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post #13501 of 13575 Old 01-11-2016, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronj007 View Post
I get NBC - KNTV (11.1) at such a low level that it pixelates, but I get the same content on KSTS (KSTSDT3 11.3) without issue. You don't see 11.1 in my lineup because the signal strength is 45-ish, similar to 11.2 CoziTV, but 11.1 pixelates frequently whereas CoziTV does so very rarely. No other channels that I get pixelate at all. That said, KSTSDT3 comes in at 57 (79%). Why?

Wikipedia shows KNTV (11.1) broadcasts from Mt San Bruno at a height of 376.6m/frequency 12 whereas KSTS broadcasts from the same location at a height of 688m/frequency 49. Larry - on your very informative choisser.com site it shows all three 11.1, 11.2, and 11.3 at the same height. Interestingly, I get 65.1 KKPXDT (and 65.2-6) with a very strong signal from the same tower.

So, my question is, do I receive 11.3 far more clearly simply because of the frequency difference? Or is it the height difference...assuming the information in wikipedia accurately applies to 11.3?

Thanks in advance for the education.
Ron and Chuck explained the reason why 11.3 is at a different level than 11.1 and 11.2. I should show 11.3 as being transmitted from Mt. Allison and 49.3 as being transmitted from Mt. San Bruno. KNTV on Mt. San Bruno transmits 11.1, 11.2 and 49.3. KSTS on Mt. Allison transmits 49.1, 49.2 and 11.3, and my DTV Channel Lists don't show that clearly. I wanted to thank you for pointing out the errors on my lists! I'll update them to correct this.

You asked about KKPX vs KNTV, since both transmit from Mt. San Bruno. KKPX 65 transmits on channel 41 which is UHF, KNTV transmits on channel 12 which is VHF. It sounds like your antenna is not working well for the VHF stations. As Chuck said, you need an antenna that covers VHF if you want to get a good signal from KNTV on Mt. San Bruno and from KGO 7 from Sutro Tower.

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post #13502 of 13575 Old 01-11-2016, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barube View Post
Thanks. I'll give it a try.

On the other hand though. I am still able to pull in stations from San Jose (14, 54, etc) which I think, have an even weaker signal than KCRB and the transmitter is around 90 miles away as compared to 20-25 miles for KCRB. I pull those stations in with no problems at all.
The distance you are from the station is not always an indicator of how well you'll receive a station. A weaker, more distant station which is line of site without any tall trees, hills or mountains in the way will usually come in better than a stronger station that's closer but on the other side of the trees, hills and mountains. You have a nice clear shot to the South Bay... mostly over water... where KRCB is on the other side of hills. It all comes down to those dreaded reflections that they call multipath. Signals with NO multipath are much easier to decode by your tuner.

TV manufacturers need to show TWO readings for signals: strength and quality, so people will know both conditions. A weaker signal with good quality (no multipath) will usually be better than a stronger signal with poor quality.

Larry

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post #13503 of 13575 Old 01-11-2016, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by rdvegas View Post
Has KLFB 22.3 Salinas dropped their Dare To Dream service like many of other other 3ABN stations?

I was finally able to get KLFB scanned back in this morning. KLFB 22.3 has a frozen picture. Here's what's on KLFB:

22.1 - 3ABN
22.2 - 3ABN Latino
22.3 - ???
22.4 - 3ABN

22.3 has the same phone number in the lower right as 22.1. Even though 22.1 and 22.4 are the same program, the image quality on 22.4 is much better than 22.1 which is very jerky and the color is different.

All the sub channels are titled "KLFB-LD" so that's no help.

Chuck
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post #13504 of 13575 Old 01-11-2016, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
The distance you are from the station is not always an indicator of how well you'll receive a station. A weaker, more distant station which is line of site without any tall trees, hills or mountains in the way will usually come in better than a stronger station that's closer but on the other side of the trees, hills and mountains. You have a nice clear shot to the South Bay... mostly over water... where KRCB is on the other side of hills. It all comes down to those dreaded reflections that they call multipath. Signals with NO multipath are much easier to decode by your tuner.

TV manufacturers need to show TWO readings for signals: strength and quality, so people will know both conditions. A weaker signal with good quality (no multipath) will usually be better than a stronger signal with poor quality.

Larry

Thanks Larry.
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post #13505 of 13575 Old 01-11-2016, 05:25 PM
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Hi guys,
I have noticed just for the past month or so that I usually can't watch KNTV 11.1 or 11.2 (haven't tried 11.3) at all. My screen is just black. However, my tuner (CM DVR+) says that the signal strength/quality is 100!
I am in San Jose.
Any ideas?

