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post #12961 of 12984 Old 08-22-2015, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Thanks for the signal reports for KTVJ.
Keith,

Have you checked the power output on KFTY recently? It is consistently weaker than it was a couple months ago. It was averaging 20dB SNR and now it's right around 16 dB most of the time. I don't see any noise issues on the spectrum analyzer. KTVJ has been a solid 23-28 dB SNR.

Chuck
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post #12962 of 12984 Old 08-22-2015, 10:19 PM
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Do I need a Winegard HD8200U or ?

I am looking to install an antenna and am asking for help as I read the Winegard HD8200U Platinum HD VHF/UHF Antenna, is a good antenna It appear to be kinda large 110 inches long as I recall. I am near the coast my old antenna finally corroded away, it was a Radio Shack (model & size unknown) years ago it finally corroded do to the salt air think I paid 40 bucks for it 20 years ago. I got a decent picture with it but at was located on my deck with a shorter cable run aprox 40 to splitter. I believe I get a strong signal here at my home.

The new installation length of coaxial is aprox

Antenna to splitter is 121 to 130 ft long
1st tv to splitter is 15 -20 ft long
2nd tv to splitter is 20 -25 ft long

I am hoping to not need a preamplifier for my antenna I have a trees about 1/4 away from the antenna and then more trees beyond that not a forest just folks landscaping etc over wise it would be a clear shot to San Francisco and beyond I have included a couple of sites below from TV Fool and Antenna Web with I hope you can pull up to see my situation. I do hope my cable lengths are not to long if I don't get a good signal I will install a preamp. I am hoping to get the antenna up 15' so the smaller it is the easier to lift the support pipe. If I could place a smaller antenna in my attic I could avoid corrosion and then have a shorter cable length Antenna to splitter is 30 to 35 ft long
1st tv to splitter is 15 - 20 ft long
2nd tv to splitter is 20 - 25 ft long

Hope I am making a bit of sence & have included the facts you require. Thanks

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03d9851b4f61

http://antennaweb.org/Stations.aspx?...on=-122.706618

Last edited by abdiver; 08-22-2015 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Clarity
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post #12963 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 04:51 AM
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For your location in Bolinas, CA, the real channel numbers on your tvfool report determine what antenna is needed. If you don't need real channels 2-6, then you can use a smaller antenna.

Going down your list the first VHF-Low channel I see is KTVJ-LD.

The 8200 covers all three TV bands:
VHF-Low, real channels 2-6; the elements need to be very long for these channels
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51

The Winegard HD7694P, 7697, and 7698 cover VHF-High and UHF.

With signals so strong, the 7694 has enough gain for outside. If you want a smaller antenna consider the Antennas Direct C2V that has a double loop for UHF and a dipole ( the "V" of C2V) antenna for VHF-High. The dipole doesn't have as much gain for VHF-High as the 7694, but channels 12 and 7 for NBC and ABC are quite strong.

An attic location has signal loss that is difficult to predict. A metal roof, aluminum thermal barrier, aluminum siding, and stucco will block signals, as will trees and other buildings.

You can try it in the attic at different locations, aimed at 114 degrees magnetic, in a temporary test setup. If there isn't enough signal in the attic for two TVs, you can replace the splitter with a distribution amp like the Channel Master 3412. If there still isn't enough signal in the attic, use a preamp like a Channel Master 7778, Antennas Direct Juice, or RCA TVPRAMP1R at the antenna, and replace the 3412 with a splitter.
Attic options:
1. Ant > coax 35 ft > splitter > 2 TVs
2. Ant > coax 35 ft > 3412 > 2 TVs
3. Ant > preamp > coax 35 ft > power inserter > splitter > 2 TVs
It is possible to use the 3412 or a 3410 in the attic as a preamp and power it remotely.

If one of your TVs has a signal strength indicator, that would help to find out how weak a signal can be and still receive it.

