San Francisco, CA - OTA - Page 506 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 172Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #15151 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 12:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,344
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
That's a good antenna for the UHF channels, but not so good for VHF. It's not made to receive VHF channels, although it works somewhat if you're receiving a strong signal. If you put up a VHF antenna, you'd get channels transmitting on VHF much better.

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html
Live reception scans from my HD Home Run receivers: http://www.larrykenney.com/hdhr/
Photos and info on my antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html
Larry Kenney is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #15152 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 08:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
spongebob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Jose, Ca.
Posts: 2,936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
That's a good antenna for the UHF channels, but not so good for VHF. It's not made to receive VHF channels, although it works somewhat if you're receiving a strong signal. If you put up a VHF antenna, you'd get channels transmitting on VHF much better.

Thanks, Larry,

Do you mean add a VHF antenna or get a better all in one? Suggestions?


bob
spongebob is offline  
post #15153 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 08:17 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 10,992
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1510 Post(s)
Liked: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Yes, but do you know which 7 or which 2 you're receiving? Is it 7 from Sutro or 7 from Mt. Allison? Is it 2 from Sutro or 2 from Monument Peak?

Larry
I checked the menu on my LG tv and it indicates this:

Channel Info: Digital 7-1
177.00MHz
SNR: -31dB
Signal Level: 78%
Under Manual Tuning it indicates Channel 7, DTV 7-1 KGO-HD

Channel Info: Digital 2-1
653.00MHz
SNR: -31dB
Signal Level: 77%
Under Manual Tuning it indicates Channel 44, DTV 2-1 KTVU-HD

So I guess I have a mixed bag with my rooftop antenna? Either way both stations are practically trouble-free. Now that I've retired, I do watch a little more daytime tv and have noticed the occasional pixelation during that time but evening viewing is trouble-free.
Otto Pylot is offline  
 
post #15154 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 08:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bobby94928's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rohnert Park, CA
Posts: 4,982
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
That's a good antenna for the UHF channels, but not so good for VHF. It's not made to receive VHF channels, although it works somewhat if you're receiving a strong signal. If you put up a VHF antenna, you'd get channels transmitting on VHF much better.
I'm going to say that depends, Larry. As you know, I have a 4228 in Rohnert Prk and have for at least 20 years. So, I have the original 4228, not the one that says HD on the end of its nomenclature. I have always received 7 on it and when 12 (KNTV) was on Loma Prieta, a very long way from Rohnert Park, I received it as well. I do have issues with 12 since they moved to San Bruno. I also receive Keith's stations on both channel 2 and 3, something that surprised me. I believe that, when the 4228-HD first came out, that it was determined that the newer model wasn't as receptive as the original. But, yes, that was why I asked if he had a VHF antenna. When the repack comes and we have more channels in the VHF range I will have to consider, maybe, an antenna change.

Bobby 

bobby94928 is offline  
post #15155 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 08:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bobby94928's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rohnert Park, CA
Posts: 4,982
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
I checked the menu on my LG tv and it indicates this:

Channel Info: Digital 7-1
177.00MHz
SNR: -31dB
Signal Level: 78%
Under Manual Tuning it indicates Channel 7, DTV 7-1 KGO-HD

Channel Info: Digital 2-1
653.00MHz
SNR: -31dB
Signal Level: 77%
Under Manual Tuning it indicates Channel 44, DTV 2-1 KTVU-HD

So I guess I have a mixed bag with my rooftop antenna? Either way both stations are practically trouble-free. Now that I've retired, I do watch a little more daytime tv and have noticed the occasional pixelation during that time but evening viewing is trouble-free.

Both of your channels are coming from Sutro. KTVU on 44 is from Sutro, KTVU on 48 is from the south...

