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Old 01-06-2017, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by stupac2 View Post
Hello, I think this is the right place to post this. I recently bought a house in Oakland (near the intersection of Fruitvale and MacArthur) and my TV moved from the second floor to the basement, so my old indoor cheapo antenna wasn't cutting it. (I actually had to hang the thing outside through a window to get any reception at all, clearly not a long-term solution.) So I bought an outdoor antenna (an RCA Yagi ANT751R), used the pre-existing coax connection from an old DTV dish to get the signal down, and figured everything would be hunky-dory. Not so much, could only get NBC and ABC of the main four, and maybe a dozen channels total. Antennaweb told me FOX wanted a preamp, so I bought one, and now I get about 60 channels, including CBS, but still no FOX. I only really watch TV for football, so FOX is fairly important, and I can't understand why, if they're all coming from the same spot, I don't get FOX but do get ABC/CBS.

I don't have perfect LOS, my neighbor's roof and some big redwoods are in the way, so is it just that FOX's signal is much more finicky than the other guys'? I can play the "move the antenna a couple mm while the wife checks to see if FOX comes through" game, but if I bought the completely wrong antenna I'd rather not waste my time.

Thanks,
Stuart
So it's been over a year, and I'm still having this problem. I've been able to move the antenna around and get signal, but after a few days or weeks it just disappears. I just spent an hour screwing around with it and can't get anything from FOX, everything else is fine.

Right now I can't move the antenna around in xy at all, just height and rotation, and they're not doing it. Someone mentioned TV Fool, here it is: www (DOT) tvfool (DOT) com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de6a4fc81a69c2 c (DOT's to get around URL restriction).

For reference, the attached picture is what I'm looking at when I'm at ~240 degrees.

Given that the super bowl is on fox this year I'm pretty desperate to fix this, but I'm at a loss about what to do given that the channel keeps disappearing on me.
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Old 01-06-2017, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by stupac2 View Post
... I just spent an hour screwing around with it and can't get anything from FOX, everything else is fine.
...

Given that the super bowl is on fox this year I'm pretty desperate to fix this, but I'm at a loss about what to do given that the channel keeps disappearing on me.
I translated your location to ~ 37.80032 ~ 122.21612 which resulted close to what you posted. Those who wish to use TV Fool Google map

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

that might be helpful.

It appears that you are blocked from KTVU VC 2 RF 48 so that option is unavailable but have you tried that direction?


KTVU VC 2 RF 44 should not be so hard IMHO.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a4fc81a69c2c

The real antenna experts will arrive soon, perhaps just a real UHF antenna and forget about KGO VC 7 RF 7 and KNTV VC 11 RF 12?

SHF
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Old 01-06-2017, 05:58 PM
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San Francisco, CA - OTA

Anyone in the SF area with an over the air antenna capable late generation TiVo like the Roamio, Roamio OTA or Bolt that's interested in beta testing something new for TiVo, head on over to http://www.tivocommunity.com/communi...tomers.547075/ and look for the thread there under the Coffee House forum, started by Their VP of Design, Margret Schmidt.

I wish I lived near SF so I could try myself.
OTnA likes this.

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Old 01-06-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stupac2 View Post
So it's been over a year, and I'm still having this problem. I've been able to move the antenna around and get signal, but after a few days or weeks it just disappears. I just spent an hour screwing around with it and can't get anything from FOX, everything else is fine.

Given that the super bowl is on fox this year I'm pretty desperate to fix this, but I'm at a loss about what to do given that the channel keeps disappearing on me.

I don't remember this from last year. There's no way with those huge signals shown by TV Fool that you should even try a preamp. ABC and NBC are VHF. The fact that you're not receiving much of anything on UHF without a preamp says something is wrong with your setup.

The redwoods might be causing multipath but a preamp will not fix that. If you're still using the "old pre-existing coax" I'd replace that. It could be something is wrong with that cable.

