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post #12241 of 12264 Old Yesterday, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Right on the landing path to SFO which is in the same direction of San Bruno, really bad. Low flying aircraft, you cannot believe how bad.
I used to live near the airport (foster city), and the aircraft didn't really affect the reception that much at all. Or at least the stations with a grade A signal.
You might notice it on a grade B signal contour, but it would be a known regional problem.
Some viewers in San Jose have perfect reception of San Francisco stations at all times, with a direct airport path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
It is too infrequent, channel 7.1 is solid, 11.1 interruptions are only every 10-20 minutes, so this won't be an easy test.
I have noticed "tv pixelation" problems with some household items in use... such as "T-8" Fluorescent lamps (4 foot) types using Electronic Fluorescent ballasts.
Older lamps (T-12) that use magnetic ballasts do not have this problem.
So you will need to check everything electrical... one by one.... to see if you can easily spot & detect a local problem.
This only causes problems with VHF channel stations.

A problem with UHF channel stations, is if you place your cell phone next to (or within say 3 feet) of the receiver, the pinging pulse of the phone,
every few minutes, could cause UHF reception issues.
That issue I spotted much more easily .... then the VHF lighting one.
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post #12242 of 12264 Old Yesterday, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
I used to live near the airport (foster city), and the aircraft didn't really affect the reception that much at all. Or at least the stations with a grade A signal.
You might notice it on a grade B signal contour, but it would be a known regional problem.
Some viewers in San Jose have perfect reception of San Francisco stations at all times, with a direct airport path.



I have noticed "tv pixelation" problems with some household items in use... such as "T-8" Fluorescent lamps (4 foot) types using Electronic Fluorescent ballasts.
Older lamps (T-12) that use magnetic ballasts do not have this problem.
So you will need to check everything electrical... one by one.... to see if you can easily spot & detect a local problem.
This only causes problems with VHF channel stations.

A problem with UHF channel stations, is if you place your cell phone next to (or within say 3 feet) of the receiver, the pinging pulse of the phone,
every few minutes, could cause UHF reception issues.
That issue I spotted much more easily .... then the VHF lighting one.

Thank you. Of the three small fluorescent lights in the house, they are on 24/7. The other lights are LED and rarely on. 11.1 is now disrupting less than once every 25 minutes, and the lights in the house, and other electrical devices, are unchanged. Can't make a correlation here.

On which channel or channels is/are your pixellation(s) ?
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post #12243 of 12264 Old Today, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Yes, Chuck. I took some screen videos lasting 30-61 seconds but don't know how to post them here. Not that they would help. Will look again at the SNR to be certain.

Further, I have a battery-operated TV and used the coax to feed it. There was also disruptions in the signal, so this is not an AC problem. The C3 APC filter for RF and AC proved to not be a cure.

11.1 is now breaking up every 2-33 seconds, the worst ever. But occasionally it will be fine for five minutes.

Read in TV Fool Forum that the Antenna Direct Tech Support member recommended an FM filter for a similar (but constant) problem. Seems that filter and/or new antenna and/or new antenna location are the only possible cures. Haven't checked with neighbors who might use OTA.

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Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
It's disrupting only every 5-10 minutes now. Twice, for < 0.5 seconds, saw the ten yellow bars drop to zero and the db dropped to zero, sound gone, pix digitized, then 32 db and ten yellow bars restored.

Then is an FM section to this old outdoor antenna, but have no idea if it's connected and running through the coax.

It's very doubtful that FM is the problem. I ran a generic FM Fool report for Menlo Park and there are no very strong FM stations in the required frequency range. To be a problem you need a strong station at 1/2 the TV channel frequency. One half of channel 11 ranges from 102 to 105 MHz and you need the FM Fool Rx(dBm) column to show at least >-30 and more likely >-20, especially with a strong TV station like 11. You can run your exact FM Fool report and post the image here. Links do not work with FM Fool.

To me this sounding more and more like an interference problem. I don't see anyone else reporting the kind of problem you're having despite some issues KNTV had. My first thought is a power line noise issue but channel 7 is not having any problem. I believe you said the channel 7 SNR is solid during these channel 11 episodes. The only thing that leaves that can affect just one channel is interference in the RF 12 frequency range.

Since you have a battery powered TV (which one?) you could drive it a ways from your house, and using a whip antenna, find a place where channel 11 is coming in to see if the problem goes away. That would confirm it's an interference problem.

Chuck

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post #12244 of 12264 Old Today, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
It's very doubtful that FM is the problem. I ran a generic FM Fool report for Menlo Park and there are no very strong FM stations in the required frequency range. To be a problem you need a strong station at 1/2 the TV channel frequency. One half of channel 11 ranges from 102 to 105 MHz and you need the FM Fool Rx(dBm) column to show at least >-30 and more likely >-20, especially with a strong TV station like 11. You can run your exact FM Fool report and post the image here. Links do not work with FM Fool.

