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post #12391 of 12412 Old 04-25-2015, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
At 6:40 pm I just found K03HY back on the air and KTVJ 12 gone. Keith must be working up at the Mt. Tam site.

Larry

Sure enough. KCSO is gone again. I wonder what's going on?

Chuck
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post #12392 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Sure enough. KCSO is gone again. I wonder what's going on?
Chuck
At 11 o'clock tonight channel 3 was still on and 4 was off. Now at 12:20 am neither station is on the air. We'll have to see what happens tomorrow.

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post #12393 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulamI View Post
Just assembled my Winegard, big sucker, hope to try it tomorrow. Is there a rule of thumb on how long a coax cable can be before amplification is necessary? And if one type of coax can go longer than another how do I tell what type I have?

Too muddy to get up the hill to my cabin today so I am playing with the new Winegard antenna at my house in Novato. Depending where I point it I'm pulling in stations from Santa Rosa, Walnut Grove, San Jose and of course Sutro. Basically what I am learning is that what I get from one area is pretty much available on another station from another area (major network wise). I also get some channels from a transmitter but not others, which are putting out a weaker signal I assume.

Questions: Do I point the antenna in the direction it shows on the circle of the TV Fool report (assuming the x y axis of that report is roughly equal to what google maps shows as NSEW)? Second, if there is a hill or tree in the direction I want to point should I aim slightly around that obstacle?

I get about 45 channels when I point it south, about 20 pointed east and 10 north. I'm really just killing time and learning a little bit until I can try it at the cabin (tomorrow hopefully), and if I get one or two channels there I will consider it a success.

Thanks for the replies ^^

Paul
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post #12394 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulamI View Post
Questions: Do I point the antenna in the direction it shows on the circle of the TV Fool report (assuming the x y axis of that report is roughly equal to what google maps shows as NSEW)? Second, if there is a hill or tree in the direction I want to point should I aim slightly around that obstacle?

You should point in the direction given by your TV Fool report, table or the compass.

Signals do not go around hills or trees. It would be nice if they did. They refract over the top, if they can.

Chuck
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post #12395 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulamI View Post
Too muddy to get up the hill to my cabin today so I am playing with the new Winegard antenna at my house in Novato.
Questions: Do I point the antenna in the direction it shows on the circle of the TV Fool report
Thanks for the replies ^^

Paul
What I would do is set your tv to "channel 7", then point to San Francisco until it comes in best, ..... Then do a "scan"

Usually if your antenna does not have a view of .. "Clear sky" without shade & trees,..... UHF reception is going to be a real challenge.
In that case, "probing" for signal is a last chance.
If the ground is clear of brush, with better views of the sky, .... a lower elevation possibly.
Let us know what happens,
Ben
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post #12396 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 05:01 PM
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If I was able to get the antenna up above the trees at the cabin it would be 200 ft. of coax just to get back to the ground but it would give me a pretty clear sight in a couple of directions (unfortunately not south). Could the degradation from the coax length be overcome?

Thanks Chuck
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post #12397 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulamI View Post
If I was able to get the antenna up above the trees at the cabin it would be 200 ft. of coax just to get back to the ground but it would give me a pretty clear sight in a couple of directions (unfortunately not south). Could the degradation from the coax length be overcome?

Thanks Chuck
The best location "is the location" with nothing in front of the UHF yagi elements (very small ones) for 100+ feet, and the elements see blue sky.
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post #12398 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PaulamI View Post
If I was able to get the antenna up above the trees at the cabin it would be 200 ft. of coax just to get back to the ground but it would give me a pretty clear sight in a couple of directions (unfortunately not south). Could the degradation from the coax length be overcome?

Thanks Chuck
Yes, it can be. Let's say you needed 300' of RG-11 which is 3.4 dB loss per 100' at channel 51. You'd also want to have a distribution amp such as the CM341x series in the house because it has a lower noise figure than the TV.