Chuck
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Old 01-06-2017, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post
I wonder if the new new HDHR crop (e.g., the "Connect" model) is even better. Anybody know?
I just installed an HDHR4-US, specifics of the antenna and my location relative to the transmitters are in this post. I don't have experience with other tuners as I don't use the ones in my two TVs, so I don't really have a point of reference. I am picking up 10 dB noise margin stations with the antenna aimed in between transmitters (San Francisco and Fremont) that are 45 degrees apart for me. No rotor in my setup.

According to my calculations and a guesstimate of 7 dB noise figure for the tuner plus a tiny bit of cable loss, I am only getting 1 - 2 dB improvement over the in air noise margin, so the Silicondust tuner must be somewhat decent.

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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Translator wise KGO, KTVU and KNTV show up KPIX's lack of a South Bay Translator.

The Newsrooms all have lots of money to spend to gain more eyes and get even more eyes, where will they spend their money next.

SHF
Usually I get KPIX fine in south San Jose (TVfool here), but it is raining all the way from here to SF right now and it is cutting out, along with some other Mt. Sutro stations. I guess the ultimate setup would be a DB8E pointed at San Francisco, and re-aim the smaller DB4E at Fremont below it on the same mast, each with their own tuner. Kind of hard to justify for the occasional rain fade, but I have only had this setup for a week now. I'll see how it works over the long term.

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Old 01-06-2017, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
It appears that you are blocked from KTVU VC 2 RF 48 so that option is unavailable but have you tried that direction?


KTVU VC 2 RF 44 should not be so hard IMHO.
Yes, this one should be easy at 26 dB noise margin.

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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

The real antenna experts will arrive soon, perhaps just a real UHF antenna and forget about KGO VC 7 RF 7 and KNTV VC 11 RF 12?
Should be able to get KGO on RF 35 repeater at 14 dB noise margin also, although a good antenna, aiming and low cable loss will certainly help.

I would think even with a UHF antenna you could get KNTV VC 11 RF 12 as it has high power and noise margin for you, but I don't have experience receiving high VHF with a UHF antenna, so not so sure about this one.

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Old 01-06-2017, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
...

Usually I get KPIX fine in south San Jose (TVfool here), but it is raining all the way from here to SF right now and it is cutting out, along with some other Mt. Sutro stations. I guess the ultimate setup would be a DB8E pointed at San Francisco, and re-aim the smaller DB4E at Fremont below it on the same mast, each with their own tuner. Kind of hard to justify for the occasional rain fade, but I have only had this setup for a week now. I'll see how it works over the long term.
My comments are more to what the NewsRooms are spending their money on than a real need for a KPIX translator.

A Doppler Radar on a Truck.

It's just a more glorified weather mobile van that one of the stations is hyping about. Not really worth anything but bragging rights for the weather department. There is a lot of that going around as the February sweeps will soon be on us.

KGO's radar, the first, was a real improvement as the north bay was lacking with all the NWS radars so far away and lots of mountains in the way.

SHF
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Old 01-06-2017, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post

Usually I get KPIX fine in south San Jose (TVfool here), but it is raining all the way from here to SF right now and it is cutting out, along with some other Mt. Sutro stations. I guess the ultimate setup would be a DB8E pointed at San Francisco, and re-aim the smaller DB4E at Fremont below it on the same mast, each with their own tuner. Kind of hard to justify for the occasional rain fade, but I have only had this setup for a week now. I'll see how it works over the long term.
We are out in Evergreen and have never had any weather related issues. Our antenna is 30'AGL on the roof so we'll see what happens this weekend. KPIX has been fine all night.
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Old 01-06-2017, 10:10 PM
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Yes, this one should be easy at 26 dB noise margin.

Should be able to get KGO on RF 35 repeater at 14 dB noise margin also, although a good antenna, aiming and low cable loss will certainly help.

I would think even with a UHF antenna you could get KNTV VC 11 RF 12 as it has high power and noise margin for you, but I don't have experience receiving high VHF with a UHF antenna, so not so sure about this one.
I am unsure if you are commenting about the OP problems, his TVFool has RF 48 way down at the bottom and checking the path to Monument Pk using TV Fool Google map it looks like some hills are in the path.