To me this sounding more and more like an interference problem. I don't see anyone else reporting the kind of problem you're having despite some issues KNTV had. My first thought is a power line noise issue but channel 7 is not having any problem. I believe you said the channel 7 SNR is solid during these channel 11 episodes. The only thing that leaves that can affect just one channel is interference in the RF 12 frequency range.

Since you have a battery powered TV (which one?) you could drive it a ways from your house, and using a whip antenna, find a place where channel 11 is coming in to see if the problem goes away. That would confirm it's an interference problem.

Chuck

Will do, Chuck. What device or which devices can interfere with 11.1 and 11.2 ? The signal is fine and solid now.
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post #12245 of 12264 Old Today, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I don't see anyone else reporting the kind of problem you're having despite some issues KNTV had. My first thought is a power line noise issue but channel 7 is not having any problem. I believe you said the channel 7 SNR is solid during these channel 11 episodes. The only thing that leaves that can affect just one channel is interference in the RF 12 frequency range.
Chuck


Why and where do you think people would report this ? This could be in a limited geographic area and with consumers who don't know this and similar forums exist, and with personalities who don't complain.
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post #12246 of 12264 Old Today, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Why and where do you think people would report this ? This could be in a limited geographic area and with consumers who don't know this and similar forums exist, and with personalities who don't complain.
Well, we were watching The Blacklist last night and around 9:30 the macroblocking started appearing, just like before. A couple of minutes of pristine pq and then about 1-2 seconds of macroblocking. Prior to last night, the issue did go away for about 2 weeks. I reported this in the Yahoo Bay Area HDTV group. We don't watch 11.1 during the day unless there's a game on so I'll check it out tomorrow afternoon and see if it's the same. I do see it on all three tv's so it's not the main tv's tuner. Speaking of lights, I do have a CFL back light directly behind the tv that's been in place for a couple of years. I don't see any flickering of the light, but maybe........
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post #12247 of 12264 Old Today, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post
Using 24Hz would save bandwidth, but not all content is 24Hz. For example, sports is always 60Hz.

Since there's mixed content, the encoder would have to switch frame rates on the fly, which as it turns out, is somewhat difficult. Everyone uses 60Hz, and 24Hz content is always telecined to 60Hz.

Ron
Thanks, and thanks for those examples of the different types of macroblocking, very informative.
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post #12248 of 12264 Old Today, 10:59 AM
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FWIW, there are two more posts besides mine on the Yahoo Bay Area HDTV forum that are reporting the same issue. It really does sound like something is up with KNTV that is sporadic.
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post #12249 of 12264 Old Today, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
FWIW, there are two more posts besides mine on the Yahoo Bay Area HDTV forum that are reporting the same issue. It really does sound like something is up with KNTV that is sporadic.
Are you seeing the problem with the a same severity as Mark?

It's certainly possible that KNTV has a problem but one would think that a major network station would have addressed this by now.

Is everyone here seeing this with KNTV because it doesn't seem to be universal. I would expect more complaints if it's KNTV but maybe it's just ignored.

Chuck
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post #12250 of 12264 Old Today, 12:20 PM
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Hi Fellas,

Just want to run this by you again before I drag a bunch of stuff out to my cabin again to try for TV. My TV Fool report for 1849 Nicasio Valley Rd. gives me Mt. Tam as my best option for reception. I'm in the thick trees and can't see Mt. Tam 9 miles away. I have tried before with a simple roof top antenna without success about 6 months ago. Has anything changed/improved at Tam since then? According to the report should I be able to pick something up somehow? How?

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post #12251 of 12264 Old Today, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Are you seeing the problem with the a same severity as Mark?

It's certainly possible that KNTV has a problem but one would think that a major network station would have addressed this by now.

Is everyone here seeing this with KNTV because it doesn't seem to be universal. I would expect more complaints if it's KNTV but maybe it's just ignored.

Chuck
I don't know if it's the same severity or not. Every few minutes we'll get macroblocking, usually a small section across the center of the screen, for about 1-2 seconds and then it goes away. Audio garbles or blinks out as well. Like I said, I'm going to try and watch KNTV off and on during the afternoon to see it happens during the day as well. We only watch a couple of KNTV shows, Grimm and The Blacklist, so I don't know how frequent it is during the evening hours.
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post #12252 of 12264 Old Today, 12:42 PM
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Let me set my stage. I get KNTV over Dish Network, I am unable to get a good OTA feed where I am for NBC. Dish gets it's feed OTA. I don't watch a great deal of NBC but several weeks back I was getting a lot of audio and video breakups on what I did watch. This went on for several days, perhaps a week. I lodged a complaint with Dish and the issue seemed to go away. At this same time, I was seeing a lot of complaints of the same issue on the Yahoo Bay Area OTA website. These were strictly OTA viewers.

