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post #12361 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
I'm deep enough into G section that there aren't many heavy trees directly to my south, just a lot of (mostly) single story homes. I'll definitely look into antennas which are both UHF and VHF capable. I usually watch channel 7 news, so it's a bummer to hear that it's spotty. Thanks for the advice!
Here's your TV Fool report for your street intersection:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f0f9f9e2a445

There's a large area around this intersection where the predicted signal strengths are equal.

Signals are mostly weak but not impossible. Mine are weaker. It will require a preamp and a good outdoor antenna that's high enough to clear the trees. You'll need a notch filter for KRCB on channel 23 because it'll overload any preamp.

I wouldn't consider any antenna smaller than the Winegard HD7698P or the AntennaCraft HBU55. A good preamp would be the Clearstream Juice.

Cost:

HD7698P - $125
Preamp - $80
Notch Filter - $125
Coax, Mast, Mounting, etc - ???

Since all the San Francisco stations are 2 edge, I can almost guarantee you that you'll receive all the stations but not 100%. There'll be conditions where the stations won't come in. There's no way to know without trying it.

Chuck
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post #12362 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
Interesting comment about your neighbor's trees. So did the conversation go something like, "Good morning Earl. Hey listen, those two trees of yours are really cocking up my TV reception. Can I pay to have them trimmed for you?" If so, at what point do buying fancy antennas, mounts, trimming neighbors trees etc outweigh the cost of just staying with cable and having tons more programming to watch? Hmmm

I'm deep enough into G section that there aren't many heavy trees directly to my south, just a lot of (mostly) single story homes. I'll definitely look into antennas which are both UHF and VHF capable. I usually watch channel 7 news, so it's a bummer to hear that it's spotty. Thanks for the advice!
Actually, I didn't know what the issue was at the time. My neighbor just trimmed his trees because he wanted to. After he was done, I saw a marked improvement in reception. With a VHF antenna channel 7 and 11 will not be spotty at all. There is a police officer in the G section who has a humungous antenna on his house, really really tall mast. I recall him saying that his reception was excellent. That was a number of years ago. I'm not sure that you would need all that humungous an antenna, just a good one. I don't know that you need as much height as he has either. I've got a 10' mast, or so, attached to the chimney of my single story home and it works just fine, except for the VHF stuff that is my own fault because I don't have a VHF rated antenna.

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post #12363 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post
There is a police officer in the G section who has a humungous antenna on his house, really really tall mast. I recall him saying that his reception was excellent. That was a number of years ago. I'm not sure that you would need all that humungous an antenna, just a good one.

Is this current or a long time ago? I know a retired CHP officer and ham operator who lived in the Santa Rosa area with a ham tower and high TV antennas but this was back in the early 80's. He said his TV reception was fine. A "humungous" antenna is probably a ham antenna and not a TV antenna.

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post #12364 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 02:12 PM
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Ktvj

Has anyone noticed a reception issue with KTVJ today? I've attached the image from yesterday showing the nominal (yellow) and enhanced (magenta) signals for KFTY and KTVJ. I added two traces from today, blue trace 11:40 am and green trace 2 pm. KFTY appears to be a little above nominal but KTVJ by 2 pm is about 12 dB weaker at the low end and 20 dB weaker in the middle. This is not right and I don't think it's just conditions. The KTVJ power slope is much steeper than yesterday. I'll keep an eye on it just in case I'm getting fooled.

Edit: I guess it was just conditions as the signal has recovered its shape and much of its strength but still below the last 3 days. The path to Mt. Tam must be much different than the path to Mt. St. Helena.

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post #12365 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Not "bad", but a substantial difference in audio quality from 11.1. They both have a lack of lower mid-range, lack of depth, lack of richness. . . . like someone put a thick blanket over the speaker output.
Might just "business as usual" with a lot of compression
and whatnot, because "Dancing With The Stars" audio
last night was OK, understandable, but not great, which
may be what you're noting...could be "crisper", right?

I'm always shocked at all broadcast audio after watching
one of my Blu-Rays with the DTS Master Audio, set so
normal conversation in the movie is like normal
conversation in the room. Then when the motorcycles
or other loud vehicles start rumbling in the movie, the
dinosaurs start stomping around, whatever, it is LOUD,
and beyond that, it hits you in the chest, and rattles the
windows and moves the floor, even more so than the
most current laughable "theater experiences".

Then going back to broadcast audio, running through
the same sound system, it sounds all muffled and soft.
I'm not sure if the FCC still has the dynamic range rules
they used to have, sometimes you get a little boom out
of broadcast, but nothing like a Blu-Ray.