I have a rule of thumb to use for determining the required preamp gain to not degrade the preamp noise figure by much. It is:

Coax Loss + First amp Noise Figure + 8 dB

In this case that would be 10.2 + 2.5 + 8 = 20.7 dB. It's no problem getting a preamp with that amount of gain.

I have a total of 575' of coax to my UHF antennas. 480' is low loss CATV hardline with 1.8 dB loss/100' at channel 51, 75' of RG-11 and 20' of RG-6. The total loss is 15 dB. I have a second set of UHF antennas on a 2nd tower and that coax run is 685' and it still works fine with a Tin Lee 30 dB gain preamp.

It's not the coax loss so much that's the problem, it's getting the antenna mounted on the top of a tree. Even if you were to do that, aren't you on the wrong side of Mt. Tam? You should run your TV Fool report for the proposed location using the height above the trees.

Chuck
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post #12399 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 08:09 PM
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Thanks Ben and Chuck. I have a monkey for a neighbor. But yes, Tam is smack dab between me and SF, along with my own hillside and the worst of the trees. I guess I'm hoping for something from the east or north, or from the Tam transmitter. Even then I have Mt. Burdell to the north and Big Rock ridge to the east, albeit a bit further away and less substantial than Tam.

I just loaded up the new antenna to out there tomorrow, it's longer than my truck!
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post #12400 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulamI View Post
I guess I'm hoping for something from the east or north, or from the Tam transmitter. Even then I have Mt. Burdell to the north and Big Rock ridge to the east, albeit a bit further
Tv does not work like cell phones, ... with towers and boosters everywhere.
No network programming from Mt. Tam .... Except church type of tv channels.... plus all the home shopping channels you want... etc.
You're not going to watch "The Simpsons" from Mt. Tam ....sorry

You need a reasonable line of sight to Sutro tower in San Francisco
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post #12401 of 12412 Old Yesterday, 10:17 PM
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Does to OP have a location (That is his) that has a clear view toward the South?

Then switching to Satellite may be a better option. Either "Dish" which may have local stations or a much bigger dish pulling in the Network and other feeds that are not scrambled.

I know that this is an OTA thread but the techniques for Deep Rural locations may better solve his needs. And Internet needs when OTA is turned off soon.

SHF
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post #12402 of 12412 Old Today, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by wintertime View Post
Hi, Ron. Hey, thanks for the research! By any chance do you have access to Comcast's HD feed of KQED? I need to double check with my friend, but I'm pretty sure that she has an HD cable box.
I finally remembered to take a capture. The KQED SD feed looks fine here. It's just a letterboxed version of the HD feed. Here's some frames.

HD.



SD raw (704x480).



SD resized to 4x3.



Ron

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post #12403 of 12412 Old Today, 12:15 AM
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...when OTA is turned off soon.

SHF
Where'd you come up with that crazy idea? That isn't going to happen for a long, long time.

Larry

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post #12404 of 12412 Old Today, 01:02 AM
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Where'd you come up with that crazy idea? That isn't going to happen for a long, long time.

Larry
My prediction is that over the air television will end up where it started, on VHF channels 2 through 13.

Ron

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post #12405 of 12412 Old Today, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
And Internet needs when OTA is turned off soon.

SHF
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Where'd you come up with that crazy idea? That isn't going to happen for a long, long time.

Larry
Quote:
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My prediction is that over the air television will end up where it started, on VHF channels 2 through 13.

Ron

I doubt OTA is going away anytime soon. We're not even sure what's going to happen with the auction yet. Looks like some stations are going to sell but more are not, leaving some holes in the UHF spectrum. Are random holes going to be useful for broadband? I don't think there's anything in the current law to force stations to move or channel share for repacking.

Maybe broadcast TV will end up on VHF but I suspect that'll be a long time too. And if it does the programming choices will likely be limited. No major broadcasters want to go to low VHF.