If it doesn't work in the attic, you will need to go outside. For the new installation outside, the signal loss of RG6 coax is about 6 dB per 100 feet for UHF. This would be about 7 or 8 dB for your new coax run, but you have plenty of dB to spare according to your Noise Margin (NM) figures. Try it without a preamp first. Then substitute a 3412 for the splitter. If the signals are still not strong enough for two TVs, you would then need a preamp at the antenna instead of the 3412 inside. The signals outside might be strong enough to overload some preamps, so you would need a preamp resistant to overload like the Antennas Direct Juice.
Outside options:
4. Ant > grounding block (GB) > coax 125 ft > splitter > 2 TVs
5. Ant > (grounding block (GB} > coax 125 ft > 3412 > 2 TVs
6. Ant > preamp > GB > coax > power inserter > splitter > 2 TVs

If the antenna is outside the coax shield should be grounded with a grounding block that is connected to the house electrical system ground with 10 gauge copper wire for electrical safety and to reject interference. For further compliance with the electrical code (NEC), the mast should also be grounded in a similar manner to drain any buildup of static charge, but the system will not survive a direct strike.

You have some strong FM signals that might interfere with TV reception that would require an FM filter. See attachment.
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post #12964 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 09:16 AM
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I agree that the HD7694P outside is the way to go. The only qualifier I have with that is since you live right on the ocean the corrosion factor is high so in this case an attic antenna would mean longer antenna life if it works there. No guarantees.

In regards to low VHF..... K02QX, K03HY and KTVJ are all Better Life Broadcasting Network stations. If you're interested in religious programming you only need to receive one of them. K03HY is not currently on the air but should show up shortly from downtown San Francisco. Each station has 8 sub channels.

Do not use a preamp. The SF stations are too strong.

You don't need an FM filter either. No one I know of in the Bay Area has seen any improvement using one. The FM signals may be strong but so are the TV signals. An FM filter is most useful when you're trying to receive weak high VHF stations in the presence of strong FM stations. This is not your situation. If you use an HD7694P it will attenuate the FM stations since it has no elements for FM thus further reducing the already slim chance of interference.

I'd suggest visiting the San Francisco OTA thread for more local help and information on local stations.
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post #12965 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 10:40 AM
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Threads merged. Always use an existing Local Reception Thread first if it appears active.

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post #12966 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I agree that the HD7694P outside is the way to go. The only qualifier I have with that is since you live right on the ocean the corrosion factor is high so in this case an attic antenna would mean longer antenna life if it works there. No guarantees.

In regards to low VHF..... K02QX, K03HY and KTVJ are all Better Life Broadcasting Network stations. If you're interested in religious programming you only need to receive one of them. K03HY is not currently on the air but should show up shortly from downtown San Francisco. Each station has 8 sub channels.

Do not use a preamp. The SF stations are too strong.

You don't need an FM filter either. No one I know of in the Bay Area has seen any improvement using one. The FM signals may be strong but so are the TV signals. An FM filter is most useful when you're trying to receive weak high VHF stations in the presence of strong FM stations. This is not your situation. If you use an HD7694P it will attenuate the FM stations since it has no elements for FM thus further reducing the already slim chance of interference.

I'd suggest visiting the San Francisco OTA thread for more local help and information on local stations.
I like the idea of a antena in my attic the HD7694P might be a tight fit. But I think doable it appears to either be 78" long or 65" as details varie at different seller websites. Does anyone know the exact size of it?
List of stations I would like to get Below. Thanks again
CH 2 - KTVU

CH 4 - KRON
CH 5 - KPIX

CH 7 - KGO

CH 9 - KQED

CH 11 - KNTV

CH 20 - KOFY

CH 36 - KICU *

CH 44 - KBCW *

CH 60 - KCSM

CH 65 - KKPX
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post #12967 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 03:31 PM
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Sometimes the sellers get the specs wrong. Here is the Winegard spec sheet for the 7694:

http://www.skywalker.com/catalog/Manuals/WIN1051.pdf

(And sometimes even Winegard gets the beamwidths wrong; use the patterns done by the antenna test engineers.)
Quote:
List of stations I would like to get Below. Thanks again

CH 2 - KTVU, real channel 44
CH 4 - KRON, real channel 38
CH 5 - KPIX, real channel 29
CH 7 - KGO, real channel 7; it's weaker than the others---aim ant 123 degrees magnetic
CH 9 - KQED, real channel 30
CH 11 - KNTV, real channel 12
CH 20 - KOFY, real channel 19
CH 36 - KICU *, real channel 36
CH 44 - KBCW *, real channel 45
CH 60 - KCSM, real channel 43
CH 65 - KKPX, real channel 41
You have listed the channels by virtual channel number. It's the real channel number that determines the antenna needed.