--
maxreactance
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post #12366 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Is this current or a long time ago? I know a retired CHP officer and ham operator who lived in the Santa Rosa area with a ham tower and high TV antennas but this was back in the early 80's. He said his TV reception was fine. A "humungous" antenna is probably a ham antenna and not a TV antenna.

Chuck
Definitely not the same person. This was in the last 5 or 6 years. The antenna wasn't really all that humungous, just a super-super fringe variety. I know what a ham rig looks like. I saw some web stuff about it and went to see the system. Definitely TV and very tall, complete with a lot of guying. Very unusual look for this area....

Bobby 

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post #12367 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Has anyone noticed a reception issue with KTVJ today?
Edit: I guess it was just conditions as the signal has recovered its shape and much of its strength but still below the last 3 days. The path to Mt. Tam must be much different than the path to Mt. St. Helena.
Chuck
Earlier today around 10 am and later about 1 pm, KTVJ was at it's normal level of 19 dB SNR, 76% on the HDHR receiver. When I just read your post I checked on it and the signal was doing the same thing as it was the other night, varying a lot from 76 to about 70 with occasional dips to 65, 19 dB down to 16 dB, but now it's settled back in at a steady 76, 19 dB, and isn't changing at all. Signal quality on the HDHR holds at about 68%.

Conditions or transmitter problems??? I don't know. I'm receiving the station off the side of my 10 element High VHF yagi pointed toward Walnut Grove. I don't have anything for low VHF except the LP345 and that's locked in at 220 degrees. I get KTVJ at 13 dB SNR off the back of it.

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post #12368 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Earlier today around 10 am and later about 1 pm, KTVJ was at it's normal level of 19 dB SNR, 76% on the HDHR receiver. When I just read your post I checked on it and the signal was doing the same thing as it was the other night, varying a lot from 76 to about 70 with occasional dips to 65, 19 dB down to 16 dB, but now it's settled back in at a steady 76, 19 dB, and isn't changing at all. Signal quality on the HDHR holds at about 68%.

Conditions or transmitter problems??? I don't know.

Larry

I'm also seeing it back to normal. I wasn't able to check it the other night when you were having problems. Conditions didn't seem to be unusual this afternoon on any other stations. I'll say something here if I see it go down again when nothing else is.

Chuck
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post #12369 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 06:13 PM
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OK... I'll spot check it this evening to see what the signal is doing. We have solid overcast here due to low clouds and fog. I haven't seen the sun all day here.

Right now KTVJ is varying between 70 and 80% on the HDHR and 17 to 20 dB SNR, no errors, on my Sony, where it was steady at 76%, 19 dB earlier.

All of the other signals have been about normal today... nothing exceptional noted.

Larry

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post #12370 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Has anyone noticed a reception issue with KTVJ today?
Chuck
Bedroom wall outlet ... spectrum analyzer readings. Today @ 8 pm
4- KTVJ ...... 57.5 dbuV, 23 SNR, 21 MER
3- K03HY...... 30.0 dbuV
2- KFTY ..... 34.4 dbuV
- Turning on that "known problem" electronic ballast (created a signal / noise ? )
3- K03HY 31.7 dbuV (rapid like pulse)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
OK... I'll spot check it this evening to see what the signal is doing.
Larry
Spectrum analyzer test on those coax "FM Traps" made for tv. Usually sold at Radio Shack.
Test from the bedroom wall coax tv outlet. Test 88.5 FM
Before trap installed .....83.4 dbuV
After trap installed .......74.2 dbuV
Doesn't seem to trap very well. More like a "FM dimmer"
Verdict ... do not buy.
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post #12371 of 12385 Old 04-21-2015, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
Interesting comment about your neighbor's trees. So did the conversation go something like, "Good morning Earl. Hey listen, those two trees of yours are really cocking up my TV reception. Can I pay to have them trimmed for you?"
Not for TV reception, but I had a neighbor's tree removed at my expense, because it was making a mess on our driveway; when we asked them about it, they said they had been trying to kill it for years, but when they went on a long vacation it got too established; they were happy for it to be gone at no cost to them. The tree in the way for me is an oak tree about the same age as the house, we just put the antenna way in the back of the property, on a detached garage so it has LOS without oak leaves.
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post #12372 of 12385 Old Yesterday, 12:04 AM
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Chuck... Every time I've spot checked KTVJ tonight the signal strength has been between 70 and 76, 17 - 19 dB. I didn't notice any big swings.

Larry

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post #12373 of 12385 Old Yesterday, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Chuck... Every time I've spot checked KTVJ tonight the signal strength has been between 70 and 76, 17 - 19 dB. I didn't notice any big swings.