All that said, I just spent the last half hour watching KNTV and noticed several audio breaks and 2 video blips. I think something is going on at KNTV that needs to be fixed.

Bobby 

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post #12253 of 12264 Old Today, 01:14 PM
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^^^^^ that's very helpful. Thanks.
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post #12254 of 12264 Old Today, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Thanks, and thanks for those examples of the different types of macroblocking, very informative.
MPEG-2 bit-stream errors are pretty interesting. Exactly where they occur can make a big difference in the visual severity of the impairment. In my simulated example, I stacked the deck to make it more severe.

First, I chose an I-frame (also called a key-frame) that was right after a scene change. Then I flipped a bit that caused the decoder to realize that the bit-stream no longer makes sense. However, in MPEG-2 there is a resynchronization point at the first macroblock for each macroblock row (that is, the left hand side of the image).

Here's what that I-frame looks like. The error is in macroblock row 28 and column 27. The decoder gives up at column 40 (there are 1088/16 = 68 rows and 1920/16 = 120 columns). Since the decoder gave up, the orange video you see on that macroblock row is what's leftover in the frame buffer from a previous frame (in this case, since it's at a scene change, it's obviously different). The decoder resynchronizes on the next macroblock row.



But the following frames are all predicted from that key-frame. In my previous post, I showed the very next frame. Here's a frame that's 15 frames after the key-frame.



And then one 30 frames after the key-frame.



The next key-frame was 47 frames away, so this one bit error caused 1.5 seconds of impairment (which is very annoying to watch).

Ron

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post #12255 of 12264 Old Today, 01:54 PM
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What I'm seeing appears to be examples 2 and 3 above.
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post #12256 of 12264 Old Today, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post
Let me set my stage. I get KNTV over Dish Network, I am unable to get a good OTA feed where I am for NBC. Dish gets it's feed OTA. I don't watch a great deal of NBC but several weeks back I was getting a lot of audio and video breakups on what I did watch. This went on for several days, perhaps a week. I lodged a complaint with Dish and the issue seemed to go away. At this same time, I was seeing a lot of complaints of the same issue on the Yahoo Bay Area OTA website. These were strictly OTA viewers.

All that said, I just spent the last half hour watching KNTV and noticed several audio breaks and 2 video blips. I think something is going on at KNTV that needs to be fixed.
Sounds like it's time for everyone seeing this to complain to KNTV. Maybe they've received no complaints. It's possible they don't closely monitor their own OTA signal. It wouldn't be the first time.

Chuck
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post #12257 of 12264 Old Today, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post
Let me set my stage. I get KNTV over Dish Network, I am unable to get a good OTA feed where I am for NBC. Dish gets it's feed OTA. I don't watch a great deal of NBC but several weeks back I was getting a lot of audio and video breakups on what I did watch. This went on for several days, perhaps a week. I lodged a complaint with Dish and the issue seemed to go away. At this same time, I was seeing a lot of complaints of the same issue on the Yahoo Bay Area OTA website. These were strictly OTA viewers.

All that said, I just spent the last half hour watching KNTV and noticed several audio breaks and 2 video blips. I think something is going on at KNTV that needs to be fixed.
Tried to call, but can't get through without a name or extension number. Getting audio and video drops every 3-5 minutes.

Will try the FM trap when the disruptions are worse.
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post #12258 of 12264 Old Today, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Are you seeing the problem with the a same severity as Mark?

It's certainly possible that KNTV has a problem but one would think that a major network station would have addressed this by now.

Is everyone here seeing this with KNTV because it doesn't seem to be universal. I would expect more complaints if it's KNTV but maybe it's just ignored.

Chuck
Does anybody even bother to read the posts here? I've
had problems with channel 11, others have reported the
exact same problems from widely-separated geographic
locales. It's INTERMITTENT and will disappear for
hours and even days, and of course, how much you
experience depends on how much you watch channel
11.

Again, I blame Doug Lung...

Channel 11 and Channel 7 are the only two stations
I've ever called to complain about technical issues.
Channel 11 broadcasted a signal so crazy bad
for a few days that no TV/receiver I had could receive
it, and it friggin' crashed my Sony flatscreen in my
living room, I had to use the "secret" hard reset code,
not even a power cycle could fix the horrible state
the TV was in due to...Doug Lung...

Channel 7 I complained about the sound problems that
went on for several months. Within two hours of leaving
a message at channel 11 the problem that had been
occuring for days was fixed. Channel 7 didn't fix the
problem for at least another month, but it appeard to be
a network feed problem because it was identical on
Channel 10 in Sacramento. Maybe they passed the
info along to the network and eventually they figured
out what they were doing wrong.