7694 OK; it's 65" long.

What does the * mean?

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post #12968 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abdiver View Post
I like the idea of a antena in my attic the HD7694P might be a tight fit. But I think doable it appears to either be 78" long or 65" as details varie at different seller websites. Does anyone know the exact size of it?
List of stations I would like to get Below. Thanks again
CH 2 - KTVU

CH 4 - KRON
CH 5 - KPIX

CH 7 - KGO

CH 9 - KQED

CH 11 - KNTV

CH 20 - KOFY

CH 36 - KICU *

CH 44 - KBCW *

CH 60 - KCSM

CH 65 - KKPX
I don't know what the actual length of the 7694P is. You should have no trouble receiving the stations on your list. They are all extremely strong signals. The only issue with the attic would be a metal roof or insulation blocking the signals. Otherwise it's just a matter of multipath introduced inside the attic. You'll have to try it. You're in a unique location to have LOS to Mt. Sutro, Mt. San Bruno and Fremont and have all three sites in the same direction. No rotor or multiple antennas required.

Chuck
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post #12969 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 04:40 PM
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What do you mean by multipath introduced inside the attic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I don't know what the actual length of the 7694P is. You should have no trouble receiving the stations on your list. They are all extremely strong signals. The only issue with the attic would be a metal roof or insulation blocking the signals. Otherwise it's just a matter of multipath introduced inside the attic. You'll have to try it. You're in a unique location to have LOS to Mt. Sutro, Mt. San Bruno and Fremont and have all three sites in the same direction. No rotor or multiple antennas required.

Chuck
What does " multipath introduced inside the attic" mean

Bill
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post #12970 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 05:05 PM
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If Antenna works in Attic

If antenna works in the Attic as only metal I can think of would be the from the bath exaust fan duct and external outlet vent Cap, I can get about 12 to 15' away from.

Is there a good support for it that I can just order, or should I just build a support Thinking of bolting 1" or 3/4 " threaded flange to a piece of plywood the is laying across the roof trusses and then thread a length of pipe into the flange vertically which I can attach the 7694P attenna to.

Would Antenna need to be grounded?

I think I may also drill into the upper wall studs and run and new Coaxial cable down in wall space and install a new Coax outlet as wife wants to place tv in a new location. If I do this for both tvs I will shorten cable total footage used


Thank you again
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post #12971 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abdiver View Post
What does " multipath introduced inside the attic" mean

Bill
Multipath is reflections of the main signal off of objects that arrive at the at the antenna at different times and interfere with each other. Often these reflected signals appear as noise to the tuner and causes the signal not to decode because the signal-to-noise ratio is too low. Antennas mounted in attics and indoors can suffer from this more than outdoor antennas. Attic and indoor antennas are not line-of-sight locations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by abdiver View Post
If antenna works in the Attic as only metal I can think of would be the from the bath exaust fan duct and external outlet vent Cap, I can get about 12 to 15' away from.

Is there a good support for it that I can just order, or should I just build a support Thinking of bolting 1" or 3/4 " threaded flange to a piece of plywood the is laying across the roof trusses and then thread a length of pipe into the flange vertically which I can attach the 7694P attenna to.

Would Antenna need to be grounded?

I think I may also drill into the upper wall studs and run and new Coaxial cable down in wall space and install a new Coax outlet as wife wants to place tv in a new location. If I do this for both tvs I will shorten cable total footage used


Thank you again
That will work. You don't need to ground an antenna in the attic but you can if you want to. Grounding only protects a system from charges induced from nearby lightning strikes and not direct hits.

Chuck
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post #12972 of 12984 Unread 08-23-2015, 06:25 PM
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Thank you Both for helping me Will Order the HD7694P antenna soon looks like 58 bucks at amazon I will check a few site sponsors first before ordering any suggestions

Thanks again, Well got to close up the chickens if I want fresh eggs tomorrow don't want the varmits to get the hens
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post #12973 of 12984 Unread 08-24-2015, 07:54 AM
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Hi Chuck,

I heard from the engineer Paul for KMMW-LD covering Stockton and the southern part of Sacramento. He wrote that the ScreenSevive transmitter had died and is being replaced.

