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post #14761 of 15774 Old 03-16-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
That is quite a bit of engineering work to do in 39 months; new highly complex RF, FPGA and DSP silicon as well as integrating it into a PCB design. No doubt the power amplifier requirements are more linear as well. Hopefully the hardware vendors are on it as we speak.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3

There is a new product that is a ATSC 3.0 receiver with a steerable antenna that sends the ATSC 3.0 streams to other devices via WiFi.

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The ATSC 3.0 wireless network antenna is based on an LG-developed uni-directional antenna array with unique electronic steering logic designed to optimize indoor reception.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300252523.html

I saw the smart antenna description decades ago but could not understand how it could work over the wide TV band wavelengths and was very surprised by that announcement. If that device has been built then other wondrous ATSC 3.0 devices must also be soon to be available.

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Last edited by SFischer1; 03-16-2017 at 06:51 PM. Reason: ATSC 3.0 is not in the silo, the DTV repack is
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post #14762 of 15774 Old 03-16-2017, 07:40 PM
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Are any of you watching KFTL TV 28.4 Blues Television Network. Thumbs up or down as to their programming?

Will the last subscriber leaving Dish Network please turn off the satellite.
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post #14763 of 15774 Old 03-16-2017, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rdvegas View Post
Are any of you watching KFTL TV 28.4 Blues Television Network. Thumbs up or down as to their programming?
BLUE??? All I see is BLACK at 8 PM 3/16/2017

EDIT: At 8:20 PM I have a picture and sound but the aspect ratio is set wrong, it should be 16:9 not 4:3.
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post #14764 of 15774 Old 03-16-2017, 11:52 PM
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Looks like we have a programming outage now (Thursday night) on all subchannels on K03IC & KTVJ
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post #14765 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rdvegas View Post
Are any of you watching KFTL TV 28.4 Blues Television Network. Thumbs up or down as to their programming?
Not a Blues lover so I don't watch it regularly enough to give you an opinion. Sorry, RD.

Larry
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post #14766 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
Looks like we have a programming outage now (Thursday night) on all subchannels on K03IC & KTVJ
I've got a weak signal from KTVJ, nothing from K03IC. The KTVJ signal is only 13.5 dB, so I don't get a picture.

Larry

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post #14767 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Thinking about the ATSC 3.0 transition and the repack, in the SF Bay area very few RF channels may be available for the ATSC 1.0 / ATSC 3.0 dual transmission period.
SHF
I think someone already pointed this out, but a station can only be ATSC 1.0 or ATSC 3.0... not both. If they chose to go with the new format, they still have to supply an ATSC 1.0 signal that would have to be carried as a sub-channel on another station. As I pointed out yesterday, it's been suggested that one station might go ATSC 3.0 and carry programming from other stations in the market in addition to their own.

They say that ATSC 3.0 will work well with mobile TV receivers, tablets, cell-phones, etc., but I don't think anyone has developed an app for that yet. I'm sure they will in time though. But who's going to want to watch 4K TV on a tiny tablet? That's what 65-inch 4K TVs are for!

Larry

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post #14768 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 01:26 AM
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I spent some time earlier today putting together a new version of my station list. It lists the stations in order by Re-pack channel number. Some are guesses and are marked with a question mark next to the channel number, such as 29 ?, and many are listed at the bottom of the list since we have no information. It pretty much lines up with the information that Chuck has provided in his spreadsheet, but it's not nearly as pretty looking.

I will update this list as more information becomes available.

You'll find it here if you want to take a look: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair3.html

Larry

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post #14769 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
Looks like we have a programming outage now (Thursday night) on all subchannels on K03IC & KTVJ.
Then I wrote: "I've got a weak signal from KTVJ, nothing from K03IC. The KTVJ signal is only 13.5 dB, so I don't get a picture."

This morning signals are back to normal. Apparently conditions were absolutely terrible last night, because I just checked KTVJ this morning and the signal is back up again to it’s normal level, looking good. There was a 10.5 dB SNR difference between last night's 13.5 dB to this morning’s 24 dB. The past week or so, we've been saying how KTVJ has been weaker than normal by 3 dB. Well, it’s not low now. It’s back to its normal level!