I thought about his cable run but Dish TV is so new that unless there is something left over from that usage it should not be a problem.

The photo indicates a evergreen tree. I lost KTVU VC 2 RF 44 from Sutro due to wet leaves and I switched to KTVU VC 2 RF 48 on a different antenna.

The wet leaves have dropped and I am about to switch back to KTVU VC 2 RF 44 this week.

If the SuperBowl occurs when the evergreen leaves are wet, there may be no solution but to go to a bar.

SHF
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:22 PM
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We are out in Evergreen and have never had any weather related issues. Our antenna is 30'AGL on the roof so we'll see what happens this weekend. KPIX has been fine all night.
I am in the shadow of Communication Hill, if you look at my TVfool report it will be considerably different from yours despite being a couple miles away.

Lifespeed

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Old 01-06-2017, 11:26 PM
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I am unsure if you are commenting about the OP problems, his TVFool has RF 48 way down at the bottom and checking the path to Monument Pk using TV Fool Google map it looks like some hills are in the path.

I thought about his cable run but Dish TV is so new that unless there is something left over from that usage it should not be a problem.

The photo indicates a evergreen tree. I lost KTVU VC 2 RF 44 from Sutro due to wet leaves and I switched to KTVU VC 2 RF 48 on a different antenna.
I missed the evergreen tree, I'm not sure how much of an effect that has. The hills alone, as accounted for in TVfool (I know it is not a perfect prediction), I think would still allow reception.

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Old 01-07-2017, 12:55 AM
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So it's been over a year, and I'm still having this problem. I've been able to move the antenna around and get signal, but after a few days or weeks it just disappears. I just spent an hour screwing around with it and can't get anything from FOX, everything else is fine.
Looking at the signal levels in your TVFool listing, you should have no trouble receiving any of the stations in the green area of the report, and that's just about every one in the Bay Area. Something has to be wrong with either your antenna, your coax cable, a connector somewhere along the line or something like that. I agree with what Chuck said in his response a few blocks up. That antenna you have should be plenty good enough to get all of the stations, so the first thing I'd do is replace the coax - from the antenna to the TV - and get rid of that old stuff that you're reusing. I bet that's where your problem is. You should have very strong signals, and they should not cut out no matter what the weather or the surrounding area is like -- and that includes KTVU 2 on channel 44.

Larry

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Old 01-07-2017, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
Usually I get KPIX fine in south San Jose (TVfool here), but it is raining all the way from here to SF right now and it is cutting out, along with some other Mt. Sutro stations. I guess the ultimate setup would be a DB8E pointed at San Francisco, and re-aim the smaller DB4E at Fremont below it on the same mast, each with their own tuner. Kind of hard to justify for the occasional rain fade, but I have only had this setup for a week now. I'll see how it works over the long term.

Rain has no affect on UHF TV signals. This idea comes from rain fade on satellite TV. In order for rain to significantly attenuate the signal the raindrops need to be about 1/4 wave of the frequency in diameter. For satellite TV at 12 GHz that's about 1/4", fairly common in heavy rain. At 700 MHz (channel 51) the required raindrop size increases to over 4". Not going to happen.

Sometimes rain can change the attenuation of the signal passing through a tree and that's what you could be seeing. Just another reason to not point an antenna at trees.

As a side note, I've recently set up a cell phone booster to get reliable coverage in my house. Verizon is using the 850 MHz band here and the transmitter is on about 880 MHz. It's about 11 miles LOS. It's raining right now and there are no issues with it.

Chuck
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Old 01-07-2017, 08:38 AM
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Verizon is using the 850 MHz band here and the transmitter is on about 880 MHz. It's about 11 miles LOS.
That would be for the 1x (voice) and 3G services. $G/LTE is usually around 735-750 MHz, just to get in the ballpark. If those signals are present, you should easily see them with your spectrum analyzer.

