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post #14491 of 14579 Old 01-22-2017, 11:46 AM
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I just checked KTVU and the SNR is 21 dB which is excellent with my antennas partially cranked down because of the high winds. I'm 110 miles from Sutro.

Anyone in Berkeley should have 100% on every station.

Chuck
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post #14492 of 14579 Old 01-22-2017, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandude View Post
I'm getting a very solid signal from ch 2 right now up here in Santa Rosa with an attic antenna. No noise or breakup.
Sorry I don't have any means to measure signal levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muse View Post
I'm getting from 0% to 9% signal for Channel 2 KTVU, Fox Bay Area this morning from my rooftop antenna (I'm in Berkeley), not enough to record an HD program. Is it them or me? My other "favorite" stations all are ~75% or higher (i.e. 4, 5, 7, 9, 11).

I have two rooftop antennas, so I switched cables to my MyHD-130 HDTV card to my other antenna, but have the same behavior, so I'm pretty sure it isn't an antenna or cable problem.

Anyone else having problems this morning with Channel 2, KTVU?

...
Look out your windows toward Sutro. When I have problems with KTVU VC 2 RF 44 the trees are moving.

Looking at Toast0's chart for KTVU VC 2 RF 44 it looks good so the problems must be closer to you.

Could you unknowingly be receiving KTVU VC 2 RF 48, toast0’s chart shows problems with it’s reception.

(It is not a true translator as it is fed directly and does not depend on KTVU VC 2 RF 44 signal from Sutro.

SHF

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post #14493 of 14579 Old 01-27-2017, 11:56 PM
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My HDHR42US has arrived!

I received my new HDHR4 Home Run receiver today. I was surprised at how small it is compared to the older models. I quickly hooked it up and attached my VHF/UHF beam combination to it. The unit was quickly added to the Home Run program and everything worked right away.

Now for the results of my tests: I immediately noticed that the SQ-Signal Quality was higher on every station. Many that have been in the 70's on my old receiver are now in the 90's! While the SQ is better, the SS-Signal Strength remains at about the same level as on the older receiver. The new receiver is giving me better results. Several of the borderline stations that were sometimes there and sometimes not there seem to now always be there, so the tuner is definitely better. While I have yet to compare it to my new Sony TV, I know its going to do okay when I do. I'm very pleased with my tiny little box!

Larry
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post #14494 of 14579 Old 01-28-2017, 03:24 PM
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The final channel assignments for the new repack have been decided. According to Trip "The reverse auction determined who is going off, who is moving to VHF, and who is repacked. The final channel assignments were finished yesterday. The law authorizing the auction required confidentiality of that information until the auction is over, which it is not, so that information has not yet been released."

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post #14495 of 14579 Old 01-28-2017, 09:14 PM
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If the Extended Auction goes to 52 rounds like Stages 1-4 then it'll be about Feb. 10 before that finishes. Then it'll be a couple of weeks before the Assignment phase of the auction starts according to the FCC info. That could mean the beginning of March. Should the Assignment phase also takes 52 rounds then you're looking at the end of March before we find out. That would mean the auction took a full year!

I don't see why the repacking information can't be released after the Extended Auction finishes. The Assignment phase is just about the auction winners paying extra for frequencies they want the most. Who's going off and where the rest are moving to is already known and isn't going to change with more bidding.

Chuck
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post #14496 of 14579 Old 01-28-2017, 09:53 PM
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Talking The Circus is shutting down after 146 years, what will be the OTA year count?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
...

Who's going off and where the rest are moving to is already known and isn't going to change with more bidding.

Chuck
What , everything is frozen in place,

no station that was sold cannot come back as a sub stream of a station that did not. No requests for swapping RF channels between stations will be permitted. What about two stations deciding to swap mountain tops. The stations are on the air to sell our eyeballs and will take steps to improve their bottom line. We may even see some stations come back from the dead. Or stations that sell quickly if suddenly they get a huge offer.

And what about the sub-streams, they had no part of the auction, will all of then just decide to stay off the air.
There are lots of places that did not have a particular sub stream that may gain one.

And where does the decision for ATSC 3.0 stand. The last I heard was that the FCC had made a request for comments.

We will need a spreadsheet to keep track. (Maybe Larry's list can be converted to one, a 3D at that.)

I think I used almost of them. Opps, there are [more].