Bobby 

bobby94928 is offline  
post #15156 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 10:15 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Otto Pylot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 10,992
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1510 Post(s)
Liked: 937
^^^^^ thanks for the confirmation. To be honest, I don't pay a lot of attention to where my stations originate from. All I do is scan, they lock on, and I delete the stations I don't want. 30+ year old 78-element Winegard, 30'AGL with a rotor (that is really never used).
Otto Pylot is offline  
post #15157 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 11:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,344
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
Thanks, Larry,

Do you mean add a VHF antenna or get a better all in one? Suggestions?


bob
Either way. Since the 4228 is working well for UHF, I'd just add a small VHF antenna. Seems like they becoming more difficult to find though, so a new VHF-UHF antenna might be the way to go.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html
Live reception scans from my HD Home Run receivers: http://www.larrykenney.com/hdhr/
Photos and info on my antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html
Larry Kenney is offline  
post #15158 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 11:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Larry Kenney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,344
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post
I have always received 7 on it and when 12 (KNTV) was on Loma Prieta, a very long way from Rohnert Park, I received it as well.
Wow! It's amazing that you were able to receive KNTV from Loma Prieta with the 4228! I had to put up the 10 element VHF yagi and add an FM blocking unit to get it here in San Francisco. The 4228 I was using, also one of the originals, didn't get it at all. You must be located high on a hill.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html
Live reception scans from my HD Home Run receivers: http://www.larrykenney.com/hdhr/
Photos and info on my antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html
Larry Kenney is offline  
post #15159 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 11:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 2,986
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 570 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
Either way. Since the 4228 is working well for UHF, I'd just add a small VHF antenna. Seems like they becoming more difficult to find though, so a new VHF-UHF antenna might be the way to go.

Larry
The newer CM4228HD like I have will receive VHF-HI so RF 7 and RF 12 come in just fine from Sutro.

The older CM4228 can be modified simply by tying the screens together with instructions on the Web.

The CM4228HD has this fix installed at the factory but not the feed line one that is also listed on line.

So for getting VHF from Sutro another VHF antenna is not needed unless you want to get KRCB on RF 5 which will be in a different direction anyway.

SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
post #15160 of 15168 Old 05-19-2017, 04:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dr1394's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mizar 5
Posts: 3,398
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
The pilot is not visible if you were to view the signal in a 6MHz bandwidth. This is because the pilot appears as a CW signal but the modulation appears as noise so it goes up or down due to bandwidth. The pilot remains constant. You most often see spectrum analyzer traces of ATSC signals using a 100 KHz IF bandwidth. This lowers the noise enough to see the pilot above the data in the rest of the signal. Attached is a spectrum analyzer trace using a 1MHz bandwidth on KVIE and KXTV. The pilot signal disappears below the signal.

Chuck
Just FYI, the pilot power is 11.3 dB down from the average power level.

http://bts.ieee.org/images/files/DTV...v13C_clean.pdf

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
dr1394 is offline  
post #15161 of 15168 Old Yesterday, 11:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lifespeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,594
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 12
So KGO RF35 repeater is working again? Sure would be nice if they could keep it that way. My PC-based DVR (Emby) transcodes to a streaming-friendly format (MKV, .h264) in real time as it records. This integrates very well with the networked media-on-any-device setup, but the transcoding software sure hates it when the stream being transcoded chokes.

Lifespeed
lifespeed is offline  
post #15162 of 15168 Old Yesterday, 12:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 2,986
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 570 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
So KGO RF35 repeater is working again? Sure would be nice if they could keep it that way. My PC-based DVR (Emby) transcodes to a streaming-friendly format (MKV, .h264) in real time as it records. This integrates very well with the networked media-on-any-device setup, but the transcoding software sure hates it when the stream being transcoded chokes.
YES it does appear to be working:

Spoiler!


Toast0's chart CANNOT be trusted currently, I need to send him a message. He is playing with Missed_Packets and current has it wrong.

Ignore the "t", I was using my laptop wirelessly and they occur some times but not when I use all hard wired Ethernet connections.

SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
post #15163 of 15168 Old Today, 07:27 AM
Member
 
toast0's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Burbank, Santa Clara, CA (not southern california)
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
YES it does appear to be working:

Toast0's chart CANNOT be trusted currently, I need to send him a message. He is playing with Missed_Packets and current has it wrong.
I did a quick fix to cap the graph for missed packet at 1000, which is a lot more informative
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	rf35-2017-05-23.png
Views:	13
Size:	85.0 KB
ID:	2151794  
toast0 is offline  
post #15164 of 15168 Old Today, 08:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lifespeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,594
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by toast0 View Post
I did a quick fix to cap the graph for missed packet at 1000, which is a lot more informative
Very informative, that is a nice tool you have made available. The transmitter went from a constant, low level of errors to none. Except for the spike in errors around midnight, not sure what that is.