I did notice something similar last summer with KPIX 5.1 and 5.2, however the difference was that the channel would usually appear after several seconds. I am told it was possibly related to an intentional delay the broadcasters might do so you receive more bandwidth for the current subchannel. However, my current situation with KNTV doesn't seem to be the same since it never appears at all.

Thanks for any help
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post #13506 of 13575 Old 01-11-2016, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dishrag2 View Post
Hi guys,
I have noticed just for the past month or so that I usually can't watch KNTV 11.1 or 11.2 (haven't tried 11.3) at all. My screen is just black. However, my tuner (CM DVR+) says that the signal strength/quality is 100!
I am in San Jose.
Any ideas?

I did notice something similar last summer with KPIX 5.1 and 5.2, however the difference was that the channel would usually appear after several seconds. I am told it was possibly related to an intentional delay the broadcasters might do so you receive more bandwidth for the current subchannel. However, my current situation with KNTV doesn't seem to be the same since it never appears at all.

Thanks for any help
Please go to TVFool and make a new post with a LINK to your report. San Jose is a big city with different areas having different signal problems. (Even just your Zip Code would help.) The TVFool report provides lots of information the experts here desire!

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...51344989f75b87

is my report and my antenna is here:

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...hp?cat=2165469

Decades on 5.2 last summer may have been a testing period, Decades has been rock solid since when they started blitzing "The Fugitive", "Naked City" and other entire series one after another. (I got ALL of those two.)

Quote:
I am told it was possibly related to an intentional delay the broadcasters might do so you receive more bandwidth for the current subchannel.
There is no delay used, the splitting of the bandwidth of the transmitter is either fixed or dynamic allocated.

Should you be interested I can capture two DTV Stations using the two methods and post the TSReader results, but it is very difficult to understand the reports and some stations do not understand all of it. (Part of the current discussion here.)

Your antenna type, notes on splitters to several TV's and so on also would help.

Your tuner appears to be an "Channel Master DVR+" as I found lots of your post there.

Have you done a full scan lately? Some of what you report suggests that one would help.

SHF

Last edited by SFischer1; 01-11-2016 at 10:49 PM.
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post #13507 of 13575 Old 01-12-2016, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Please go to TVFool and make a new post with a LINK to your report. San Jose is a big city with different areas having different signal problems. (Even just your Zip Code would help.) The TVFool report provides lots of information the experts here desire!
Here is the report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5134490c211754

But actually I guess this is a tuner issue. My Samsung TV does show 11. But my Channel Master DVR+ is only showing a black screen, even though it says both the signal and strength are 100% (?!?)
I will post in the DVR+ forum, thanks
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post #13508 of 13575 Old 01-12-2016, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dishrag2 View Post
Here is the report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5134490c211754

But actually I guess this is a tuner issue. My Samsung TV does show 11. But my Channel Master DVR+ is only showing a black screen, even though it says both the signal and strength are 100% (?!?)
I will post in the DVR+ forum, thanks
I think that your problem is a messed up table in the Channel Master DVR+. Follow these steps if you can:

Disconnect the antenna from the Channel Master DVR+ and do a full scan. This should result in no channels!

Reconnect the antenna to the Channel Master DVR+ and do a full scan. This should clear up the problems you are seeing.

The ATSC OTA system was designed with the viewers often doing a full scan.

I found that you are not too far from our 24/7/356 OTA monitoring station. That station uses the same antenna as mine.

http://ruka.org/~toast/atscdata/chart.php?c=7

Good luck!

SHF
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post #13509 of 13575 Old 01-12-2016, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
The distance you are from the station is not always an indicator of how well you'll receive a station. A weaker, more distant station which is line of site without any tall trees, hills or mountains in the way will usually come in better than a stronger station that's closer but on the other side of the trees, hills and mountains. You have a nice clear shot to the South Bay... mostly over water... where KRCB is on the other side of hills. It all comes down to those dreaded reflections that they call multipath. Signals with NO multipath are much easier to decode by your tuner.

TV manufacturers need to show TWO readings for signals: strength and quality, so people will know both conditions. A weaker signal with good quality (no multipath) will usually be better than a stronger signal with poor quality.

