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post #14671 of 15199 Old 03-02-2017, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I've been very happy with my XG91. Using that along with a 10 element VHF vagi I've been able to scan in 168 sub-channels here in San Francisco. Four of the stations with a total of 11 sub-channels were via skip, but I can regularly get about 150 sub-channels on a regular basis from Sutro, Mt. San Bruno the two peaks above Fremont, Mt. Diablo, Novato, Sonoma Mt. and Walnut Grove. You need a rotor to accomplish this, but the XG91 works great. I certainly consider getting that.

Larry
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Going by your TV Fool report I doubt that the Sutro signals are too weak. It's probably a multipath issue. KPIX, KRON and KTVU share the same antenna. The DB8e may have the highest gain but the 91XG has the best pattern and that can help with multipath if that's the issue. The problem with multipath is that it can come from reflections and it can be on the main path due to obstructions in the path. The 91XG can help with the former but no antenna can help with the latter.

Chuck
Given that I don't have a signal level or gain problem (the tuner indicates 100% even when the SNR is decreasing) I think the recommendations for the 91XG Yagi are sound. The DB8e and the CM4228HD are higher-gain narrower-beam versions of what I already have, a bowtie antenna. An inherently more directional design is probably the best I can do against multipath. Maybe I'll tilt it upwards slightly towards the top of the hill responsible for the one-edge issue.

In some reviews on the net people have indicated the 91XG outperforms bowtie antennae in multipath situations, as stated here.

Lifespeed
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post #14672 of 15199 Old 03-02-2017, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
Maybe I'll tilt it upwards slightly towards the top of the hill responsible for the one-edge issue.

Tilting it up will not affect the signal strength because the vertical beamwidth of the main lobe is too wide to make any difference. In a few cases tilting it up has made a difference in the response to reflections because of where the side and rear lobes happen to be. It can also make it worse.

Chuck
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post #14673 of 15199 Old 03-02-2017, 10:06 PM
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I just watched a one hour show recorded at 8 PM from before I pointed the antenna directly at Sutro. Previously it was about 20 degrees east of direct, splitting the difference to the Fremont stations and pointing more into the hill which lies mostly to the east of Sutro LOS. There was not a single break up! I question my assessment that direct pointing has improved the situation. Although in the days before I re-aimed it, it was breaking up enough for me to become dissatisfied and attempt to improve it.

Multipath is confusing. I guess we all know every antenna situation is different, and theory only goes so far. I did order the 91XG, and it's better directivity may still help.

Lifespeed

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post #14674 of 15199 Old 03-03-2017, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post
Programming will be action TV and movies.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/new...network/162526
Thanks!

I can't figure this out..when The Works switched off, one of my TVs lost 38.6. I've rescanned several times and still not there. 38.1-38.5 are there. Another TV hooked to the same antenna still has 38.6, never lost it. Why did I lose it and can't get it back on the first TV?
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post #14675 of 15199 Old 03-03-2017, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulamI View Post
Thanks!

I can't figure this out..when The Works switched off, one of my TVs lost 38.6. I've rescanned several times and still not there. 38.1-38.5 are there. Another TV hooked to the same antenna still has 38.6, never lost it. Why did I lose it and can't get it back on the first TV?
Just checked here. So they have the channel on, but are feeding no program to it. (black screen, blue screen, etc)
So one of your tv brand / models is designed to delete a channel that does not have any type of streaming program. Nothing really to worry about.
The works is on 38.6 and 42.2 here.
Both have no program on it.
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post #14676 of 15199 Old 03-03-2017, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
Just checked here. So they have the channel on, but are feeding no program to it. (black screen, blue screen, etc)
So one of your tv brand / models is designed to delete a channel that does not have any type of streaming program. Nothing really to worry about.
The works is on 38.6 and 42.2 here.
Both have no program on it.
Hmm, my TV that never lost it has a guy talking religion and it says SBN in the top right of the screen on 38.6
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post #14677 of 15199 Old 03-09-2017, 11:08 PM
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Hi,
Channel 3 from Mt Tam is back on the air. I had a bad connector.