SHF

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post #14497 of 14579 Old 01-28-2017, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
If the Extended Auction goes to 52 rounds...
I may be wrong, but I don't believe there's a limit to the number of rounds.

http://maps.spectrumgateway.com/ince...-4-demand.html

http://www.spectrumgateway.com/600-mhz-spectrum

Ron

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post #14498 of 14579 Old 01-28-2017, 11:12 PM
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I'm not sure what all you're talking about above but the reverse auction is complete. The broadcasters part is done. All that's left is for the wireless companies to complete bidding for some markets and then bid for the exact channel pairs they've already won. What sub channels stay and which go will be sorted out by the remaining stations.

ATSC 3.0 is another issue. I'll bet that goes nowhere until the repack is complete sometime in 2020.

Chuck
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post #14499 of 14579 Old 01-28-2017, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
...
ATSC 3.0 is another issue. I'll bet that goes nowhere until the repack is complete sometime in 2020.

Chuck
Quote:
Technology doesn’t stand still; instead, it evolves at an ever-growing pace. This is especially true in the area of bringing media to viewers.
ATSC 3.0: Where We Stand (January 8, 2017)
http://atsc.org/newsletter/atsc-3-0-where-we-stand/

It all depends on when the FCC mandate for ATSC 3.0 on tuners rule is published.

The Analog to Digital conversion was pressed by the people that wanted HD at any cost. The ATSC 3.0 conversion may be driven by the "4K" people who want it at any cost. They are the people with the money for new sets and do not care if people are left behind.

SHF
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post #14500 of 14579 Old 01-29-2017, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I'm not sure what all you're talking about above but the reverse auction is complete. The broadcasters part is done. All that's left is for the wireless companies to complete bidding for some markets and then bid for the exact channel pairs they've already won.
Congress passed a law saying the FCC must maintain the privacy of who was bought in the auction until the auction is "complete". Until the forward side is complete, the auction overall is not "complete". And sharing the channel assignments of the stations who are left would tell you through omission who was bought to go off the air or through inclusion on VHF who was bought to go to VHF.

Quote:
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ATSC 3.0 is another issue. I'll bet that goes nowhere until the repack is complete sometime in 2020.

Chuck
I don't gamble, but that's a bad bet. Now-Chairman Pai has been recorded in the press talking about how quickly he wants to move ATSC 3.0.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #14501 of 14579 Old 01-29-2017, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Congress passed a law saying the FCC must maintain the privacy of who was bought in the auction until the auction is "complete". Until the forward side is complete, the auction overall is not "complete". And sharing the channel assignments of the stations who are left would tell you through omission who was bought to go off the air or through inclusion on VHF who was bought to go to VHF.

I understand about the law and that we're stuck with it but I'm just saying it doesn't make much sense. I don't see how publishing the results of the reverse auction could impact who wins licenses in what markets or which frequencies the winners get.


Quote:
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I don't gamble, but that's a bad bet. Now-Chairman Pai has been recorded in the press talking about how quickly he wants to move ATSC 3.0.

- Trip
Well 2020 isn't very far off and I suppose we could see the first ATSC 3.0 broadcasts show up sooner if they can find channels to put the transmitters on. The problem is all new receivers for consumers. I don't know how that might work.

I'm not against ATSC 3.0 because I see all the good things it could bring but I'm skeptical as to how fast it can happen.

Chuck
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post #14502 of 14579 Old 01-29-2017, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post
I may be wrong, but I don't believe there's a limit to the number of rounds.

http://maps.spectrumgateway.com/ince...-4-demand.html

http://www.spectrumgateway.com/600-mhz-spectrum

Ron

Thanks for the links. This is much easier to understand than trying to go through that long table published by the FCC!

Chuck
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post #14503 of 14579 Old 01-29-2017, 03:39 PM
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There is an ATSC 3.0 station already on the air in Raleigh, NC, testing it out, and so far reports have been very favorable. As Chuck said, it's going to be the receivers that will be the hold up in this process.

Larry

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post #14504 of 14579 Old 01-30-2017, 01:51 PM
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Here are a couple of new articles about the frequency auction:

FCC Clarifies Auction Assignment Phase:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/news/000...t-phase/280219

Skeptic's View of Auction Success:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/opinions...cs-view/280205

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post #14505 of 14579 Old 01-30-2017, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post
I may be wrong, but I don't believe there's a limit to the number of rounds.