Larry
That makes sense. Thanks for the education!
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post #13510 of 13575 Old 01-12-2016, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
The distance you are from the station is not always an indicator of how well you'll receive a station. A weaker, more distant station which is line of site without any tall trees, hills or mountains in the way will usually come in better than a stronger station that's closer but on the other side of the trees, hills and mountains. You have a nice clear shot to the South Bay... mostly over water... where KRCB is on the other side of hills. It all comes down to those dreaded reflections that they call multipath. Signals with NO multipath are much easier to decode by your tuner.

TV manufacturers need to show TWO readings for signals: strength and quality, so people will know both conditions. A weaker signal with good quality (no multipath) will usually be better than a stronger signal with poor quality.

Larry
That makes sense. Thanks for the education!
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post #13511 of 13575 Old 01-12-2016, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I never heard of 1byone yet they have a large number of marginal antennas. I think you have this one:

--Snip--

Where is the antenna mounted? Indoors? Outdoors?

It's likely the antenna is very poor on VHF which is why you're having trouble with KNTV. It's likely you are receiving the KGO translator on channel 35 from Fremont (same place as KSTS) and not KGO on 7 from Sutro so you're actually not receiving any VHF stations at all.

This is all going to come down to needing a better antenna outdoors pointed at the city. "60 miles" is just marketing hype.

I have a TiVo Roamio and 72 is about the strongest any station reads. If you go to the diagnostic screen that shows tuners 0-3 you can read the SNR in dB which is more useful.

KNTV 11.1 and 11.2 are part of the same data stream. If you receive one you'll receive both.

It's always helpful to post a link to your TV Fool report. Make a couple of dummy posts until you can post a link.

Chuck
Yes, that's the one...its outside on the chimney. SNR varies from 16-29 typically. BTW I now get KGODT (7.1) slightly better than The KGOLD (7.1) version...I think KGODT comes from San Francisco....but both signals are very close in quality.
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post #13512 of 13575 Old 01-20-2016, 11:52 PM
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I have notice that KTNC 42-1 - 42-3 is not broadcasting OTA?

Correct, KTNC VC 42 RF 14 is not on the air 1/20/2016 10:45 PM

Perhaps they have not paid their bill for the ether usage for 2016.

VC 38.3 RF 39 is on the air from Sutro with the same Spanish programming.

I will ask on AVS if they made another note to the FCC that they cannot run full power.

SHF


----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Curry
> [HDTV-in-SFbay]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 8:39 PM
> Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] KTNC 42-1 42-3 OTA

> I have notice that KTNC 42-1 - 42-3 is not broadcasting OTA? However
> 42-1 is available on Direct TV.
> Any ideas
>
> --
> Daniel Curry
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post #13513 of 13575 Old 01-21-2016, 01:01 AM
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I haven't heard anything, but did notice that they were off the air. The last time my logging system shows a signal for KTNC is at 10:27 am on January 19.

Maybe their transmitter died. If they don't have a back up they'll have to wait for repairs to get back on the air, and it's a long trip to the top of Mt. Diablo.

Larry

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post #13514 of 13575 Old 01-21-2016, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I haven't heard anything, but did notice that they were off the air. The last time my logging system shows a signal for KTNC is at 10:27 am on January 19.

Maybe their transmitter died. If they don't have a back up they'll have to wait for repairs to get back on the air, and it's a long trip to the top of Mt. Diablo.

Larry

KTNC has had a transmitter failure. I can see their signal on the spectrum analyzer and it's about 30dB weaker than normal. They're running only about 10 watts ERP, too weak to decode here.

Chuck

Edit: KTNC briefly rose a few dB and the TV was able to decode it.
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post #13515 of 13575 Old 01-21-2016, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
KTNC has had a transmitter failure. I can see their signal on the spectrum analyzer and it's about 30dB weaker than normal. They're running only about 10 watts ERP, too weak to decode here.

Chuck

Edit: KTNC briefly rose a few dB and the TV was able to decode it.
Even with my antenna pointed right at Mt. Diablo, I get no signal at all from KTNC here in San Francisco.

However, the stations from Walnut Grove are booming in at 8 to 10 dB SNR stronger than usual. I even got a picture from KTFK 64, which I haven't seen in over a year, with a 17 dB signal. I can see the signals from KCRA 3, KSPX 29 and KTXL 40 but they are below the cliff edge.

KVIE 6 has the strongest signal this morning at 26.5 dB, followed by KMAX 31 at 24, KXTV 10 and KOVR 13 both at 23, and KQCA 58 at 20. KQCA at 20 is about that station's normal level, though, so it's not seeing the increase in strength the others are. Maybe transmitting on channel 46 it's too high up to be affected.