From what is being granted lately for LPTV and from what is not being granted, it does appear that KRCB probably ended up on channel 5. Also, there is a new mystery channel 13 in the SF Bay Area.

Blessings,
Keith
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post #14678 of 15199 Old 03-10-2017, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Hi,
Channel 3 from Mt Tam is back on the air. I had a bad connector.

From what is being granted lately for LPTV and from what is not being granted, it does appear that KRCB probably ended up on channel 5. Also, there is a new mystery channel 13 in the SF Bay Area.

Blessings,
Keith
I enjoy the way Keith keeps SF people up to date on all his stations. But when I look at his pictured icon on AVS posts, I think of a pair of pants.

Will the last subscriber leaving Dish Network please turn off the satellite.
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post #14679 of 15199 Old 03-10-2017, 06:51 AM
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I enjoy the way Keith keeps SF people up to date on all his stations. But when I look at his pictured icon on AVS posts, I think of a pair of pants.
Lol! Someone call David Letterman's company!
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post #14680 of 15199 Old 03-10-2017, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Also, there is a new mystery channel 13 in the SF Bay Area.

You mean KQTA, your station? Why only 4 watts?

Chuck
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post #14681 of 15199 Old 03-10-2017, 08:25 AM
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Hi Chuck,
I meant that there is a full power on 13 that is preventing a minor mod of KQTA-LD. So, that new station is hidden to me now.

Also, 4 watts was all that would fit interference-wise.

Also, I now see the blue jeans pants for my user picture. The picture is actually the KFTY-LD tower and antennas.

Blessings,
Keith
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post #14682 of 15199 Old 03-10-2017, 12:50 PM
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Keith,

Maybe it's the result of the repack and there's going to be a full power station on 13 in the SF or Sacramento market. Right now KCBA is only full power station anywhere near here on 13.

All our speculation should be over in a month.

Chuck
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post #14683 of 15199 Old 03-10-2017, 04:18 PM
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I think we might be in for a lot of surprises when the FCC releases the Repack station list.

My station lists are ready for me to fill in the numbers!

Larry

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post #14684 of 15199 Old 03-10-2017, 11:52 PM
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Here's a picture of KQRO-LD (RF2) from today from Mt Chual overlooking San Jose You can see the two element CA2-CP antenna on the tower and the 10 element yagi on the building picking up KTVJ-LD from Mt Tam.
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post #14685 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 07:04 AM
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Keith,

Something is wrong with KTVJ. It looks like it's on the antennas that you were using when it first came on the air. The signal is no longer flat. This significantly reduces the SNR.

Chuck
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post #14686 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Keith,

Something is wrong with KTVJ. It looks like it's on the antennas that you were using when it first came on the air. The signal is no longer flat. This significantly reduces the SNR.

Chuck


Hi Chuck,


It looks like I need to go back out to Mt. Tam today to further work on KTVJ. I was frantic on Tuesday to figure out if there was a problem and ended up making four cables to extend the antenna cables to go into a different power splitter. I didn't have a network analyzer to properly cut the extension cables and then ran out of time to back out of my experimental changes. It looks like I should undo what I did.
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post #14687 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 11:12 AM
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Hi Chuck,
Will you be around today around 1:30? The reason for the ktvj roll off is that I didn't phase the cables for my temporary experimentation for ktvj. I'll back out the change in two hours and I'd like for you to measure again.
Also, I was wrong about there being a 13 in San Fran. My minor mod for KQTA caused .3% too much interference to Reno 13. I'll amend it. I'll also take time today to get things ready for KQTA-LD on Mt. Tam in anticipation of a minor mod grant to move KQTA there.

Blessings,
Keith
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post #14688 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 01:47 PM
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Keith,

I just checked KTVJ and no change so far at 1:45pm. I'm here all day.

Chuck


Edit: KTVJ off the air at 2 pm. I'll keep eye on it.

Last edited by Calaveras; 03-11-2017 at 01:58 PM.
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post #14689 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 04:08 PM
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Hi Chuck,

How does it look now? I've been doing all sorts of experimentation today.

Blessings,
Keith
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post #14690 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 04:41 PM
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I saw it come on briefly around 3:45pm and the slope was the opposite. Now it's flat but maybe not as s strong as before.