I am going up to check on KFTY this week

Blessings,
Keith
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post #12974 of 12984 Unread 08-26-2015, 06:48 PM
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Hi. I'm a Winegard Flatwave Amplified user in the East Bay Oakland/Berkeley area. My problem is that I periodically pick up both Fox KTVU RF 44 and KBCW RF 45 - KBCW much more regularly. When they're tuning properly, the signal is relatively great according to my TV's manual tuning application. Unfortunately, I always lose the signal. I've had both perfect and non-existent tuning across the weather spectrum, be it a cloudless and sunny day or overcast and raining night, so I can't correlate to (observable) environmental factors. I have the same problems with KPIX RF 29 and KQED RF 30.

Is it possible that it's a case of adjacent channel interference? If so, do these adjacent channels behave thus for any of you in our area? If anyone has any experience with my particular antenna in this area, I would appreciate anything you could share.
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post #12975 of 12984 Unread 08-26-2015, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frayeddoeuvres View Post
Hi. I'm a Winegard Flatwave Amplified user in the East Bay Oakland/Berkeley area. My problem is that I periodically pick up both Fox KTVU RF 44 and KBCW RF 45 - KBCW much more regularly. When they're tuning properly, the signal is relatively great according to my TV's manual tuning application. Unfortunately, I always lose the signal. I've had both perfect and non-existent tuning across the weather spectrum, be it a cloudless and sunny day or overcast and raining night, so I can't correlate to (observable) environmental factors. I have the same problems with KPIX RF 29 and KQED RF 30.

Is it possible that it's a case of adjacent channel interference? If so, do these adjacent channels behave thus for any of you in our area? If anyone has any experience with my particular antenna in this area, I would appreciate anything you could share.
We live in the "Land Of Multipath" here in the San Francisco Bay Area. It was said long ago that we live in the bottom of a bowl with mountains all around being the rim.

That means for reliable reception a directional antenna is needed.

There is no adjacent channel interference, it is the multipath.

So we can better judge please go to:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

And make a new post with the link to your results. Hopefully that will tell us how close to the hills you are and if you are blocked from Mt. Allison and Monument Pk.

For a complete list of the channels please go to Larry's post where he has links to his complete list of channels.

San Francisco, CA - OTA

SHF

Last edited by SFischer1; 08-26-2015 at 08:24 PM.
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post #12976 of 12984 Unread Yesterday, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frayeddoeuvres View Post
Is it possible that it's a case of adjacent channel interference? If so, do these adjacent channels behave thus for any of you in our area? If anyone has any experience with my particular antenna in this area, I would appreciate anything you could share.

You are probably overloading the preamp and/or TV. Under no circumstances should you be using an amplified antenna in Oakland. I'll wait to see your TV Fool report but I bet the NM column will show numbers >+60dB for all the SF stations. Take a look at my TV Fool Noise Margin article in my link below to see how strong your signals are.

Chuck
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post #12977 of 12984 Unread Yesterday, 08:04 AM
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I think Chuck is correct in his analysis. It was my first thought. You could put a splitter in just before you go into the TV and reduce your signal by about 5db to see if it helps...

Bobby 

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post #12978 of 12984 Unread Yesterday, 10:58 AM
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I think Chuck is correct in his analysis. It was my first thought. You could put a splitter in just before you go into the TV and reduce your signal by about 5db to see if it helps...
This is my current antenna:

http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FL550...flatwave+amped

The amp itself isn't detachable. The only way to make it a non-factor is to disconnect the USB power source. When I have run my TV's scanner with the amp disconnected, I've only ever managed to tune a few channels broadcasting from Mt. Allison - virtual 14, 36, 48 and ion. Nothing else

I repeated the request to disable my inline amp and found similar poor results. However, when I reattached the USB power source, I was now able to perfectly tune most everything: KTVU, KBCW, KQED and KPIX. I wouldn't be surprised if this was some point of contact issue with the amp and the USB cable.
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post #12979 of 12984 Unread Yesterday, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frayeddoeuvres View Post
The amp itself isn't detachable. The only way to make it a non-factor is to disconnect the USB power source. When I have run my TV's scanner with the amp disconnected, I've only ever managed to tune a few channels broadcasting from Mt. Allison - virtual 14, 36, 48 and ion. Nothing else

I repeated the request to disable my inline amp and found similar poor results. However, when I reattached the USB power source, I was now able to perfectly tune most everything: KTVU, KBCW, KQED and KPIX. I wouldn't be surprised if this was some point of contact issue with the amp and the USB cable.

