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post #12331 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 11:07 AM
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Four Sutro Tower Stations will be on Aux Antenna this Wednesday for 2 hours

Good morning.

You are receiving this message as you have requested to be notified of Aux Antenna operation from Sutro Tower.

We have some work to do up on top of the tower this week that requires that three of our TV stations and one of our FM stations switch to their Auxiliary Antennas. This will be conducted between the hours of 10 AM and Noon on Wednesday, April 22. Since this use of Aux antennas only involves 4 of the 15 TV and FM stations at Sutro Tower, the radio frequency emissions will not be much above normal, and well below emissions when all TV and FM stations use Aux antennas.

Please let us know if you have any questions.

Eric Dausman
Vice President & COO
Sutro Tower, Inc.
1 La Avanzada Street
San Francisco, CA 94131
www.sutrotower.com
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post #12332 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I don't suppose this was the same transmitter they used on channel 3 in Phoenix in the early 70's when I was there?

I see that the K03HY antenna is pointed at 120 degrees and the KTVJ antenna plot show 90 degrees. I'm 80 degrees from Mt. Tam and 3dB down on the current antenna. The channel 4 antenna pointed at 90 degrees should make a big difference in the signal here.

Chuck
The antenna is pointed east. It may be a little off at 100 degrees instead and 90 degrees. I'll check it when I go back to the site. I'm working on getting the new antennas made for channel 4 instead of channel 3 installed.

I noticed your web site didn't yet list KTVJ as a station that you've received. :-)

Blessings,
Keith
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post #12333 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I don't suppose this was the same transmitter they used on channel 3 in Phoenix in the early 70's when I was there?

Chuck
The Channel 3 transmitter from Phoenix 3 was using was made in the year 2000 or so. It is a Harris Platinum Series transmitter. Phoenix 3 only got a few years of use out of it before turning it off in 2009. So, they actually purchased it after they were already simulcasting in digital. This is the transmitter that we grabbed and is being used by KCSO in Angels Camp. They are actually using two of the three amplifier cabinets with the third one being used as a spare. A few years ago, there wasn't very many choices for medium power digital transmitters. They should now consider moving to a more efficient transmitter now that there is more choices for low band VHF transmitters.

Blessings,
Keith
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post #12334 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 03:55 PM
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It's been a crazy reception day here. All stations in all directions have had huge swings in signal strength. At one point this morning Sutro and San Bruno signals were great at the same time. After noon they were bad. KRCR in Redding was taking out KGO. KHSL was coming in well. At the same time KNTV, KKPX and KTSF were very good. This morning KBTV in Sacramento was SNR 31 dB. Normal is 20 dB. Salinas had it's wild swings, poor this morning and booming this afternoon. The normal rule of inversions going away in the afternoon didn't apply today.

Chuck

Edit: More strong ducting. Image attached of KAXT with diagnostic screen - SNR 31.3 dB.
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Last edited by Calaveras; Yesterday at 04:26 PM.
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post #12335 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
It's been a crazy reception day here. All stations in all directions have had huge swings in signal strength. At one point this morning Sutro and San Bruno signals were great at the same time. After noon they were bad. KRCR in Redding was taking out KGO. KHSL was coming in well. At the same time KNTV, KKPX and KTSF were very good. This morning KBTV in Sacramento was SNR 31 dB. Normal is 20 dB. Salinas had it's wild swings, poor this morning and booming this afternoon. The normal rule of inversions going away in the afternoon didn't apply today.

Chuck
Hi Chuck,

What about KFTY-LD and KTVJ-LP?

Blessings,
Keith
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post #12336 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
All I've read so far is intermittent reports of problems. Mark has been reporting severe problems yet no one has come on and confirmed the problem at the same time. If it's a KNTV problem then why no simultaneous reports here? If the problem is as bad as Mark has reported then anyone watching will be experiencing the problem.

Over the years there have been lots of reports posted here of reception problems on various stations by more than one person that turned out not be the station. You can't necessarily trust a bunch of random reports. Since no one reporting problems actually has the ability to determine the source of the problem, it makes the issue much more difficult to pin down.

If you guys really want to determine if it's a KNTV problem then you need to get together and verify that multiple people are seeing the same thing at the same time.

Chuck
Seems multiple people ARE seeing it, but only
intermittently, and maybe not that many people
watch KNTV anyway.