Chuck
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post #14691 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 04:58 PM
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Hi Chuck,

How about now? Two bays instead of one.

Blessings,
Keith
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post #14692 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 05:52 PM
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No. That's not good. It has a steep slope from low end to high end.

Chuck
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post #14693 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 06:14 PM
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Hi Chuck,
Thanks. I went back to just using the top bay. The receive level is 27.5 dB SNR on Mt. Chual at KQRO-LD, so it is good enough for now (I hope).

Blessings,
Keith
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post #14694 of 15199 Old 03-11-2017, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I've been very happy with my XG91. Using that along with a 10 element VHF vagi I've been able to scan in 168 sub-channels here in San Francisco. Four of the stations with a total of 11 sub-channels were via skip, but I can regularly get about 150 sub-channels on a regular basis from Sutro, Mt. San Bruno the two peaks above Fremont, Mt. Diablo, Novato, Sonoma Mt. and Walnut Grove. You need a rotor to accomplish this, but the XG91 works great. I certainly consider getting that.

Larry
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Going by your TV Fool report I doubt that the Sutro signals are too weak. It's probably a multipath issue. KPIX, KRON and KTVU share the same antenna. The DB8e may have the highest gain but the 91XG has the best pattern and that can help with multipath if that's the issue. The problem with multipath is that it can come from reflections and it can be on the main path due to obstructions in the path. The 91XG can help with the former but no antenna can help with the latter.

Chuck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifespeed
Given that I don't have a signal level or gain problem (the tuner indicates 100% even when the SNR is decreasing) I think the recommendations for the 91XG Yagi are sound. The DB8e and the CM4228HD are higher-gain narrower-beam versions of what I already have, a bowtie antenna. An inherently more directional design is probably the best I can do against multipath. Maybe I'll tilt it upwards slightly towards the top of the hill responsible for the one-edge issue.

In some reviews on the net people have indicated the 91XG outperforms bowtie antennae in multipath situations, as stated here.
Here is the XG91 installed towards Sutro and San Bruno, with the DB4e re-aimed 45 degrees to the east of San Francisco towards Fremont. So far the SF stations are much improved by the Yagi antenna. I think I am noticing less disruption when large aluminum airplanes fly overhead, and the troublesome time around twilight when the atmosphere changes still holds a clean picture.

The numbers for signal, SNR and symbol quality don't seem to have changed much, but the dynamic, intermittent pixelation really seems to be gone!


Lifespeed
TV fool




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Last edited by lifespeed; 03-11-2017 at 07:14 PM.
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post #14695 of 15199 Old 03-12-2017, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
Here is the XG91 installed towards Sutro and San Bruno, with the DB4e re-aimed 45 degrees to the east of San Francisco towards Fremont. So far the SF stations are much improved by the Yagi antenna. I think I am noticing less disruption when large aluminum airplanes fly overhead, and the troublesome time around twilight when the atmosphere changes still holds a clean picture.

The numbers for signal, SNR and symbol quality don't seem to have changed much, but the dynamic, intermittent pixelation really seems to be gone!

Lifespeed
I'm happy to hear that your new XG91 is working well for you.

You have a nice looking installation. I hope you tightened those back reflectors well. Both of mine fell off in the high wind and had to be re-installed. Since then everything's been okay.

How have you got your two antennas tied into your system? Are you using switches like I am?

Larry

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post #14696 of 15199 Old 03-12-2017, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Hi Chuck,
Thanks. I went back to just using the top bay. The receive level is 27.5 dB SNR on Mt. Chual at KQRO-LD, so it is good enough for now (I hope).

Blessings,
Keith

Keith,

Attached is a spectrum analyzer image comparing channels 2-4 from August 2015 and today. The original image was a month before the fire which did change some paths permanently.

The shape of the KFTY waveform is essentially unchanged but weaker. That could be conditions at the moment.

The KCSO waveform has changed over the winter although overall the strength is the same. The KCSO antenna pattern off the rear varies a lot with the rain. The huge amount of rain we've had seems to have permanently altered it. I'll be glad when they move to Walnut Grove.