Larry

Edit: I just noticed in my log that I received KNVN 24 from the hills east of Red Bluff, 173.7 miles away, this morning at 5:14 am, so conditions have been good for a while today!

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
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Last edited by Larry Kenney; 01-21-2016 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Update
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post #13516 of 13575 Old 01-21-2016, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
However, the stations from Walnut Grove are booming in at 8 to 10 dB SNR stronger than usual. I even got a picture from KTFK 64, which I haven't seen in over a year, with a 17 dB signal.

Conditions were very good to Mt. San Bruno this morning, Fremont (even KEXT was coming in) and Salinas. All UHF stations from Sutro were out. Those signals looked very bad on the spectrum analyzer.

It always seems strange how conditions to Sutro and Mt. San Bruno are so different yet conditions to Fremont Peak and Mt. Toro (17 miles apart) are usually the same.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 01-21-2016 at 03:20 PM.
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post #13517 of 13575 Old 01-21-2016, 02:23 PM
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I was getting KQCA 58 for a little while today. Haven't seen that station for a long time.

My best signal from Walnut Grove is KMAX 31. Signal strength on my DISH tuner was varying from 65 to 75. 60 or below gets bad breakups or no signal. Now it's holding fairly steady in the low 70's.

KXTV 10 has been pretty consistent today at 21db, now it's at 19db.

I didn't see an increase in the KVIE 6 signal during the surge. Wasn't getting it for a while but now I see a picture at 18db.

The other Walnut Grove station I can receive some of the time, KOVR 13, is mostly below the cliff edge but was viewable earlier.

KTNC 42 holding steady at 1db.
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post #13518 of 13575 Old 01-22-2016, 02:57 AM
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FYI... KTLN 42 is back on the air with their normal signal.

It's interesting to see what these recent conditions did to your reception, Chuck. I know that it's unusual for you to receive the Mt. San Bruno stations better than the ones from Sutro Tower. Did you receive both the VHF and UHF stations... 11, 26, 28 and 65? (Channel 40 is still off the air, but I'm sure KTXL would wipe it out for you anyway.)

OTnA... it's good to see another viewer here in San Francisco receiving the Walnut Grove stations. What are you using for an antenna and what part of the city are you located in? I'm on the hill between the Castro and Noe Valley.

On further investigation, I received KNVN 24, that transmits from the hills east of Red Bluff (licensed to Chico), on two different antennas early on Thursday. There was the 5:14 am logging on my 10 element VHF/XG91 UHF that I mentioned above... which was pointed at 195 degrees, by the way, so the signal was picked up off the back of the antenna.... and I later noticed that it was also logged on the LP345 Log Periodic that's pointed NNW (for KTVJ, KRCB and KTLN) at 8:45 am. Other interesting loggings: I received KVIE 6, KXTV 10, KOVR 13, KMAX 31 and KQCA 58 on my UHF CM4228 that's pointed SW during the afternoon between 2 and 4 pm. I wasn't here to observe it, but the signals must have been really strong to be received off the back of the antenna... especially the two VHF signals!

I haven't seen signals like this in a long time! This past year has been pretty dead for seeing increased signal levels. I hope the past 24 hours is a good sign of what's to come.

Larry

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post #13519 of 13575 Old 01-22-2016, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
FYI... KTLN 42 is back on the air with their normal signal.

It's interesting to see what these recent conditions did to your reception, Chuck. I know that it's unusual for you to receive the Mt. San Bruno stations better than the ones from Sutro Tower. Did you receive both the VHF and UHF stations... 11, 26, 28 and 65? (Channel 40 is still off the air, but I'm sure KTXL would wipe it out for you anyway.)

Yes, all those stations were in. When conditions are good UHF signals come up more than KNTV. KKPX was SNR 31 dB for awhile. No chance here for channel 40. KTXL is far too strong.

Chuck
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post #13520 of 13575 Old 01-22-2016, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
OTnA... it's good to see another viewer here in San Francisco receiving the Walnut Grove stations. What are you using for an antenna and what part of the city are you located in? I'm on the hill between the Castro and Noe Valley.
Larry
I'm using a Y10-7-13 and a Fracarro BLU920F, which has given me better results than an XG91 for Walnut Grove. YMMV.