FWIW, those 91XGs would probably make a gonzo cellular repeater antenna array! They really rock up in the 700-900 MHz range.
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Old 01-07-2017, 01:29 PM
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Looking at the signal levels in your TVFool listing, you should have no trouble receiving any of the stations in the green area of the report, and that's just about every one in the Bay Area. Something has to be wrong with either your antenna, your coax cable, a connector somewhere along the line or something like that. I agree with what Chuck said in his response a few blocks up. That antenna you have should be plenty good enough to get all of the stations, so the first thing I'd do is replace the coax - from the antenna to the TV - and get rid of that old stuff that you're reusing. I bet that's where your problem is. You should have very strong signals, and they should not cut out no matter what the weather or the surrounding area is like -- and that includes KTVU 2 on channel 44.

Larry
I replaced the whole length of coax this morning using one long piece of cable and everything's coming through crystal clear. Thanks guys! Not sure why I didn't think of that on my own.
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Old 01-07-2017, 05:21 PM
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I replaced the whole length of coax this morning using one long piece of cable and everything's coming through crystal clear. Thanks guys! Not sure why I didn't think of that on my own.
Excellent news!

Bobby 

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Old 01-08-2017, 01:44 AM
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I replaced the whole length of coax this morning using one long piece of cable and everything's coming through crystal clear. Thanks guys! Not sure why I didn't think of that on my own.
Great! Glad to help! Enjoy your football now uninterrupted.

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Old 01-08-2017, 02:45 AM
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Rain has no affect on UHF TV signals. This idea comes from rain fade on satellite TV. In order for rain to significantly attenuate the signal the raindrops need to be about 1/4 wave of the frequency in diameter. For satellite TV at 12 GHz that's about 1/4", fairly common in heavy rain. At 700 MHz (channel 51) the required raindrop size increases to over 4". Not going to happen.

Sometimes rain can change the attenuation of the signal passing through a tree and that's what you could be seeing. Just another reason to not point an antenna at trees.

As a side note, I've recently set up a cell phone booster to get reliable coverage in my house. Verizon is using the 850 MHz band here and the transmitter is on about 880 MHz. It's about 11 miles LOS. It's raining right now and there are no issues with it.

Chuck
You are right, it is not rain fade in the sense a microwave signal experiences. However, I am behind a small hill with some stations low in power and noise margin. I think changes in environmental conditions affect multipath and my reception somewhat.
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Old 01-08-2017, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
That would be for the 1x (voice) and 3G services. $G/LTE is usually around 735-750 MHz, just to get in the ballpark. If those signals are present, you should easily see them with your spectrum analyzer.

FWIW, those 91XGs would probably make a gonzo cellular repeater antenna array! They really rock up in the 700-900 MHz range.

This really OT but I'll make one post about it.

Yes, they're great on 700-800 MHz but drop off above that. The first attached image shows the LTE signals on my 91XGs on the tower. There appears to be cell sites in Angles Camp and Sonora, 12 miles and 18 miles respectively. The second images shows the signals from my garage on the simple LPDA that came with the booster, with and without a preamp.

Chuck
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Old 01-08-2017, 10:34 AM
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I replaced the whole length of coax this morning using one long piece of cable and everything's coming through crystal clear. Thanks guys! Not sure why I didn't think of that on my own.
Apparently I spoke too soon. Everything looked good initially, but this morning CBS is stuttering quite frequently and flipping to FOX I've already seen the "no signal" message, though it quickly came back. This is playing out just like every other time I've made some major change: it works for a while then stops. I disconnected the preamp, should I put it back? Could it be the connection at the antenna? NBC came in flawlessly last night, as it always has, so I don't know what to do. According to TV Fool CBS should be my strongest channel, and FOX is right up there both over 10 dB above NBC. Should I try to move where the antenna is mounted? That's going to be challenging but if this is going to happen so consistently where it's mounted I can figure it out.
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:16 AM
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Apparently I spoke too soon. Everything looked good initially, but this morning CBS is stuttering quite frequently and flipping to FOX I've already seen the "no signal" message, though it quickly came back. This is playing out just like every other time I've made some major change: it works for a while then stops. I disconnected the preamp, should I put it back? Could it be the connection at the antenna? NBC came in flawlessly last night, as it always has, so I don't know what to do. According to TV Fool CBS should be my strongest channel, and FOX is right up there both over 10 dB above NBC. Should I try to move where the antenna is mounted? That's going to be challenging but if this is going to happen so consistently where it's mounted I can figure it out.

