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post #15331 of 15379 Old 06-15-2017, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
Airplanes would affect some receiving antenna geographic locations and not others. If memory serves correctly, RF 35 had the unique characteristic of having acceptable SNR and symbol quality while still showing dropouts on screen. From this I concluded that KGO was transmitting garbage to begin with, it was not a signal strength or quality problem but rather further upstream.
RF 35 has had a problem for some reason that took them a long time to fix. That I think they have done so. That's what you described.

Plus problems when they have had when testing the RF 7 receiving antenna in different locations (And perhaps may have in the future). ~ 10 PM June 11, 2017 to ~ 9:30 AM June 12, 2017 is the last time.

The spikes that I see in Toast0's chart that appear and disappear are puzzling and landing airplanes at SJC are one possibility. If no planes are near when Toast0's HDHR does it's samples 30 minutes apart there is no problem. I do wonder if something local to his CM4228HD is causing a problem. Perhaps a sump pump that only runs on an erratic pattern.

You are perhaps not understanding the three (3) DIFFERENT problems that I am seeing in Toast0's charts and trying to lump them together.

Again, it's three (3) different problems affecting RF 35 chart. The first one you describe is likely gone.

SHF
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post #15332 of 15379 Old 06-15-2017, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Again, it's three (3) different problems affecting RF 35 chart. The first one you describe is likely gone.

SHF
The problem I described affected receivers in any location and happened for a long time. This I saw. Of course I do not see problems that may be related to Toast's specific location, and these are of limited interest to the group in general anyway. The dropouts that happened while they were doing OTA receive antenna tests serving their repeater were less prevalent. I probably could have seen them if I paid close attention, but I haven't watched it as closely as you.

So I think you are right, there were several problems, with the ones still occurring intermittently not being the same as the 5-month-long mess we all saw. Clearly you have a better idea about these RF 35 issues than I. Once it appeared the original problem was solved I thought that was the end of it. Some transmitter deficiencies remain, but I agree they are likely to be resolved and KGO seems to understand these better than the original issue.

We may be able to depend on RF 35 yet, things are looking up.

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post #15333 of 15379 Old 06-15-2017, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
...

We may be able to depend on RF 35 yet, things are looking up.
I realized that airplanes would affect other channels so I looked and found NO correlation in Toast0's charts.

The outage ~ 10 PM June 11, 2017 to ~ 9:30 AM June 12, 2017 I looked again and the utilization stayed at 99% so it was NOT a receive antenna problem. Why the Signal to Noise dropped may have been at the transmitter.

Remember that RF 35 is a weak signal compared with other transmitters on Mt. Allison. Google Earth can give you an overhead view and Larry's lists the stations there. The RF 7 receive antenna must have been moved or will be. Larry has posted information from KGO's station engineer several times.

So, I was wrong on both counts. It's like umpiring a baseball game while listing to Ragan doing the play by play from the teletype which stopped at one point and he had to make things up.

The problem you talked about showed up as a steady non-zero number of missed packets. Just change the starting date to 2017-05-10T17 http://ruka.org/~toast/atscdata/chart.php?c=35 and look to the left. The missed packets drops to zero and stays there.

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post #15334 of 15379 Old 06-15-2017, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gone hiking View Post
The testing is for RF7.

What's the signal strength and signal quality for RF 7? I guess it's unstable?

Chuck
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post #15335 of 15379 Old 06-15-2017, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
I realized that airplanes would affect other channels so I looked and found NO correlation in Toast0's charts.

The outage ~ 10 PM June 11, 2017 to ~ 9:30 AM June 12, 2017 I looked again and the utilization stayed at 99% so it was NOT a receive antenna problem. Why the Signal to Noise dropped may have been at the transmitter.
I'm currently suspecting my brother is a noise source on rf35 -- he was staying in the garage during that time frame.

I do see a lot of missed packets in my graphs for yesterday and today, even though signal strength and SNR are solid.

Airplane interference is possible -- I do samples for two channels in parallel, but it's always 7 and 35 together, and I'd expect them to experience airplanes differently. I've gotten an HD Homerun Connect, so I can try to do 4 channels in parallel, but I need to figure out how to get the missed packet stats from it first; Silicon Dust removed reporting of that in firmware after 20130328, but the connect wasn't released then, so I can't downgrade it that far; I think I need to actually request the stream and learn to process enough mpeg2ts to count missed packets, I think I also need to count utilization myself .
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post #15336 of 15379 Old 06-15-2017, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
If memory serves correctly, RF 35 had the unique characteristic of having acceptable SNR and symbol quality while still showing dropouts on screen. From this I concluded that KGO was transmitting garbage to begin with, it was not a signal strength or quality problem but rather further upstream.
Yep. That's what my screen pics show on my post earlier today. Here they are again.
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post #15337 of 15379 Old 06-15-2017, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
What's the signal strength and signal quality for RF 7? I guess it's unstable?