Look, probably the only five people who watch
broadcast TV over an antenna post here, the majority
of people have cable in this area in particular, and I've
never ceased to be amazed at how bad things have
to be before somebody actually complains.

Part of the problem here is that the first thing the
regular posters here will do is recommend a new
antenna...

I DO always assume some kind of local interference;
for example, the gardners were running leaf blowers
and hedge-trimmers today when I was home for lunch,
and sure enough, I had "macroblocking" coming out
the wazoo. My basic rule is that if I can hear something,
like a plane or a two-stroke gas engine, I expect to have
problems, and if I don't hear it, I still expect to have
problems...

The value here IS that people can report the same problems
from many different areas, thus making it much less likely
that the problem is anything local or anything that is related
to an airport or something like that that's been there forever
but never caused any problems before (besides which,
the flight paths for SFO are BELOW the transmitting
antenna).

Again, I blame Doug Lung...

--
maxreactance
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post #12337 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Hi Chuck,

What about KFTY-LD and KTVJ-LP?

Blessings,
Keith
Low VHF is not affected as much as high VHF and especially UHF but they were stronger this afternoon. The attached image shows the nominal signals in yellow from Saturday and the enhanced signals in magenta this afternoon. KCSO which is LOS and only 14 miles away never changes.

I still think KTVJ will be SNR 28 dB all the time if the signal can be flattened and the high end raised to the level of low end. I suspect it is the antenna and not my path.

Chuck
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post #12338 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Can anyone explain why 4.1 and 7.1 have such flat, muffled audio which lacks "presence" compared to most other TV stations ? Those two stations give an uncomfortable audio experience.
OH NO!!!!

I hope channel 7 hasn't had a re-occurence of the audio
problems they had for me about a year ago, "Dancing
With The Stars" is on tonight, and for most of the season
last year I couldn't hear it!

Near as I can tell, these types of problems may be a
result of subtle mis-matches between the audio encoding
from the station/network and decoding in your receiver.

How bad is it? I couldn't hear dialog on channel 7 if
there was any background noise, but it's been fine for
quite a while after I complained about it...

--
maxreactance
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post #12339 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxreactance View Post
Seems multiple people ARE seeing it, but only
intermittently, and maybe not that many people
watch KNTV anyway.

Look, probably the only five people who watch
broadcast TV over an antenna post here, the majority
of people have cable in this area in particular, and I've
never ceased to be amazed at how bad things have
to be before somebody actually complains.

Part of the problem here is that the first thing the
regular posters here will do is recommend a new
antenna...

maxreactance
I would suggest to blast those problem reception comments on the KNTV Facebook page.
THAT will get their attention.... (Possibly sending a CC to corporate) for every viewer comment.
I do not believe many stations read or care about AVSforum.
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post #12340 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 05:19 PM
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KNTV now as clean as KGO was.

Code:
G:\HDTV>REM FullStream3.bat Working 4/18/2015
G:\HDTV>REM
G:\HDTV>REM 1) Use HDHomeRun Config (GUI) to choose the physical channel.
G:\HDTV>REM Ctrl-C to stop after 30 seconds.
G:\HDTV>REM
G:\HDTV>"C:\Program Files\Silicondust\HDHomeRun\hdhomerun_config" 101A7308 set /
tuner0/filter "0x0000-0x1FFF"
G:\HDTV>"C:\Program Files\Silicondust\HDHomeRun\hdhomerun_config" 101A7308 save
/tuner0 sample3.ts
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
.............
-- Video statistics --
1204394 packets received, 0 overflow errors, 0 network errors, 0 transport error
s, 0 sequence errors
Terminate batch job (Y/N)? n
G:\HDTV>REM
G:\HDTV>Pause
Press any key to continue . . .
Continuity errors: 0
TEI errors: 0

SHF
Attached Files
File Type: zip KNTV-10.zip (2.1 KB, 0 views)
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post #12341 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxreactance View Post
Seems multiple people ARE seeing it, but only
intermittently, and maybe not that many people
watch KNTV anyway.

Look, probably the only five people who watch
broadcast TV over an antenna post here, the majority
of people have cable in this area in particular, and I've
never ceased to be amazed at how bad things have
to be before somebody actually complains.

Part of the problem here is that the first thing the
regular posters here will do is recommend a new
antenna...