K03IC, which didn’t even register last night, is back up to its normal 15 - 16 dB level, too!

I’ve never seen such a drastic change over a distance of just 14 miles - the distance from Mt. Tam to my home here in San Francisco. As they say on the infomercials, it’s simply amazing! And remember, my signal readings are from my VHF/UHF combination antennas, the 10 element VHF yagi and the 91XG, not from an antenna cut for low VHF.

Happy St. Patrick’s Day!

Larry

Edit: Wow! Five posts in a row!

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post #14770 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
I spent some time earlier today putting together a new version of my station list. It lists the stations in order by Re-pack channel number. Some are guesses and are marked with a question mark next to the channel number, such as 29 ?, and many are listed at the bottom of the list since we have no information. It pretty much lines up with the information that Chuck has provided in his spreadsheet, but it's not nearly as pretty looking.

I will update this list as more information becomes available.

You'll find it here if you want to take a look: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair3.html

Larry
While I do watch some of the stations you list at times, my main viewing are the sub streams, actually programs that I place in my "watch" list of my automatic capture scheduling program (CW_EPG). I added a new program to my watch list to capture a weekend blitz on one stream and then a few weeks later more programs appeared on a different stream. Those have stopped but there may be more to come.

I have shifted my understanding of the old NTSC concept of one station one signal to thinking about those as just as another stream that might appear anywhere. KGO on KNTV, just look to the South at KSBW.

All the sub streams are considered equal and their old stations they appear on to have cancel dates or soon will as well as the "main" streams. The new RF channels may lose the old "owners" and may be owned by others to provide a home for streams. The value and understanding of what a license for a RF channel means appears to be ready to shift.

So, where the streams disappear, reappear are deals to be made including:

the old definition of a station is fading quickly so your list is an empty shell for my needs and cannot be added to before several years in the future to become useful.

Nancy, we are not in Kansas anymore, the rabbit hole closed up and outer space worm holes will become the norm.

I watch "programs", not stations. I followed MHz International Mystery from KCSM to a free stream on the internet to a current a $8 / Month service.

SHF

Last edited by SFischer1; 03-17-2017 at 10:14 AM.
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post #14771 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 09:32 AM
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Are any of you OTA folks getting audio dropouts in the KNTV signal? At least two, and probably more Comcast users have seen a lot of audio dropouts in the past few weeks and I'm trying to narrow down where the problem is. KNTV up to this point has been basically flawless, the best PQ/AQ in the market, but recently the audio has been rather messy. This regards primetime content, although, it may occur throughout the broadcast day, I don't watch during the day.

Thanks
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post #14772 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Then I wrote: "I've got a weak signal from KTVJ, KTVJ this morning and the signal is back up again to it’s normal level, looking good. There was a 10.5 dB SNR difference between last night's 13.5 dB to this morning’s 24 dB.


Hi Larry,
This is why I need to move KTVJ-LD and K03IC-D down to Sutro to get away from the fog effect and other atmospheric effects. I saw the same effect with my FM translator on 91.5 up on Mt. St. Helena. It was having trouble feeding my other FM translator in Santa Rosa lately. VHF just didn't want to come down off the mountains!


I hope channel 11 stays open in San Fran, since you guys are saying that channel 13 is now taken.


I guess we've narrowed down KRCB to two possible channels: 5 or 7. However, since there was such a large payout, I'm still thinking it will be channel 5 and that Sacramento ended up with channel 7.


Blessings,
Keith
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post #14773 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
More VHF speculation....

Consider the following:

The NAB list only contains stations that are moving. Stations staying on the same channel are not listed.

KCRA, KQCA and KSBW are owned by Hearst Stations. Only KQCA is listed so it would seem that KCRA and KSBW are not moving.

A prime consideration of the repack software is to place stations in the same market on adjacent channels where possible.