If KNTV and KGO are coming in with no problems but UHF stations are having a problem then there is a problem with the UHF portion of your antenna.

Chuck
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:38 AM
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If KNTV and KGO are coming in with no problems but UHF stations are having a problem then there is a problem with the UHF portion of your antenna.

Chuck
Is that something I could try to fix myself or should I just get a new antenna?
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:44 AM
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If KNTV and KGO are coming in with no problems but UHF stations are having a problem then there is a problem with the UHF portion of your antenna.

Chuck
Over a year ago I wanted to watch the Noon news.

Both KPIX VC 5 RF 29 and KTVU VC 2 RF 44 were unwatchable.

I looked out the window and the big trees in the path to Sutro were moving wildly back and forth.

http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...96&cat=2165469

I just looked out my window and the trees are moving a lot but I am having no problem with KPIX VC 5 RF 29 watching the first NFL game.

The difference, now there are no leaves on the trees. EDIT: Rain Rate is .16 / Hour on my personal weather station. No Wind gauge allowed! EDIT: 1:20 PM switching to KTVU VC 2 RF 44. Wind is much stronger and I am seeing some problems on RF 44. South 16, Guest 36!

http://w1.weather.gov/obhistory/KNUQ.html

With Evergreen trees the needles are on the entire year.

So stupac2, when you are having problems check if the evergreen trees are moving.

All you can do is hope for better weather during the Superbowl.

If the antenna was dropped and damaged replacing it is the only option.

SHF

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Old 01-08-2017, 01:26 PM
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So stupac2, when you are having problems check if the evergreen trees are moving.

All you can do is hope for better weather during the Superbowl.

If the antenna was dropped and damaged replacing it is the only option.

SHF
I haven't noticed any pattern in terms of it being worse when it's windier out, though it's certainly windier today than it was yesterday. It's possible that the antenna was dropped during shipping, but it certainly wasn't after it had been assembled.
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Old 01-08-2017, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by stupac2 View Post
I haven't noticed any pattern in terms of it being worse when it's windier out, though it's certainly windier today than it was yesterday. It's possible that the antenna was dropped during shipping, but it certainly wasn't after it had been assembled.

It certainly could be multipath caused by trees as SFischer1 suggested. It's not clear to me if you're having trouble with all UHF or just a couple of stations.

You should check the stations when the wind is calm. Even a slight breeze can make signals fluctuate if it's trees. When calm the stations should be stable, whether that means you're receiving them or not. If your TV has a diagnostic screen the SNR or Signal Quality should not jump around.

Chuck
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Old 01-08-2017, 01:50 PM
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Anyone in the SF area with an over the air antenna capable late generation TiVo like the Roamio, Roamio OTA or Bolt that's interested in beta testing something new for TiVo, head on over to www.tivocommunityforum.com and look for the thread there under the Coffee House forum, started by Their VP of Design, Margret Schmidt.

I wish I lived near SF so I could try myself.
Hi Dave,

Here is the correct link: http://www.tivocommunity.com/communi...tomers.547075/
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Old 01-08-2017, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
It certainly could be multipath caused by trees as SFischer1 suggested. It's not clear to me if you're having trouble with all UHF or just a couple of stations.

You should check the stations when the wind is calm. Even a slight breeze can make signals fluctuate if it's trees. When calm the stations should be stable, whether that means you're receiving them or not. If your TV has a diagnostic screen the SNR or Signal Quality should not jump around.

