 RF 12 has been looking much better in the last 24 hours as does KGO VC 7 RF 7.

Assuming that nothing is different at the station (A very safe bet because they are monitored so closely) the weather starting to change will get us back to normal.

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Anyone have a suggestion for an excellent lon-lasting reliable rotor ?
You need to use HAM grade rotors, Chuck knows the story on those.

Fun rotating an antenna? NOT! I remember before the digital antennas were moved to the top of Sutro during the winter I rotated my four bay bow tie in my attic 360 degrees and was unable to lock on KQED RF 30. The best was directly away from Sutro.

This is a public forum which may be monitored by one or more Sutro station engineers so it is possible things might be done silently.

SHF
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Kaxt

The FCC granted a Construction Permit today to KAXT to up their power to 15 KW and change their antenna pattern to put more power up the peninsula and down into San Jose. KAXT filed the application 3 1/2 years ago. What took so long. If KAXT is looking to auction their station then I doubt this will ever be built.

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It isn't a construction permit, they already built it. KAXT was waiting for the license to cover to be granted. It now has been.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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As usual, I was confused on the forms. I was expecting a form 347, not a form 302-CA. I didn't realize that KAXT was a Class A station.

Chuck
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