I was looking at the 700MHz auction summary and there was 261 rounds over 38 days so the current auction may go on for some time. Your link that contains the excess demand in dollars is a good one to watch. It hasn't budged for awhile now.

I think I saw that there were 101 winning bidders in the auction. I couldn't imagine that there were that many wireless companies in the country. There aren't. It looks like a lot of the companies just bid to win licenses in small geographic areas and then lease their licenses to the major carriers. It makes it very confusing to try to figure out which carriers you have in your area. I knew Verizon was using the PCS band around my area and I wanted to know what frequency block they were using. I'm constructing a simple downconverter to view the 1900MHz PCS band on my spectrum analyzer. I want to use it to properly point my antenna. After much snooping around the FCC ULS I finally discovered that the Sacramento Valley Limited Partnership has a bunch of licenses for the Block E PCS band (1965-1970 MHz downlink) and they are leasing them to Verizon.

It's not at all clear to me what the difference is between the major carriers owning all the licenses across the country and owning some of the licenses and leasing the rest. This is why there are so many bidders in the 600MHz auction. They're biding by Partial Economic Area (PEA) as shown here:

https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/at...A-14-759A4.pdf

You can see why this can drag on for hundreds of rounds.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 01-30-2017 at 10:27 PM.
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post #14506 of 14579 Old 01-30-2017, 10:54 PM
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It's funny you should mention the PCS band. I was just looking at it the other day.

Here's another link you may find useful.

http://specmap.sequence-omega.net/

Down here in Silicon Valley, there's a big 20 MHz LTE signal in the PCS band. The "hole" in the middle is just multipath, I was only using a little wide band antenna inside. I also neglected to see which carrier it's from, but I do have a tool that extracts it from the signal.


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post #14507 of 14579 Old 01-30-2017, 11:03 PM
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Here's the wide band antenna. It's a Vivaldi tapered slot antenna on a printed circuit board. The designer did get a little carried away with the graphics.

http://rfspace.com/RFSPACE/Antennas.html

https://www.amazon.com/Antenna-600-6.../dp/B0141KA6LM



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post #14508 of 14579 Old 01-31-2017, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post
It's funny you should mention the PCS band. I was just looking at it the other day.

Here's another link you may find useful.

http://specmap.sequence-omega.net/

Down here in Silicon Valley, there's a big 20 MHz LTE signal in the PCS band. The "hole" in the middle is just multipath, I was only using a little wide band antenna inside. I also neglected to see which carrier it's from, but I do have a tool that extracts it from the signal.

Thanks! That's very helpful. I don't suppose you have a link that locates cell sites by carrier? I've been trying to figure out what kind of a path I have to some of the signals I see on the spectrum analyzer. Mostly I've been met with frustration. I have no real close by sites. They all appear to be in the 6-20 mile range so I need an outdoor antenna to get a solid signal.

Below is my first experiment with my old GOES WEFAX dish which worked very well. The second image is what I ended up and is only a couple of dB weaker.

Chuck
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post #14509 of 14579 Old 01-31-2017, 09:54 AM
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Thanks! That's very helpful. I don't suppose you have a link that locates cell sites by carrier?
Unfortunately, that data is non-public. In some places, it's pretty easy to dig up from building permits and other public records, but in others it's much more challenging.

- Trip

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post #14510 of 14579 Old 01-31-2017, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Unfortunately, that data is non-public. In some places, it's pretty easy to dig up from building permits and other public records, but in others it's much more challenging.

- Trip
If you have the approximate location then:

Antenna Structure Registration
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/AsrS...ionSea rch.jsp

and then use Search by Tower Location.

I used that to find the tower above my childhood home and then was able to find the carrier which is listed for the tower, a non big name carrier. There appears to be just one cell tower covering a vast area (Many Miles) compared with where I live which is a forest of cells.

SHF
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post #14511 of 14579 Old 01-31-2017, 07:15 PM
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If you have the approximate location then:

Antenna Structure Registration
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/AsrS...ionSea rch.jsp

and then use Search by Tower Location.

I used that to find the tower above my childhood home and then was able to find the carrier which is listed for the tower, a non big name carrier. There appears to be just one cell tower covering a vast area (Many Miles) compared with where I live which is a forest of cells.

SHF
The ASR database just tells you who owns the tower, not who's on it. It also only contains towers taller than 200 feet (many are built to be 199 feet as a result), towers in the glide-slope path of an airport, or a handful of towers otherwise required by the FAA to register.