I DO always assume some kind of local interference;
for example, the gardners were running leaf blowers
and hedge-trimmers today when I was home for lunch,
and sure enough, I had "macroblocking" coming out
the wazoo. My basic rule is that if I can hear something,
like a plane or a two-stroke gas engine, I expect to have
problems, and if I don't hear it, I still expect to have
problems...

The value here IS that people can report the same problems
from many different areas, thus making it much less likely
that the problem is anything local or anything that is related
to an airport or something like that that's been there forever
but never caused any problems before (besides which,
the flight paths for SFO are BELOW the transmitting
antenna).

Again, I blame Doug Lung...

--
maxreactance
yet, we practically trouble shot the issue right here, Doug was notified and the issue seems to be gone. Maybe you didn't notice my post talking about DishNetwork's feed being OTA and that adds many, many viewers to the antenna folk... That, in itself, brings credence to the fact that there was an OTA issue right here....

Bobby 

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post #12342 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Another reason is that analog TV was two separate transmitters, one for the video and an FM transmitter for the audio. If the radio had an FM receiver then all there was to receive TV audio was add in the frequency converters to tune the TV channels. In DTV everything that a station transmits is in one data stream. There's no simple way to just get the audio so there's not much point in building an audio only receiver. Unlike analog TV where you might have poor picture but good audio, the audio in DTV has the same reception issues as the picture.

Chuck


Very well-written and understandable. Thank you so much.

KNTV perfect so far today, all day. Does anyone know what was wrong and how it was fixed ? Or was nothing fixed and today is a Lucky Day (420) ?
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post #12343 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Code:
G:\HDTV>REM FullStream3.bat Working 4/18/2015
G:\HDTV>REM
G:\HDTV>REM 1) Use HDHomeRun Config (GUI) to choose the physical channel.
G:\HDTV>REM Ctrl-C to stop after 30 seconds.
G:\HDTV>REM
G:\HDTV>"C:\Program Files\Silicondust\HDHomeRun\hdhomerun_config" 101A7308 set /
tuner0/filter "0x0000-0x1FFF"
G:\HDTV>"C:\Program Files\Silicondust\HDHomeRun\hdhomerun_config" 101A7308 save
/tuner0 sample3.ts
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
................................................................................
.............
-- Video statistics --
1204394 packets received, 0 overflow errors, 0 network errors, 0 transport error
s, 0 sequence errors
Terminate batch job (Y/N)? n
G:\HDTV>REM
G:\HDTV>Pause
Press any key to continue . . .
Continuity errors: 0
TEI errors: 0

SHF


How was it fixed ? What was wrong ?
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post #12344 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxreactance View Post
OH NO!!!!

I hope channel 7 hasn't had a re-occurence of the audio
problems they had for me about a year ago, "Dancing
With The Stars" is on tonight, and for most of the season
last year I couldn't hear it!

Near as I can tell, these types of problems may be a
result of subtle mis-matches between the audio encoding
from the station/network and decoding in your receiver.

How bad is it? I couldn't hear dialog on channel 7 if
there was any background noise, but it's been fine for
quite a while after I complained about it...

--
maxreactance



Not "bad", but a substantial difference in audio quality from 11.1. They both have a lack of lower mid-range, lack of depth, lack of richness. . . . like someone put a thick blanket over the speaker output.
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post #12345 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
How was it fixed ? What was wrong ?
1) We told Doug.

2) Stations do not monitor their signals.

SHF
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post #12346 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
I noticed your web site didn't yet list KTVJ as a station that you've received. :-)

Blessings,
Keith

I added it but I don't have a new image showing KTVJ in the ID.

Chuck
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post #12347 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
What was wrong ?

We'll probably never know.

Chuck
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post #12348 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
It's been a crazy reception day here. All stations in all directions have had huge swings in signal strength.
Chuck
Edit: More strong ducting. Image attached of KAXT with diagnostic screen - SNR 31.3 dB.
I was out all day and missed all the fun.

15 kW at 120 miles or so... that's a rootin'-tootin' good signal you got!