Chuck
Most of the time SS=52% - 58%, SQ=20%. At times they start going down and range all over the place.

Last edited by gone hiking; 06-16-2017 at 10:52 PM.
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post #15338 of 15379 Old 06-15-2017, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toast0 View Post
... I've gotten an HD Homerun Connect, so I can try to do 4 channels in parallel, but I need to figure out how to get the missed packet stats from it first; Silicon Dust removed reporting of that in firmware after 20130328, but the connect wasn't released then, so I can't downgrade it that far; I think I need to actually request the stream and learn to process enough mpeg2ts to count missed packets, I think I also need to count utilization myself .
They dropped Missed Packets? Utilization? Bummer.

My firmware appears to be 20150615 on my laptop and 20161119 on my HTPC and tuners.

The HDHomeRun Development Guide (20110518) still is all that is offered.

Current release: 20161117/20161119

The release for Windows 10 may be different.

The change logs do not indicate any later version. (One year and new models out?)

-----------------------------
Release 20140121:
All models: Improvements to diagnostic logging.

Release 20150604:, Release 20150615:
HDHR4/TC/CC/DC models: Improvements to diagnostic logging.

Release 20161107/20161107b:
HDHR4-2DT: Improve SNQ scaling.

Release 20161107/20161107b:
Remove sequence tracking.

As below is what you are using AFAIK, what is missing compared with the Dev Guide?

-----------------------------
More advanced information can be obtained by using the get debug command:
format: hdhomerun_config <device id> get /tuner<n>/debug
eg: hdhomerun_config FFFFFFFF get /tuner0/debug
Example output:
tun: ch=qam:33 lock=qam256 ss=84 snq=88 seq=100 dbg=22081-6930
dev: resync=0 overflow=0
ts: bps=38809216 ut=94 te=0 miss=0 crc=0
flt: bps=38809216
net: pps=0 err=0 stop=0

--------------------------

SHF
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post #15339 of 15379 Old 06-15-2017, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Remember that RF 35 is a weak signal compared with other transmitters on Mt. Allison.

SHF
It is weak, but for those of us in the south bay it is adequate. I am behind a hill, further hidden from the weak signal with a TVFool-predicted 22 dB noise margin and I still pull it in fine.

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post #15340 of 15379 Old 06-16-2017, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
And there it is. I need KRON, so will install a VHF antenna in about three (?) years. At least KGO RF 35 is no longer forcing the issue, was thinking about adding VHF now because they couldn't get their transmitter act together.

You don't have a VHF antenna? What are you using for RF 7? That 4 bay antenna shown in your avatar? Those antennas work a little up on RF 12 and 13 but are very poor on RF 7.

Chuck
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post #15341 of 15379 Old 06-16-2017, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
They dropped Missed Packets? Utilization? Bummer.

-----------------------------
More advanced information can be obtained by using the get debug command:
format: hdhomerun_config <device id> get /tuner<n>/debug
eg: hdhomerun_config FFFFFFFF get /tuner0/debug
Example output:
tun: ch=qam:33 lock=qam256 ss=84 snq=88 seq=100 dbg=22081-6930
dev: resync=0 overflow=0
ts: bps=38809216 ut=94 te=0 miss=0 crc=0
flt: bps=38809216
net: pps=0 err=0 stop=0

--------------------------

SHF
With the new connect (and the old one, if I upgrade the firmware), I get:

$ hdhomerun_config 104A0191 get /sys/hwmodel
HDHR4-2US
$ hdhomerun_config 104A0191 get /sys/version
20161117
$ hdhomerun_config 104A0191 get /tuner0/debug
tun: ch=auto:35 lock=8vsb:599000000 ss=70 snq=90 seq=100 dbg=-5600/-9977
dev: bps=19336928 resync=0 overflow=0
ts: bps=19336928 te=0 crc=0
net: pps=0 err=0 stop=0
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post #15342 of 15379 Old 06-16-2017, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
You don't have a VHF antenna? What are you using for RF 7? That 4 bay antenna shown in your avatar? Those antennas work a little up on RF 12 and 13 but are very poor on RF 7.

Chuck
I don't receive KGO RF 7 at all, I use their RF 35 repeater instead. I had been concerned about KGO's lack of response to RF 35 technical issues, although they seem to have a much better handle on it these days. ABC is a must-have for OTA TV, of course. When I put these antennae up 7 months ago there was not a compelling reason to install VHF, so I ended up with what you see in my avatar. If KRON VC 4 RF 38 goes off the air (apparently it was sold), their assigned post-repack RF 7 slot on Sutro may be fiction.