Chuck
I've definitely had problems on calm days. I basically haven't been able to get FOX consistently at all since August (I basically only watch TV for football so I don't know if it was bad previously). Adding this wire is better in that it comes in a bit instead of being complete garbage, so that's something.

It seems like there are two different options, since I can't cut down my neighbor's trees:

1) Move the antenna.
2) Get a new antenna.

If I were to get a new antenna, is there anything in particular I should look for?
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Old 01-08-2017, 04:22 PM
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I've definitely had problems on calm days. I basically haven't been able to get FOX consistently at all since August (I basically only watch TV for football so I don't know if it was bad previously). Adding this wire is better in that it comes in a bit instead of being complete garbage, so that's something.

It seems like there are two different options, since I can't cut down my neighbor's trees:

1) Move the antenna.
2) Get a new antenna.

If I were to get a new antenna, is there anything in particular I should look for?

The next antenna up would be the Winegard HD7694P. Even with a tree it's hard for me to imagine why you're not getting stations only 13 miles away. I have a channel 18 that is 14 miles away and I can receive it with a hill in the way and looking through a sea of vegetation.

This doesn't make any sense and when something like this doesn't make sense it's because we're missing some critical piece of information.

Does your TV have a diagnostic screen that has information like SNR in dB or Signal Quality or even Signal Strength? A single meter, no matter how it's labeled, is Signal Quality. We need more information. I'd really like to see numbers for all the Sutro UHF stations.

Chuck
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Old 01-08-2017, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
...

Does your TV have a diagnostic screen that has information like SNR in dB or Signal Quality or even Signal Strength? A single meter, no matter how it's labeled, is Signal Quality. We need more information. I'd really like to see numbers for all the Sutro UHF stations.

Chuck
I also wonder if he is playing the game of "DTV Antenna Battleship". That is, pointing the antenna and asking a tuner if it sees anything. A "Yes" or "No" answer is a game that usually is impossible to win. If a full scan is needed then throw a brick at the DTV.

When I needed to get KTVU VC 2 RF 48 I connected the Terk HDTVa antenna to my old HDHomeRun tuner and displayed the live "Signal Strength", "Signal Quality" and "Symbol Quality". Live means as I moved the antenna the numbers changed. I could also put the Video and Audio for RF 48 on the screen at the same time but I did not need to. Easy when the HDTV and the antenna are the same room. Otherwise two persons are needed, one watching the numbers and the other moving the antenna. (Two walkie talkie needed.)

If with your "new" cable you still have problems with no wind blowing and moving the antenna only height and rotation possible then is it puzzling. Usually the advise given is to move your antenna up, down, forward, back, left or right ~ 2 feet. In the case for RF 44 only ~ six inches is needed. Perhaps a "T" board could be added at the top to move the antenna left or right. (Try only if it is safe!)

I can get all the numbers for all channels seen with just a click on a bat file. (See a later post.)

I also thought about a suggestion of getting a new DTV as I thought my best tuner was in my new Sony HDTV made ~ June 2016. Switching three times showed it was worse than the Fusion5 RT Gold tuner I was using with defective software but great time-shifting and displaying only good frames. The picture is jumpy but the audio is almost perfect.

SHF


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Last edited by SFischer1; 01-08-2017 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 01-08-2017, 06:23 PM
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January 2017 full Scans

Hi,

Attached are the full scans of what my main CM4228HD antenna pointed at Sutro and the Terk HDTVa on top of a bookshelf on the second floor currently see.



Scan-HDHR_10406FE2_T1.BAT
Code:
 "C:\\Program Files\\Silicondust\\HDHomeRun\\hdhomerun_config.exe" 10406FE2 scan /tuner1 G:\\HDTV\\10406FE2_T1.txt
Scan-HDHR_101A7308_T1.BAT
Code:
"C:\\Program Files\\Silicondust\\HDHomeRun\\hdhomerun_config.exe" 101A7308 scan /tuner1 G:\\HDTV\\101A7308_T1.txt
SHF
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File Type: zip January_2017.zip (3.0 KB, 5 views)
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