Lifespeed
lifespeed is offline  
post #15165 of 15168 Old Today, 04:42 PM
Member
 
gone hiking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South San Jose/Santa Teresa
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
So KGO RF35 repeater is working again? Sure would be nice if they could keep it that way. My PC-based DVR (Emby) transcodes to a streaming-friendly format (MKV, .h264) in real time as it records. This integrates very well with the networked media-on-any-device setup, but the transcoding software sure hates it when the stream being transcoded chokes.
Yep. I noticed that too and it still seems to be working today except for a period of at least a half hour around 2PM today when the signal dropped out and then came back. I hope that means they were doing some equipment upgrade/replacement. We'll see...
gone hiking is online now  
post #15166 of 15168 Old Today, 06:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 2,986
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 570 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by gone hiking View Post
Yep. I noticed that too and it still seems to be working today except for a period of at least a half hour around 2PM today when the signal dropped out and then came back. I hope that means they were doing some equipment upgrade/replacement. We'll see...
It looks good for the few minutes I looked at it (No Sequence Errors for ~ 4 minutes) 6:16 PM 5/23/2017.

I am having a hard time trying to understand how Toast0's chart can handle the wide range of sequence / missed packets counts.

The output must be 0-100 and the input may be three (3), thirty (30) or thirty thousand (30,000) errors.

That coupled with the time frame shown being the normal three days or three months or three years I just cannot get my head around the problem.

SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
post #15167 of 15168 Old Today, 10:06 PM
Member
 
gone hiking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South San Jose/Santa Teresa
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
It looks good for the few minutes I looked at it (No Sequence Errors for ~ 4 minutes) 6:16 PM 5/23/2017.

I am having a hard time trying to understand how Toast0's chart can handle the wide range of sequence / missed packets counts.

The output must be 0-100 and the input may be three (3), thirty (30) or thirty thousand (30,000) errors.

That coupled with the time frame shown being the normal three days or three months or three years I just cannot get my head around the problem.

SHF
35 went out again earlier this evening. And for a short time around 7pm it was back to the usual problem. But I was wrong about the signal dropping out before. This time while it was out, I looked at my TV's signal meter and it showed good strength and 100% signal quality like it usually does. And yet the channel pooped out like it had no signal. So it must be upstream of the 35 repeater. I've seen that before on KTVU's Mt Allison repeater occasionally. Very strange.
gone hiking is online now  
post #15168 of 15168 Old Today, 10:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SFischer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA 94087
Posts: 2,986
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 570 Post(s)
Liked: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by gone hiking View Post
35 went out again earlier this evening. And for a short time around 7pm it was back to the usual problem. But I was wrong about the signal dropping out before. This time while it was out, I looked at my TV's signal meter and it showed good strength and 100% signal quality like it usually does. And yet the channel pooped out like it had no signal. So it must be upstream of the 35 repeater. I've seen that before on KTVU's Mt Allison repeater occasionally. Very strange.
If the utilization goes to zero then there is nothing to transmit and the rest of the signals are normal, when the input was RF 7 from across the bay I saw that often. Now that it is normally fed by microwave that usually does not happen.

Toast0's chart samples are thirty (30) minutes apart so things may be happening that do not show up. The last message attributed to the KGO Station Engineer said they were changing the location of the RF 7 incoming antenna. They may be trying to find the best location for the antenna and thus RF 35 may not be usable for a while until they get it settled down and switch back to microwave input. Finding a useable RF 7 incoming antenna location may be very difficult considering the huge signals coming from the nearby transmitters and blocked line of sight to Sutro that they are trying to fix.

I suggest we not be bothered by it's outages for a few weeks and expect things to be much better for the long run. You must crack eggs to make a cake. Remember RF 35 likely is paid by the news department and they will ensure it gets made right. After all KTVU has a much harder problem, RF 48 may not exist in a few years but RF 35 will. Which news department will earn the most money in the future? KTVU is betting they will for sure even with the loss of RF 48.

SHF
SFischer1 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Local HDTV Info and Reception



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off