Larry

I haven't seen anything unusual since when I posted. Looks okay this morning. Must have been conditions but it was one of the strangest fades I have ever seen with KFTY completely unaffected. Looks normal this morning.

Chuck
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post #12374 of 12385 Old Yesterday, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
Bedroom wall outlet ... spectrum analyzer readings. Today @ 8 pm
4- KTVJ ...... 57.5 dbuV, 23 SNR, 21 MER

When you look at KTVJ on your analyzer does it have the same steep slope as seen here on my analyzer image?

Chuck
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post #12375 of 12385 Old Yesterday, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
When you look at KTVJ on your analyzer does it have the same steep slope as seen here on my analyzer image?

Chuck
No, no slope here... normal blob with a peak near the middle.
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post #12376 of 12385 Old Yesterday, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
No, no slope here... normal blob with a peak near the middle.
Then I won't be seeing any improvement when Keith puts up the new antenna. I've seen slopes on other stations but nothing this dramatic. You never know what to expect.

Chuck
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post #12377 of 12385 Old Yesterday, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Here's your TV Fool report for your street intersection:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f0f9f9e2a445

There's a large area around this intersection where the predicted signal strengths are equal.

Signals are mostly weak but not impossible. Mine are weaker. It will require a preamp and a good outdoor antenna that's high enough to clear the trees. You'll need a notch filter for KRCB on channel 23 because it'll overload any preamp.

I wouldn't consider any antenna smaller than the Winegard HD7698P or the AntennaCraft HBU55. A good preamp would be the Clearstream Juice.

Cost:

HD7698P - $125
Preamp - $80
Notch Filter - $125
Coax, Mast, Mounting, etc - ???

Since all the San Francisco stations are 2 edge, I can almost guarantee you that you'll receive all the stations but not 100%. There'll be conditions where the stations won't come in. There's no way to know without trying it.

Chuck

Hey, thanks Chuck.


That's a lot of great info, and a bit less costly than I thought. I'll certainly look into it.


Regarding the cop in G section...there is a cop who lives down my same street. I ought to walk over there and see if he's the one with the antenna on his house. If so, I'll ask him about it.


Thanks again everybody!

B&W CM9 S2, B&W CMC2 S2, DefTech XTR-20BP, SVS SB-2000, Parasound Halo A21, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Samsung UN55F8000, Apple Mac Mini, Iomega NAS
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post #12378 of 12385 Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM
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As of 2 pm, KTVJ's signal is higher than it has been. It's up to 87%-71% signal quality and 21 dB SNR this afternoon, and holding very steady.

All of the other signals appear to be at about normal levels.

Larry

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KTVJ has not recovered to what I saw on Saturday-Monday but much better than yesterday. KFTY has been typical. It could be that KTVJ is not as strong as I was expecting and the weekend was just exceptionally good. Every time there's lightning over the Sierras I get errors on KFTY and KTVJ.

Chuck
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I lived in Richmond/San Pablo area and I want your expertise on what's the best antenna setup for my location base of tvfool report that follows: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f0096f79d7c6 thanks in advance
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I lived in Richmond/San Pablo area and I want your expertise on what's the best antenna setup for my location base of tvfool report that follows: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f0096f79d7c6 thanks in advance
You have lots of strong signals, so an average VHF/UHF antenna should work fine for you. Something like the Winegard HD7694 - http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...694P&ss=526979 - should get signals from all the stations, but your problem is that the signals come from several different directions. You can see that on the TV Fool diagram. You have 11 stations coming from Sutro Tower in San Francisco, 4 stations from Mt. San Bruno, just south of San Francisco, 6 stations coming from the hills above Fremont, two from Mt. Diablo, several from Walnut Grove and several from Marin and Sonoma Counties. You can either concentrate on getting the ones from Sutro and Mt. San Bruno and get the others hit or miss, or you can get a rotor so that you can turn the antenna in any direction you need.

I strongly recommend that you mount the antenna outside on the roof, not in the attic. Roofing materials can decrease your signal strength up to 50%.

Larry

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtscl View Post
I lived in Richmond/San Pablo area and I want your expertise on what's the best antenna setup for my location base of tvfool report that follows: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...f1f0096f79d7c6 thanks in advance

Which stations are you most interested in receiving? Most people want just one antenna pointed in one direction and that's it. If that's you then Larry's recommendation for the HD7694P pointed to Sutro/San Bruno should be fine. You don't have line-of-sight to the transmitters though so the antenna must be mounted on your roof and should not be looking through thick trees or pointed into the side of another building. The stations in Walnut Grove and Fremont are very weak and would require a substantial antenna system with a rotor to have any chance of receiving them.