It is entirely possible the re-pack will move a desirable channel onto VHF, at which point I will have to change my antenna setup. The DB4e was originally aimed at Sutro, but could not always receive KPIX VC 5 RF 29 without dropouts. I suspected multipath so added a 91XG aimed at Sutro (KPIX comes in perfectly), while the DB4e points at Mt. Allison. This actually worked out well, as RF 35 comes in better using a direct-aimed bowtie antenna compared to 45 degrees off the side of the Yagi. The antennae are not combined, they each have a dedicated HDHR4-2US tuner. The tuners allow me to select which station is available per-antenna, so DVR-ing and channel surfing is seamless. The appropriate antenna is automatically tuned just by selecting the channel in Emby Theater.

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post #15343 of 15379 Old 06-16-2017, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
I don't receive KGO RF 7 at all, I use their RF 35 repeater instead. I had been concerned about KGO's lack of response to RF 35 technical issues, although they seem to have a much better handle on it these days. ABC is a must-have for OTA TV, of course. When I put these antennae up 7 months ago there was not a compelling reason to install VHF, so I ended up with what you see in my avatar. If KRON VC 4 RF 38 goes off the air (apparently it was sold), their assigned post-repack RF 7 slot on Sutro may be fiction.

It is entirely possible the re-pack will move a desirable channel onto VHF, at which point I will have to change my antenna setup.

The results of the 600MHz auction are known and Larry has them on his page. The repack is mostly set with a few complaints about assigned channel, with KKPX being the only one in the Bay Area I have seen. Between the Sacramento, San Francisco and Salinas markets all the high VHF channels have been assigned.

The latest FCC filing concerning KRON is here:

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...&fac_num=65526

It's highly unlikely KRON is going off the air. They would have taken advantage of the reverse auction to get more money than they got to move from UHF to high VHF. Stations are bought and sold all the time and they don't go off the air. From the filing it looks like KRON was part of a group of stations owned by one company.

Certainly you don't need VHF in the near future but I wouldn't wait 3 years either.

The fate of all low power stations is up in the air right now. There's no guarantee that KGO-LD will be able to remain on RF 35. My guess is that they will because there's been no change to KCRA on 35 so there should be no new interference issues.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 06-16-2017 at 03:54 PM.
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post #15344 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
This actually worked out well, as RF 35 comes in better using a direct-aimed bowtie antenna compared to 45 degrees off the side of the Yagi. The antennae are not combined, they each have a dedicated HDHR4-2US tuner. The tuners allow me to select which station is available per-antenna, so DVR-ing and channel surfing is seamless. The appropriate antenna is automatically tuned just by selecting the channel in Emby Theater.

I suspect the market is too small but it would be nice if there were regular TVs available that you could add tuners as plug-ins for extra cost for people who don't want to have to use a separate PC to run everything.

Chuck
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post #15345 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 04:20 PM
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KGO-LD Guide data (RF35)

I finally heard back from SchedulesDirect about the lack of KGOLD as a channel in the guide data for the bay area (KGODT has guide data, but not KGOLD). Here is what they said:

"The station is insisting to our upstream that they've been shutting everything down other than the main transmitter, so our upstream has been removing the "other" KGOs from the lineup because that's what the station says is the truth."

I guess KGO is the "problem" here in that they are broadcasting the same programming on two different RF channels, but with different station ID's, and only issuing guide data for one station ID? I have no idea what they mean by "shutting down". I do not think it means what I think it means (pardon the Inigo Montoya reference).

I'm glad I finally climbed up on the roof and installed an antenna that gets RF7. No more messing around.
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post #15346 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 04:53 PM
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Troubleshooting tests for reception issues for RF 7 (7.1) on LG TV, 75' from antenna through 1 splitter (at 25').


Baseline:
- Signal Strength=52% - 57%
- Signal Quality=20%. Note: Contrary to what I stated earlier, it is usually stable at 20%. My previous observations were from when the signal was less stable more often.