I don't know what to make of KTVJ. It's weaker (could be conditions) and the shape is different.... less flat. I don't know what's causing that. It could be that path has changed although it would be the only station I've noticed that on over the winter. Whatever the cause, it's not as good for me.

A transmitter at Walnut Grove and especially on Fowler Peak would be much better for me.

I'll post another image if I see a large increase in the signal strengths.

Chuck
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post #14697 of 15199 Old 03-12-2017, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I'm happy to hear that your new XG91 is working well for you.

You have a nice looking installation. I hope you tightened those back reflectors well. Both of mine fell off in the high wind and had to be re-installed. Since then everything's been okay.

How have you got your two antennas tied into your system? Are you using switches like I am?

Larry
Thanks. I noticed the cheap hardware when I assembled it and made sure the joints were torqued and didn't move.

The Yagi is connected through 20' of RG6 to a Silicondust network tuner in the attic. I will buy a second HDHR-4US tuner and connect the bowtie antenna the same way; no RF combiners, switches, rotor or pre-amp. The lack of a need for antenna pointing and switching makes it easy for a media server computer to DVR shows and stream the antennae. Which tuner provides which channel is configurable, ensuring the appropriate antenna is selected and available to our devices locally and over the internet using Emby media server and clients. To compare the new XG91 multi-path rejection to the old antenna I would pull out my smartphone and stream KPIX from the back yard when I saw an airliner coming in to land. I'm not that close to the airport, either, indicating the broad beam DB4e is not good for multi-path in the hilly bay area.

I checked the DB4e in it's new orientation towards Mt. Allison. It provides a modest improvement to KGO-TV RF35 VC7.1 repeater in Fremont, which is the only major channel in the SF bay area I am not getting perfectly. The funny thing is the 45 degree off-axis San Francisco XG91 gets all the Fremont stations without issue (at least the ones I am interested in) except for the weak 12KW KGO repeater. I don't have a VHF antenna to get KGO from Sutro. So this means the Fremont-pointed DB4e antenna will largely exist for the purpose of somewhat improving the reception of KGO RF channel 35 repeater. Probably I should exchange the bowtie for a Yagi aimed at Fremont to get a signal with no dropouts at all, as the DB4e to Fremont still suffers the occasional pixelation.

Lifespeed

Last edited by lifespeed; 03-13-2017 at 10:14 AM.
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post #14698 of 15199 Old 03-12-2017, 10:34 AM
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Hi Chuck,

It looked like you were receiving ktvj at 5 dB stronger than kfty. KFTY is at 2 dB higher power now and KTVJ is down 3 dB due to operating on one bay instead of two. So, they should now be equal power at your place. It looks like both KFTY and KTVJ are lower now at your place. So, the conditions have changed. I'm not sure if the roll off in KTVJ's spectrum is real or not. I'll take a spectrum analyzer with me next time I'm up on Mt Tam.

Blessings,
Keith
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post #14699 of 15199 Old 03-12-2017, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Hi Chuck,

It looked like you were receiving ktvj at 5 dB stronger than kfty. KFTY is at 2 dB higher power now and KTVJ is down 3 dB due to operating on one bay instead of two. So, they should now be equal power at your place. It looks like both KFTY and KTVJ are lower now at your place. So, the conditions have changed. I'm not sure if the roll off in KTVJ's spectrum is real or not. I'll take a spectrum analyzer with me next time I'm up on Mt Tam.

Blessings,
Keith
Is K03HY off the air? .... Again
KTVJ is in the dumper notice 15% weaker.
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post #14700 of 15199 Old 03-12-2017, 10:33 PM
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I don't have any fancy equipment to go by, just the signal strength from the TV and the signal quality from my HD Home Run receivers, but here KTVJ is at slightly below its normal strength of about 23 dB SNR, now at 21 dB, but the signal quality shown on the HDHR is down quite a bit from what it used to be. I used get an 80% reading for SQ, but now it's down to 60-61%.

For Keith's and Ben's info, K03IC (the new call for the channel 3 transmitter, the former K03HY) was there a couple of days ago at 14-15 dB, but I see no signs of it tonight.

Larry

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