How long of a coax run will you have? How many TVs will the antenna feed? Your answer to these will determine if a preamp or distribution amp would be helpful.

Chuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
No, no slope here... normal blob with a peak near the middle.
This is nice to hear that there is not a slope in your direction. The FCC updated the call letters today for KTVJ-LP to be KTVJ-LD and granted the license and updated the city of license to San Rafael.
I'm working on getting everything lined up to construct K02QX-D on May 22nd on Mt. Chual / Mt. Loma Prieta.

Also, the OMI stations are switching to Dynamic PSIP instead of Static PSIP. I should get the new software to do this on Monday. Then, I'll have to figure out how to keep the program data current.

Blessings,
Keith
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Ben's Preamps

Ben sent me some preamps to test, including a couple of really old ones. Here's a summary:

RCA AMP1450R

Gain High VHF/UHF - 12-13 dB
Noise Figure VHF - 4.4 - 4.6 dB
Noise Figure UHF - 4.1 - 4.8 dB
IP3 UHF - +25 dBm

This amp is basically a clone of the discontinued Winegard HDP-269 except that it has an FM trap. The gain is about 1 dB higher and the Noise Figure is about 0.5 dB higher than the Winegard. As I noted elsewhere, the RCA TVPRAMP1R is a clone of the Winegard AP8700 except that it has the VHF separate input. The noise figure isn't very good but with low gain and low-moderate IP3 it might be okay for an attic antenna if you're on a tight budget.


Winegard Boost LNA200 - I thought I was getting an LNA100 so I didn't extensively test this. A few checks showed it was the same as the other LNA200 I tested...... not very good. I don't recommend it for anything.


Old Preamps

Clear Vue GI-099004 - This one of those amps that can use the house wiring as an antenna. I tested the regular 75 ohm input.

Gain Low Setting - 5.6 - 13.2 dB
Gain High Setting - 12.0 - 15.1 dB
Noise Figure UHF Low Gain - 12.0 - 15.1 dB (Really bad. Forget the low gain.)
Noise Figure UHF High Gain - 4.2 - 5.3 dB
IP3 - +17.9 dBm (Poor)

I wouldn't recommend using this amp for anything. The AMP1450R is a much better replacement.


Video Master AB415 - This must be really old. It is 300 ohms in and out. I had to use my calibrated 300:75 baluns to test it. The numbers below have the balun losses subtracted out.

Gain VHF/UHF - 12 - 16 dB
Noise Figure UHF - 3.4 - 4.9 dB
IP3 - +14.7 dBm (This is very poor.)

This amp has no filters of any kind. Due to its very poor IP3 I wouldn't even use it in a 300 ohm system.

While I'm at it I tested a very old (1980's vintage) Winegard PA-8275 (yes PA-8275, not AP8275). It's in a metal box with all discrete components inside. It has separate VHF and UHF paths. Looks like the UHF init device is a FET and the VHF input device is a transistor.

Gain Low VHF - 30 - 32 dB (ouch!)
Gain High VHF - 23 - 26 dB
Gain UHF - 27 - 33 dB
Noise Figure Low VHF - 4.3 - 5.9 dB
Noise Figure High VHF - 4.3 - 5.4 dB
Noise Figure UHF - 2.8 - 3.1 dB
IP3 Low VHF - +32dBm
IP3 High VHF - +31dBm
IP3 UHF - +28dBm

This preamp was spec'd at NF VHF 2.0dB and NF UHF 1.0 dB. I've yet to find a preamp that meets its claimed noise figure. I'm beginning to think that the manufacturers simply use the input device noise figure spec and never measure the final product.

Chuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Ben sent me some preamps to test, including a couple of really old ones. Here's a summary:
RCA AMP1450R
Video Master AB415 - This must be really old. It is 300 ohms in and out.
Chuck
So here's what I used those amps for.
RCA AMP1450R .........KEMO,KTLN, KRCB on a attic antenna sweet spot found by "probing" .... KEMO is -15dm NM on the tvfool report. Works ok.
Winegard Boost LNA200.....Nothing, ... I will return it. Sold at Home Depot.
Video Master 300 ohm ..... Was used on the "Gold Double UHF indoor Bowtie" models sold in the 1970s & 1980s. Now headed to the next e-waste event
Clear vue amp (house wiring) .....Temporary setups such as backyard tv for projects, etc .... When you just want to run a power cord to a spot.
It's hit or miss if it works on the channel you want to watch. .... Time to toss this one as well ...
Thanks for the testing report!
Ben
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