Additionally, most towers are owned by American Tower, Crown Castle, or SBA, which are tower companies that lease space to the cell phone carriers, usually more than one per tower. Relatively few towers are owned by the carriers themselves these days.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #14512 of 14579 Old 01-31-2017, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
The ASR database just tells you who owns the tower, not who's on it. It also only contains towers taller than 200 feet (many are built to be 199 feet as a result), towers in the glide-slope path of an airport, or a handful of towers otherwise required by the FAA to register.

Additionally, most towers are owned by American Tower, Crown Castle, or SBA, which are tower companies that lease space to the cell phone carriers, usually more than one per tower. Relatively few towers are owned by the carriers themselves these days.

- Trip
I ended up with a name that implied cell usage. (My question) Now there are TWO, the second is half the height (45.7) Note: this is the highest point around.

Registration Number 1064569
Status Constructed
File Number A1000917
Owner Name UNITED STATES CELLULAR CORPORATION
Latitude/Longitude Structure 42-51-23.0N 089-32-40.0W
City/State BELLEVILLE, WI Overall Height Above Ground (AGL) 82.3

I remember a method to find out what users were on a tower was shown when we were looking to see if GOD's TV was on the old KNTV tower, NOT!

Mid term memory is slow these days so it may take a while.

SHF
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post #14513 of 14579 Old 01-31-2017, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Thanks! That's very helpful. I don't suppose you have a link that locates cell sites by carrier? I've been trying to figure out what kind of a path I have to some of the signals I see on the spectrum analyzer. Mostly I've been met with frustration. I have no real close by sites. They all appear to be in the 6-20 mile range so I need an outdoor antenna to get a solid signal.

Below is my first experiment with my old GOES WEFAX dish which worked very well. The second image is what I ended up and is only a couple of dB weaker.

Chuck
Just out of curiosity, what is the purpose of your long-distance cellular reception? It it a radio hobby thing, or are you merely trying to receive phone calls on your mobile?

If it is the former, everybody needs a hobby.

If you just want to make and receive phone calls, most cellular carriers combined with a modern smartphone will prefer (when the tower signal is weak or non-existent) to transmit the phone call over the internet to your home wireless. This became a reality on Verizon within about the past 6 months, although every carrier is different. Some have had the capability for much longer. Of course this presumes you have internet access.

Lifespeed
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post #14514 of 14579 Old 01-31-2017, 09:48 PM
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What most of us know, and Chuck has posted pictures of his tower.

It is ~ 75' tall and even with that DTV is very limited for him. Internet is almost none compared to what most of us have. Google "Mountain Ranch, CA".

I got caught trying to understand why he had so much trouble getting KGO and when I plotted the LOS from his tower to Sutro, I was shocked by my lack of knowledge. It passed almost right through KTNC's tower on Mt. Diablo. And that point is 80 miles too short. The signals from Sutro are totally blocked most of the time and Mt. San Bruno also.

The LOS to the DTV stations passes just barely above the ground and if a shrub grows too high, sorry. Now is the end of the good time as the shrubs that were burned in the big fire are now growing back.

SHF
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Sino TV Program Listings

I am trying to sort out if "Sino TV" on KCNS VC 38.2 RF 39 TMS / Gracenote / Zap2It / Schedules Direct listings are wrong as none of the programs are in English or the name "Sino TV" is wrong.

SHF
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post #14516 of 14579 Old 02-01-2017, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
I ended up with a name that implied cell usage. (My question) Now there are TWO, the second is half the height (45.7) Note: this is the highest point around.

Registration Number 1064569
Status Constructed
File Number A1000917
Owner Name UNITED STATES CELLULAR CORPORATION
Latitude/Longitude Structure 42-51-23.0N 089-32-40.0W
City/State BELLEVILLE, WI Overall Height Above Ground (AGL) 82.3
US Cellular does own more of its own towers than most cell carriers because it tends to be in more rural areas where the towers aren't in high demand.

Digging into that area a bit, that tower is owned by US Cellular, as you note. Looking at Google Street View, it appears there's another carrier at a lower height on the tower. ULS suggests it's probably Sprint, since Sprint has a licensed microwave antenna there.