I missed an opportunity a couple weeks ago to unload on the FCC as they were in San Andreas holding a meeting about broadband in rural areas. I didn't find out about it until it was too late. I wanted to complain about no useful action on the National Broadband Plan to get high speed internet to rural areas. The only thing that has come out of the NBP is the TV auction which is of no benefit to rural areas at all. If the big companies aren't going to use the UHF frequencies they already have in rural areas then the FCC needs to make those frequencies available to local providers at low or no cost. My local provider is using the unlicensed 2.4 GHz and 5.7 GHz bands for internet access. He's been able to raise the speed to 18mb/s which is not bad but nothing like the urban areas have.

Chuck
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post #12406 of 12412 Old Today, 08:32 AM
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If the big companies aren't going to use the UHF frequencies they already have in rural areas then the FCC needs to make those frequencies available to local providers at low or no cost.
Do you see any signals on the 700 MHz band with your spectrum analyzer? The specific places to look are 739 MHz for AT&T LTE nodes and 751 MHz for Verizon LTE nodes. The LTE signal will be about 9 MHz wide and jumping up and down in amplitude (as the traffic varies).

700 MHz LTE nodes can be pretty small. Here's an AT&T node on a phone pole across the street from my house. This picture was taken from my mailbox.



Ron

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post #12407 of 12412 Old Today, 09:24 AM
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Do you see any signals on the 700 MHz band with your spectrum analyzer? The specific places to look are 739 MHz for AT&T LTE nodes and 751 MHz for Verizon LTE nodes. The LTE signal will be about 9 MHz wide and jumping up and down in amplitude (as the traffic varies).

Yes, I see both and some more. Signals peak towards Angels Camp which is 12 miles from here. I'm sure they wouldn't be this good if I wasn't using my UHF TV antennas.

Attached is 700-900 MHz and 700 to 760 MHz.

Chuck
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Sure enough. KCSO is gone again. I wonder what's going on?

Chuck
Hi Chuck,

I turned off KTVJ and turned back on K03HY-D, because of a request from Betterlife TV. They want me to keep on K03HY-D at Mt. Tam until it moves to the Clay Jones building so that people who have already scanned their TVs will be able to pick up. Please let me know if you see K03HY-D on the air. I left it on the air on Saturday.

Blessings,
Keith
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post #12409 of 12412 Old Today, 10:34 AM
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You may have more Mbps available at your location than you thought, although determining if an AT&T or Verizon data only plan would be competitive to your current ISP seems difficult without actually trying the service. The theoretical downlink rate of 10 MHz LTE is way more than 18 Mbps, but actual throughput could be disappointing.

In your 700 to 760 MHz plot, there's a weaker 5 MHz LTE signal at around 732 MHz. That would be T-Mobile.

Here's an interactive map of cell frequency ownership.

http://specmap.sequence-omega.net/

Ron

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post #12410 of 12412 Old Today, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Hi Chuck,

I turned off KTVJ and turned back on K03HY-D, because of a request from Betterlife TV. They want me to keep on K03HY-D at Mt. Tam until it moves to the Clay Jones building so that people who have already scanned their TVs will be able to pick up. Please let me know if you see K03HY-D on the air. I left it on the air on Saturday.

Blessings,
Keith
Everything was off the air Sunday.
At work now so can't check (Monday)
Ben
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post #12411 of 12412 Unread Today, 12:50 PM
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I first noted that K03HY was back on the air and that KTVJ was off at about 6:40 pm on Saturday. Shortly after midnight Saturday night/Sunday morning, channel 3 was also off the air. I have not seen a signal on either channel since then.

Larry

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post #12412 of 12412 Unread Today, 01:13 PM
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When my HD HomeRun receiver scans for signals it starts at channel 69 and works down to channel 2. When it passes through channels 62 to 58 I get very strong non-TV signals here. Channels 58 to 60, 737 to 749 MHz, show a reading of 100%, channel 61, 755 Mhz, shows 96% and channel 62, 761 MHz, shows 45%. I suspect that they are the AT&T LTE nodes at 739 MHz and Verizon LTE nodes at 751 MHz that Ron mentioned. We have several antennas like what he showed in his photo around our neighborhood.

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