On VHF we know that KVIE on 9 is not moving so it's likely that KXTV is staying on 10. We know KGO is going to 12 and KNTV is going to 13. It's likely a yet to be identified SF market station is going to 11.

That leaves the Salinas market with KSBW on 8. KCBA and KNTV on 13 wouldn't work. The logical choice is to move KCBA to 7.

The final high VHF repack would be 7 & 8 Salinas, 9 & 10 Sacramento and 11, 12 & 13 San Francisco.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,


The TV Study software figured out the most optimal way to repack the band and get the most efficiency.
My guess is that Sacramento now has 7, 8 9, and 10 and that the Salinas high-VHF stations can co-exist on the same channels that are used in Sacramento. This means San Fran only got high VHF channels 12 and 13. I think that we still see the buffer channel of 11 between Sacramento and San Fran.


Since K03IC-D recently was granted its move from Petaluma to Mt. Tam, this makes me think channels 2, 3 and 4 are safe for LPTV in the SF Bay.


Since the LPTV on channel 6 on Sutter Buttes was recently moved into Sacramento, this makes me think channel 6 is safe for LPTV in Sacramento and that KRCB was not awarded channel 6.


Therefore, my best guess is KRCB is on channel 5.


Blessings,
Keith
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post #14774 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Hi Chuck,


The TV Study software figured out the most optimal way to repack the band and get the most efficiency.
My guess is that Sacramento now has 7, 8 9, and 10 and that the Salinas high-VHF stations can co-exist on the same channels that are used in Sacramento. This means San Fran only got high VHF channels 12 and 13. I think that we still see the buffer channel of 11 between Sacramento and San Fran.


Since K03IC-D recently was granted its move from Petaluma to Mt. Tam, this makes me think channels 2, 3 and 4 are safe for LPTV in the SF Bay.


Since the LPTV on channel 6 on Sutter Buttes was recently moved into Sacramento, this makes me think channel 6 is safe for LPTV in Sacramento and that KRCB was not awarded channel 6.


Therefore, my best guess is KRCB is on channel 5.


Blessings,
Keith

Hi Keith,

You may very well be right but I don't think there'll be a full power station in Walnut Grove on 8. KSBW is really strong out here. KBTV analog used to be on 8 from Downtown Sacramento and it co-existed with KSBW but was no good at my place. Under average conditions KSBW is about as strong as 9 & 10 from Walnut Grove and much stronger under good conditions.

All the Salinas UHF stations either have directional antennas away from here and/or run low power so they could share Sacramento UHF channels. KOVR/KQET and KQCA/K46LG are doing that now. Sometimes conditions get so good that KQET impacts KOVR even pointed to Walnut Grove.

Why do you think there needs to be a buffer channel channel between SF and Sacramento?

All this will be known in about 3 weeks.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 03-17-2017 at 07:19 PM.
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post #14775 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
Los Angeles,.. being coastal,...has avoided 13 as well.
In LA, KCOP-13 has been broadcasting on VHF 13 since the 40s (they kept 13 during the digital transition)
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post #14776 of 15774 Old 03-17-2017, 09:06 PM
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In LA, KCOP-13 has been broadcasting on VHF 13 since the 40s (they kept 13 during the digital transition)
You're correct .. Just looked it up. Even the land mobile stations are different down there.
It's a safe bet we will be using 13 here now ... (Salinas Monterey) market does and they are a coastal market too.
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post #14777 of 15774 Old 03-18-2017, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
It's a safe bet we will be using 13 here now ... (Salinas Monterey) market does and they are a coastal market too.
We are for sure. That's where KNTV is going to be. KGO will be on 12. Since KNTV will be on 13, I think KCBA will be moving, We'll see in a few weeks!

Larry

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post #14778 of 15774 Old 03-18-2017, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Then I wrote: "I've got a weak signal from KTVJ, nothing from K03IC. The KTVJ signal is only 13.5 dB, so I don't get a picture."
This morning signals are back to normal. Apparently conditions were absolutely terrible last night,
K03IC, which didn’t even register last night, is back up to its normal 15 - 16 dB level, too!