The shorter adjacent tower is owned by SBA and has one carrier on it. Comparing with T-Mobile's coverage map, it is probably not T-Mobile. So, by process of elimination, it's likely either Verizon or AT&T, but I'm not sure which.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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post #14517 of 14579 Old 02-01-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
Just out of curiosity, what is the purpose of your long-distance cellular reception? It it a radio hobby thing, or are you merely trying to receive phone calls on your mobile?

If it is the former, everybody needs a hobby.

If you just want to make and receive phone calls, most cellular carriers combined with a modern smartphone will prefer (when the tower signal is weak or non-existent) to transmit the phone call over the internet to your home wireless. This became a reality on Verizon within about the past 6 months, although every carrier is different. Some have had the capability for much longer. Of course this presumes you have internet access.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Do you mean Verizon's home internet and phone modem/router?

https://www.verizonwireless.com/home...nd-home-phone/

This device gives you LTE internet but phone calls go over the older 850/1900MHz voice network. That's what the two antenna inputs are for. Sounds like you're talking about VOIP. I have an Ooma to do that and it's free except for state/federal taxes. If there's something else maybe you can provide a link to it.

My closest voice network site is 11 miles away and the LTE site is 15 miles away in almost opposite directions.

My internet provider is a local guy who's running a wireless network on the 2.4GHz and 5GHz unlicensed bands. The speed is usually pretty good with no data caps.

Chuck
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post #14518 of 14579 Old 02-01-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Do you mean Verizon's home internet and phone modem/router?
Here is a Wikipedia article on wifi calling, as well as a FAQ from Verizon. The cliff notes version is mobile calls (which are now natively VoIP, or VoLTE as the carriers like to call it) can just as easily have their packets sent over the internet at large, making the link to your mobile phone over your home wifi. There is no longer a requirement that your mobile phone is connected to the network using their tower, merely being connected to the internet on wifi works fine. In fact, in those cases where the tower coverage is not good a solid fixed internet connection is better. The phone will even hand off seamlessly from wifi to tower, although in your specific case the tower doesn't cover your house for the seamless handoff. But your cellular repeater wouldn't address that either.

If your point-to-point microwave internet is reliable and reasonably low latency you don't need a cellular repeater at your house to use your mobile phone to make and receive calls. Good wifi coverage and a recent-vintage smartphone (Samsung Galaxy S7 is one example, but there are others) are all that is needed. The internet connection does not need to be LTE from a mobile carrier, any good internet provider will do.

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post #14519 of 14579 Old 02-01-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
If your point-to-point microwave internet is reliable and reasonably low latency you don't need a cellular repeater at your house to use your mobile phone to make and receive calls. Good wifi coverage and a recent-vintage smartphone (Samsung Galaxy S7 is one example, but there are others) are all that is needed. The internet connection does not need to be LTE from a mobile carrier, any good internet provider will do.

Okay, I got it. This is all well and good if your internet connection never goes down. Every time we lose power there's no internet. This is one of the reasons I have OTA TV and haven't been real happy with taking away the 600MHz spectrum. I don't want to put all my eggs in the internet basket and then have no access to anything when the internet goes down. I like having the cell phone independent of the internet. The last time we lost power in the recent big storms I fired up my generator and still had TV and an operational cell phone even if the internet was down.

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post #14520 of 14579 Old 02-01-2017, 05:31 PM
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I'm getting from 0% to 9% signal for Channel 2 KTVU, Fox Bay Area this morning from my rooftop antenna (I'm in Berkeley), not enough to record an HD program. Is it them or me? My other "favorite" stations all are ~75% or higher (i.e. 4, 5, 7, 9, 11).

I have two rooftop antennas, so I switched cables to my MyHD-130 HDTV card to my other antenna, but have the same behavior, so I'm pretty sure it isn't an antenna or cable problem.

Anyone else having problems this morning with Channel 2, KTVU?
I've noticed a weaker signal from them in recent weeks. They used to show up in the mid-20's for SNR, and now they're down around 18. I popped in here just to post about this very thing.

All the other stations from Sutro are coming in between 24 and 30 SNR; only KTVU is exhibiting low SNR for some reason. They have the same ERP, same HAAT, and approximately the same polar plot as KRON and just six channels away, but I'm getting KRON at about 6dB higher SNR relative to KTVU.

My location is in San Mateo, about 3 miles southeast of SFO.

Last edited by Nicklas Johnson; 02-01-2017 at 05:40 PM.
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