I live in the Western Addition, below and not too far from Alamo Square Park.
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post #13521 of 13575 Old 01-22-2016, 03:03 PM
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I'm using a Y10-7-13 and a Fracarro BLU920F, which has given me better results than an XG91 for Walnut Grove. YMMV.

I live in the Western Addition, below and not too far from Alamo Square Park.

I'm always puzzled when I read this because the BLU9220F, the HDB91X and the 91XG are essentially the same antenna. The problem with testing antennas though is you need to be able to A/B switch them in real time. Putting one up for awhile and then swapping it out for another is not a very good test since you don't have the same conditions. Any difference in gain between the antennas is just noise compared to the huge swings in signal strength caused by changing atmospheric conditions.

Chuck
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post #13522 of 13575 Old 01-23-2016, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by OTnA View Post
I'm using a Y10-7-13 and a Fracarro BLU920F, which has given me better results than an XG91 for Walnut Grove. YMMV.
I'd never heard of that antenna, so I Googled it. It's made by the same company, Ability, that makes my LP345F Log Periodic. The specs look really good.

Larry

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post #13523 of 13575 Old 01-23-2016, 10:01 AM
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91XG-HDB91X-BLU920F Gain

I dug up the gain curves provided by each manufacturer and placed them on one graph. The claimed gain for the 91XG and the BLU920F are similar. The claimed gain for the HDB91X is 4-5 dB higher. I don't believe it. The antenna would have to be 4 times longer than the other two and it is not. Or else the 91XG and the BLU920F would have to be severely underperforming. I've not seen any evidence of that for the 91XG.

Chuck
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post #13524 of 13575 Old 01-23-2016, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
The claimed gain for the HDB91X is 4-5 dB higher. I don't believe it.
Chuck
It that the "store brand" knockoff for solid signal company ? ... I get emails of those copy-cat models, including the 8 bay bowties that swing in different directions.
Lower priced, but not as durable as the original model.
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post #13525 of 13575 Old 01-23-2016, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
It that the "store brand" knockoff for solid signal company ?

Yes it is.

Chuck
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post #13526 of 13575 Old 01-23-2016, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
It's made by the same company, Ability, that makes my LP345F Log Periodic.
Ability is a US sales agent for Fracarro, an Italian company.

Quote:
The claimed gain for the HDB91X is 4-5 dB higher. I don't believe it.
And no one should look at their gain chart. Here's the specifications as provided by the Chinese company that makes them: http://www.qiaohua.com/products/av-91xu.htm

The text description on their website does match the manufacturer's, the gain chart surely does not. However, SS claims a 60 degree beamwidth which is painfully wrong.

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post #13527 of 13575 Old 01-24-2016, 01:35 AM
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I'd like to see an actual side by side test of the 91XG, the HDB91X, the BLU920F and CM4228. I have the 91XG and CM4228 and both are doing a good job for me. I've found the 91XG and the CM4228 to be about equal for pulling in the stations from Walnut Grove. The big difference is that the CM4228 doesn't have as narrow a beam as the 91XG, but signals received are about equal.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html
Live reception scans from my HD Home Run receivers: http://www.larrykenney.com/hdhr/
Photos and info on my antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html
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post #13528 of 13575 Old 01-24-2016, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
Ability is a US sales agent for Fracarro, an Italian company.

And no one should look at their gain chart. Here's the specifications as provided by the Chinese company that makes them: http://www.qiaohua.com/products/av-91xu.htm

The text description on their website does match the manufacturer's, the gain chart surely does not. However, SS claims a 60 degree beamwidth which is painfully wrong.

So that's where all these antennas are coming from! There are a whole bunch of them. I was hoping to find a larger VHF antenna but I don't see any.

Where did you see 60 degree beamwidth? I saw 30 degrees which is probably about right.

Chuck
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post #13529 of 13575 Old 01-24-2016, 03:13 PM
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Speaking of VHF antennas, I like this one.

http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...fhourglassloop

Scroll down & click on 17 15-RR (15 reflect rods) design build.
Impressive gains in a panel design / hourglass loop element.

Last edited by 888CALLFCC; 01-24-2016 at 03:43 PM. Reason: changed link
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post #13530 of 13575 Old 01-24-2016, 09:36 PM
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The TitanTV listing for Comet 38.4 is 3 hours behind (EST), at least for me. I emailed their contact link over a month ago, and again a week ago. I'm not a big fan of that channel but there was an old Vincent Price movie I wanted to watch but it was already over. Zap2it has it right.
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