If you really want Channel 11 fixed, you might try
calling them and leaving a message like I did (almost
no way to talk to a live person there, like Doug Lung,
Channel 7 I wound up talking to the technical operations
director after being passed through the news department).

OK, GET IT, THERE'S SOME KIND OF WIDESPREAD
PROBLEM WITH CHANNEL 11, READ THE POSTS,
ETCH THEM IN YOUR BRAIN.

--
maxreactance
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post #12259 of 12264 Unread Today, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by maxreactance View Post
Does anybody even bother to read the posts here? I've had problems with channel 11, others have reported the exact same problems from widely-separated geographic locales. It's INTERMITTENT and will disappear for hours and even days, and of course, how much you experience depends on how much you watch channel 11.

All I've read so far is intermittent reports of problems. Mark has been reporting severe problems yet no one has come on and confirmed the problem at the same time. If it's a KNTV problem then why no simultaneous reports here? If the problem is as bad as Mark has reported then anyone watching will be experiencing the problem.

Over the years there have been lots of reports posted here of reception problems on various stations by more than one person that turned out not be the station. You can't necessarily trust a bunch of random reports. Since no one reporting problems actually has the ability to determine the source of the problem, it makes the issue much more difficult to pin down.

If you guys really want to determine if it's a KNTV problem then you need to get together and verify that multiple people are seeing the same thing at the same time.

Chuck
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Is everyone here seeing this with KNTV because it doesn't seem to be universal. I would expect more complaints if it's KNTV but maybe it's just ignored.

Chuck
I saw it earlier this week when watching "The Voice" via Dish Network. Switched to OTA 11.1 and it's there, too. I think KNTV is the source of the problem! Something there is intermittent.

Larry

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulamI View Post
Hi Fellas,

Just want to run this by you again before I drag a bunch of stuff out to my cabin again to try for TV. My TV Fool report for 1849 Nicasio Valley Rd. gives me Mt. Tam as my best option for reception. I'm in the thick trees and can't see Mt. Tam 9 miles away. I have tried before with a simple roof top antenna without success about 6 months ago. Has anything changed/improved at Tam since then? According to the report should I be able to pick something up somehow? How?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f0a5ec3ccf8c
There's only one station on Mt. Tam, channel 3. It has 8 sub-channels. It's going off the air tomorrow to be replaced by KTVJ on channel 4, virtual 12. You'll find it on channel 12 on your TV. There's a station in Novato transmitting on channel 47, virtual 68. All of the other stations are from Sutro Tower in San Francisco, Mt. San Bruno - south of San Francisco, Mt. Diablo and Mt. St. Helena, and they're all very weak at your location according to your TV Fool report. Anything in the gray area of the report is usually difficult to receive. You're going to need a huge high-gain VHF/UHF antenna to get much of anything. A simple roof top antenna isn't going to get you much. You need something like this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...0Antennas&sku=
It's the Winegard HD7698P which has good gain for both VHF for channels 7 and 11, and for UHF for all of the rest of the stations. Or you need a good 10 element yagi for VHF like the AntennaCraft Y-10-7-13 and a Channel Master CM4228 or Antennas Direct 91XG for UHF.

Good luck!

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post #12262 of 12264 Unread Today, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I saw it earlier this week when watching "The Voice" via Dish Network. Switched to OTA 11.1 and it's there, too. I think KNTV is the source of the problem! Something there is intermittent.

Larry
I just checked the signal quality/signal strength around the 5:30pm news. According to my basic tv report, Channel 11.1 (12), the SQ = 100% and the SS = 74%. Digging deeper into the tv the SNR = 30dB with the Center Frequency at 207.00MHz.
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Tried the FM Trap. Can't tell if it made any difference because 11.1 is okay now.

However, with trap in line, 32 to 33 fell to 26 db SNR, and 10 bars went to 6 bars. Replaced back to original config (no Trap) and now the SNR is still at 24 and 7 bars. WTF ? Why with the AMP in place does the signal not return to 32-33 ?

Power-cycled the AMP and the TV, and still signal is not as before… it's staying at 26 db. Did I blow the amp ?

Unplugging the AC from the AMP ----> SNR = 24. Plugging AC in -----> 25.5 . Have three TV's attached to the AMP.

Explanation for 11.1 now at 25 after being 32-33 for weeks ?
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post #12264 of 12264 Unread Today, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I saw it earlier this week when watching "The Voice" via Dish Network. Switched to OTA 11.1 and it's there, too. I think KNTV is the source of the problem! Something there is intermittent.

Larry
Larry, I know you also have Comcast. How does it look there? Comcast is fiber fed direct to the POP.

Bobby 

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