You can't disconnect the power from the amp and expect to receive much of anything. It's still in the signal path and turns into an attenuator. You need a version of the antenna with no amp. As I expected most of the stations in your TV Fool report are in my "Possible Overload" range. The amp just exacerbates the situation.

I don't know exactly what's happening in your situation. It's unlikely the USB isn't making connection. How often have you had USB connectors go bad?

If you continue to have problems I'd get a non-amplified antenna.

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Or, add an attenuator into the mix...

http://www.amazon.com/dB-Attenuator-...ohm+attenuator

Bobby 

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post #12981 of 12984 Unread Yesterday, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frayeddoeuvres View Post
Hi. I'm a Winegard Flatwave Amplified user in the East Bay Oakland/Berkeley area. My problem is that I periodically pick up both Fox KTVU RF 44 and KBCW RF 45 - KBCW much more regularly. When they're tuning properly, the signal is relatively great according to my TV's manual tuning application. Unfortunately, I always lose the signal. I've had both perfect and non-existent tuning across the weather spectrum, be it a cloudless and sunny day or overcast and raining night, so I can't correlate to (observable) environmental factors. I have the same problems with KPIX RF 29 and KQED RF 30.

Is it possible that it's a case of adjacent channel interference? If so, do these adjacent channels behave thus for any of you in our area? If anyone has any experience with my particular antenna in this area, I would appreciate anything you could share.
It's possible, but I have varying responses to those two channels
depending on the TV/receiver, last scan, and phases of the
moon.

Some TVs pick up both without any real problems, some will
only pick up one, some will pick up one for a while, then not
so much. A rescan helps...again, for a while.

If it's multi-path then some receivers are better at sorting it
out than others. But I have similar problems with several
other stations, some only very intermittently on one particular
receiver, and there are NO adjacent channels causing any
possible interference like that (harmonics?).

Of course you need a better, more directional antenna, that's
a given here (I use rabbit ears and a UHF loop myself, and
get about 100 channels on a good day).

--
maxreactance
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post #12982 of 12984 Unread Today, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frayeddoeuvres View Post
This is my current antenna:

http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-FL550...flatwave+amped

The amp itself isn't detachable. The only way to make it a non-factor is to disconnect the USB power source. When I have run my TV's scanner with the amp disconnected, I've only ever managed to tune a few channels broadcasting from Mt. Allison - virtual 14, 36, 48 and ion. Nothing else
I would recommend that you buy yourself an outdoor antenna and connect it up with no amp. Even with strong signals, indoor antennas are unreliable and reception can change by what's going on around it in your home due to reflections. If you have an attic, get a small high VHF/UHF antenna and put it up there. You'll have no reception problems at all.

Something like this from Amazon will work beautifully for you:
http://www.amazon.com/1byone-OUS00-0...rds=tv+antenna

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html
Live reception scans from my HD Home Run receivers: http://www.larrykenney.com/hdhr/
Photos and info on my antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html
Larry Kenney is offline  
post #12983 of 12984 Unread Today, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I would recommend that you buy yourself an outdoor antenna and connect it up with no amp. Even with strong signals, indoor antennas are unreliable and reception can change by what's going on around it in your home due to reflections. If you have an attic, get a small high VHF/UHF antenna and put it up there. You'll have no reception problems at all.

Something like this from Amazon will work beautifully for you:
http://www.amazon.com/1byone-OUS00-0...rds=tv+antenna

Larry
Would that I could. Unfortunately, I'm in an apartment and don't have the level of access needed to mount an antenna. I'm putting my eggs in the overloaded dbm basket and investing in the non-amplified version of this same antenna. Thanks to everyone here for their suggestions
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post #12984 of 12984 Unread Today, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by frayeddoeuvres View Post
Would that I could. Unfortunately, I'm in an apartment and don't have the level of access needed to mount an antenna. I'm putting my eggs in the overloaded dbm basket and investing in the non-amplified version of this same antenna. Thanks to everyone here for their suggestions
If you have not purchased yet, I and others have better table top solutions.

SHF
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