Larry
I'm not (never had) .. any signal problems with KTVJ.
His links were down. Nothing being broadcast > but transmitter on.
Location..location..location... never any signal problems with KTVJ.

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Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Hi Larry,
This is why I need to move KTVJ-LD and K03IC-D down to Sutro to get away from the fog effect and other atmospheric effects.
Blessings,
Keith
Not sure what is going on. > Looks like K03IC-D & KTVJ have different antenna patterns or something.
Today..outdoors.. battery tv in hand... KTVJ...yes ... K03IC-D...NO
Same transmitter location .. same antenna here...
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post #14779 of 15774 Old 03-19-2017, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
The TV Study software figured out the most optimal way to repack the band and get the most efficiency.
To clarify one thing, TVStudy didn't do the optimization on its own, it provided the underlying coverage/interference calculations to the "Final Channel Assignment Tool" which did the optimization.

- Trip

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post #14780 of 15774 Old 03-20-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
To clarify one thing, TVStudy didn't do the optimization on its own, it provided the underlying coverage/interference calculations to the "Final Channel Assignment Tool" which did the optimization.

- Trip


Hi Trip,


My prayer request is that the "Final Channel Assignment Tool" moved KBSV in Ceres, CA, to Channel 28. I think this is a possibility, since it looks like KEZT-CD is moving to 14. So, this makes me think that one of the other smaller Class As in Sacramento will move to 15. With KBSV on 28, then this would get rid of KMMW-LD in Stockton on channel 28, which destroys the coverage of my non-profit's Class A, KKPM-CD over Sacramento. KBSV is somewhere in the ballpark of 10 to 20 dB weaker over Sacramento than KMMW-LD. This would be really helpful for me to allow KKPM-CD to cover most of Sacramento, once again.


I'm also praying that KCBA in Salinas moves from 13 to 11. That would most likely allow a slot for an LPTV in San Francisco on 11.


-> Oh no, correction. Since Santa Rosa 28 is moving to 21, then this looks like a full power station ended up with channel 28 in San Francisco. I'm hoping whatever station it is that it will displace KMMW-LD.

Blessings,
Keith

Last edited by kkpm; 03-20-2017 at 02:04 PM.
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post #14781 of 15774 Old 03-20-2017, 02:11 PM
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Hi Trip,

My prayer request ...

Blessings,
Keith
You will need to wait with the rest of us for the Mid April FCC announcement of the nation wide assignments.

Trip cannot say anything before then that has not been made public by the stations and most appear to be saying nothing.

Blame congress, they set the rules that the Public Reporting System will say nothing of use until then.

https://auctiondata.fcc.gov/public/projects/1000

SHF
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post #14782 of 15774 Old 03-20-2017, 02:24 PM
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You will need to wait with the rest of us for the Mid April FCC announcement of the nation wide assignments.

Trip cannot say anything before then that has not been made public by the stations and most appear to be saying nothing.

Blame congress, they set the rules that the Public Reporting System will say nothing of use until then.

https://auctiondata.fcc.gov/public/projects/1000

SHF


I think I'm happy. It looks like KMMW-D Stockton 28 would cause about 17% interference to a full power station on Sutro on channel 28. So, theoretically KMMW-D would have to reduce power or move to another channel. This would make me happy. When the auction started, I thought KKPM-CD was important and could be bought out, since it appeared that it would cause 5% interference to a full power station in San Fran if that San Fran station was on 28. It looks like this interference is acceptable after all, since it appears that there is in fact a full power in San Fran on channel 28 in the future, since Santa Rosa 28 has to move to 21. This will be nice to help KKPM-CD cover more of Sacramento without interference from KMMW-D.


Blessings,
Keith
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I didn't read Keith's message as asking for inside information, just as that being his prayer.

Of course, prayers now can't change what's already been determined. That was going to be my comment about the situation.

- Trip
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post #14784 of 15774 Old 03-20-2017, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
I didn't read Keith's message as asking for inside information, just as that being his prayer.

Of course, prayers now can't change what's already been determined. That was going to be my comment about the situation.