I saw an interesting situation last evening. KTVJ has been coming in steady at about 19 dB SNR here or a signal strength of 80 on the HD HomeRun receiver. Last night I noticed that the signal was dropping a little, bouncing between 70 and 76 with occasional dips to 65. Then all of a sudden the signal took a nose dive and went from 72 to 39 and back up to 76 in just a 15 second time period. Now that's a major swing in signal strength for a station that's just 14 miles away! After that it was fairly steady in the 70 to 75 range. Could the heavy fog coming through the Golden Gate cause a sudden change like that? Tonight KTVJ is back up to 80.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
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post #12349 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 08:47 PM
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
1) We told Doug.

2) Stations do not monitor their signals.

SHF


1. Why do you think Doug was responsible, directly or in directly, for fixing it ?

2. Will someone find out what was malfunctioning and let us know ?
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post #12350 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 09:43 PM
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It's the chicken pluckers NOT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
1. Why do you think Doug was responsible, directly or in directly, for fixing it ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post

2. Will someone find out what was malfunctioning and let us know ?


1) Doug likely has the phone number or the e-mail address of someone responsible for the station engineering directly or can get messages to them.

A couple of years ago a station had the virtual channel field blank or zero and was in effect turning another stations transmitter off. I finally started asking questions where Chuck and the other real experts hang out. One of them looked up in the FCC records the person responsible for the station and called him. The problem was fixed very quickly.

Then there is this post, did you not see it?

San Francisco, CA - OTA

2) It is very unlikely that they will tell anyone outside of NBC what was wrong, they will not tell us for sure.

It is like how I got two streams booted off a station a while back. When I asked the program listings be included for those two streams that request was seen by one of the bean counters who told management that they had two streams on their transmitter that they were getting NO MONEY FOR. One part of a station may not have much contact with other parts,

While others think otherwise, I still consider the LA to SF link from KNBC (where KNBC, KNTV and KNSD) are controlled to be a possible source.

Do you really want to know how sausages is made. Or see a video of how chickens are made into nuggets? No there are not thousands of people pulling their feathers off by hand and cutting them up.

SHF


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post #12351 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
1) Doug likely has the phone number or the e-mail address of someone responsible for the station engineering directly or can get messages to them.

A couple of years ago a station had the virtual channel field blank or zero and was in effect turning another stations transmitter off. I finally started asking questions where Chuck and the other real experts hang out. One of them looked up in the FCC records the person responsible for the station and called him. The problem was fixed very quickly.

Then there is this post, did you not see it?

San Francisco, CA - OTA

Never saw that post until now. Too busy eating chicken nuggets with feathers.
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post #12352 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 11:47 PM
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Hi guys.

I'm thinking of cutting the cable soon. Can anyone comment on network reception in general from the Santa Rosa area? I understand, in my limited knowledge of the subject, that this would greatly depend on the antenna I use. I plan to give a cheapo set top Amazon special a try first, and will gradually, if I'm dissatisfied, work up to one which will allow me to communicate with Martians.

B&W CM9 S2, B&W CMC2 S2, DefTech XTR-20BP, SVS SB-2000, Parasound Halo A21, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Samsung UN55F8000, Apple Mac Mini, Iomega NAS
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post #12353 of 12354 Old Yesterday, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
Hi guys.

I'm thinking of cutting the cable soon. Can anyone comment on network reception in general from the Santa Rosa area? I understand, in my limited knowledge of the subject, that this would greatly depend on the antenna I use. I plan to give a cheapo set top Amazon special a try first, and will gradually, if I'm dissatisfied, work up to one which will allow me to communicate with Martians.
Go to: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

and paste the link in a post here.

Parts of the North Bay are impossible, one person tried for five (5) years and finally gave up. With the first location he gave I knew the answer.

SHF
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post #12354 of 12354 Old Today, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
I am racking my brain to remember previous tools I used and Terry may have used to collect his data.

Terry's post http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-local-hdtv-info-reception/369015-san-francisco-ca-ota-409.html#post33573473
Sorry, I missed a day's posts recently and only saw this tonight. Nani, you have the same tool that I used: CW_EPG Cliff Watson EPG add-on for MyHD, FusionHDTV, and HD Homerun. It keeps a log of recording statistics for all of your HDHR captures. You can quickly see the most recent 50 of them by entering "localhost:8181/recent" in your HTPC's browser. You can review the older captures by looking at the table named CW_EPG_CAPTURES in cw_record.mdb on your HTPC.

Last edited by TPeterson; Today at 12:16 AM.
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