- Trip


It looks like one of my prayers has been answered. KBCW in San Francisco is getting channel 28. Looking at it quickly, it appears that KMMW-LD would cause > 2% incremental interference to KBCW on 28, even if KMMW-LD goes down to 10% power. I'm hoping KBCW complains about KMMW-LD causing interference. It'd be good to free up the spectrum in Sacramento for KKPM!


Blessings,
Keith
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post #14785 of 15774 Old 03-21-2017, 07:57 AM
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It looks like one of my prayers has been answered. KBCW in San Francisco is getting channel 28. Looking at it quickly, it appears that KMMW-LD would cause > 2% incremental interference to KBCW on 28, even if KMMW-LD goes down to 10% power. I'm hoping KBCW complains about KMMW-LD causing interference. It'd be good to free up the spectrum in Sacramento for KKPM!


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How is this going to work? Does a full power station have to complain about interference before the LPTV must go off or is an interference analysis done for every LP station to see if they'll cause too much interference to any full power station?

KMMW and KCSO are both owned by Serestar Communications, are located at the same site and broadcast the same programming. KCSO is on RF 3 but is moving to Walnut Grove. Maybe Serestar is expecting that KMMW will have to shut down.

Can a LP station upgrade their license to full power? If they can, then wouldn't that mean KCSO could upgrade and gain cable carry rights?

Chuck
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post #14786 of 15774 Old 03-21-2017, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
How is this going to work? Does a full power station have to complain about interference before the LPTV must go off or is an interference analysis done for every LP station to see if they'll cause too much interference to any full power station?

KMMW and KCSO are both owned by Serestar Communications, are located at the same site and broadcast the same programming. KCSO is on RF 3 but is moving to Walnut Grove. Maybe Serestar is expecting that KMMW will have to shut down.

Can a LP station upgrade their license to full power? If they can, then wouldn't that mean KCSO could upgrade and gain cable carry rights?

Chuck


It would be really nice if the FCC could run all LPTV licenses and permits against the new channel allocations and provide each LPTV with the information about the incremental interference caused. This hasn't been how things have been done in the past. In the past, it is the full power station that needs to let the LPTV station know to rectify the issue.


There was the Community Broadcasters Act back in 1999 that set up Class A TV. We're hoping that there will be another Class A window in the future.


I'm sorry to gripe about the interference from KMMW-LD to KKPM-CD. I had a though this morning that perhaps KBSV could also co-exist on channel 28. I need to run the numbers to see if it is possible, but I think it just might fit even though KBCW is also going to 28 as well as a Salinas station. The FCC is packing in stations like sardines. With KBCW and potentially KBSV moving to 28, this will provide relief to KKPM to be able to cover Sacramento better.


Blessings,
Keith
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post #14787 of 15774 Old 03-21-2017, 11:06 AM
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The NAB is seeking reconsideration on the 39 month time line for the repack process. They feel that there's so much work to be done, many stations will not be able to meet the deadline.

Here's the story from today's "TV Technology":

http://www.tvtechnology.com/news/000...eration/280616

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They probably think if they can stall it it will simply go away!

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post #14789 of 15774 Old 03-21-2017, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
The NAB is seeking reconsideration on the 39 month time line for the repack process. They feel that there's so much work to be done, many stations will not be able to meet the deadline.

Here's the story from today's "TV Technology":

http://www.tvtechnology.com/news/000...eration/280616

Larry
The only thing that really makes sense is to install ATSC 3.0 equipment, or it is a lot of money and effort that gets repeated in a very short time frame. Not that it makes the job any quicker or easier. And like most non-technical managers of a technical project, somebody decrees a date and makes a schedule to fit, whether it works or not.

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post #14790 of 15774 Old 03-21-2017, 05:36 PM
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And like most non-technical managers of a technical project, somebody decrees a date and makes a schedule to fit, whether it works or not.
Or they seek out dozens of industry experts and manufacturers asking if their schedule is feasible and, having been told that it is, set the schedule accordingly.

You know, just saying.

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