Test/Action and Results
Walked antenna rig on the roof around up to 6 or 7 feet in different directions.
No change.
Grounded the first splitter on the downlead.
No change.
Using AM radio, found excessive noise near power strip and Comcast cable and cable box. Unplugged power strip which powers everything except the TV.
No change.
Re-routed antenna cable directly to TV, bypassing both DVRs.
Maybe 1% or 2% increase in SS, but no change in SQ (still 20%).
Bypassed the antenna combiner to feed only VHF signal to TVs with and without preamp.
Without preamp: no change
With preamp: SS & SQ degraded/unstable
Using AM radio, found excessive noise near Camcast cable.
Need to call Comcast, but don't expect any help.
Re-route downlead away from Comcast cable where they enter house.
No change.
Walked the antenna from the chimney mount up to the ridge line of the roof.
SS improved to >70%. SQ=100% (“normal” levels), but all UHF stations significantly degraded.
Rotated the antenna 360° to check for errant interfering signals.
Nothing found, but rotating 10° 20° north improved SQ for RF 7 while RF12 was degraded.
Raised antenna about 5'.
Improved SS about 10% & SQ to 100%


Hopefully the RF7 mystery is solved! Ultimately, the best action will be to move the VHF antenna to the ridge line of the roof on its own mount. Need to confirm the test first, but for now it appears just raising it at least 5' and if turning about 10° to the north doesn't degrade RF12 too much, it will be satisfactory in the short term.
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post #15347 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haus123 View Post
...

"The station is insisting to our upstream that they've been shutting everything down other than the main transmitter,...
Well, they can shut down KGO VC 7 RF 35 but AFAIK they are not required to. The first we have heard about it here. They will get no money from the FCC for shutting it down.

Perhaps it is costing too much, the long drives from San Francisco (57 Miles, 1:18 Hours one way.) according to my Topo program plus the engineering effort to keep it going and to fix it.

I think it was paid by the KGO news department in their battle with KTVU news which will lose their translator on RF 48 but they have KICU VC 36 RF 36 (KTVU+) and have tripled the news programs offered.

Are there any on air announcements that they need to do for 30 days before shutting it off?.

SHF


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post #15348 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 06:01 PM
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Well, they can shut down KGO VC 7 RF 35 but AFAIK they are not required to. The first we have heard about it here. They will get no money from the FCC for shutting it down.
Yep - that's why I said I don't think it means what I think it means. To a layperson (me) it sounds like they are shutting down RF35, but I've scanned the forum and nobody said anything to that effect. This being my go-to place for info about OTA issues and changes, I am thinking it must mean something else or I'd have seen it here first.

Anyway, the strange thing is that I had guide data for KGOLD for a long time when my lousy attic antenna only picked up RF35. Then Sage announced that support for Zap2It was going away so we all had to switch to SchedulesDirect, and I lost KGOLD data. And yet I'm told SD supplied (or received) guide data to/from Zap2It, so I don't recall when all this changed, but it was in the last few months.

In case anyone finds this and needs help, the workaround in SageTV is to remap 35 (35-7-1) to KGODT, which will place the guide data for KGODT (7-7-1) alongnside the programming for 35-7-1. It works, but it's a bit hard to manage (IMO). Better solution is to find an antenna and placement -if possible -that gets RF7, and you're covered for KRON in the future.
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post #15349 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gone hiking View Post
Using AM radio, found excessive noise near Camcast cable.
Need to call Comcast, but don't expect any help.

Don't waste your time. Using an AM radio to troubleshoot possible VHF interference is not a valid method. It'll almost always be uncorrelated. You'll almost always hear noise on the AM band if you hold the radio very close to an electronic device. There's a big difference between hearing noise on 1 MHz and 177 MHz. An all band radio with the aircraft band listening on the AM mode can be useful in tracking down VHF noise sources.

Good to hear though that you did find something that improved your reception.

Chuck
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post #15350 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Are there any on air announcements that they need to do for 30 days before shutting it off?.

I think they're supposed to file a Silent STA with the FCC but I don't think there's any requirement for a low power station to notify viewers.

Chuck
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post #15351 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 06:40 PM
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You'll almost always hear noise on the AM band if you hold the radio very close to an electronic device.
That's true, but I'm hearing it very strongly from the cable itself at the other side of the house where is enters. Even along the ground outside where is comes up from the street! But as far as interference, it doesn't seem to matter anyway. As my testing illustrated, separating the 2 cables had no effect.

Still, the extra noise from the Camcast cable could be related to slower-than-advertised internet speeds, so when I feel like wasting an hour and getting aggravated by their customer service robots, I'll give them a call.
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post #15352 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gone hiking View Post
That's true, but I'm hearing it very strongly from the cable itself at the other side of the house where is enters. Even along the ground outside where is comes up from the street! But as far as interference, it doesn't seem to matter anyway. As my testing illustrated, separating the 2 cables had no effect.

Still, the extra noise from the Camcast cable could be related to slower-than-advertised internet speeds, so when I feel like wasting an hour and getting aggravated by their customer service robots, I'll give them a call.

What you're hearing is conducted noise, i.e. noise that is conducted from its source along a line and then radiated far from the source. You hear this on the AM broadcast band all the time driving under power lines. Often the source of the noise is a business or even a residence and the noise is conducted far from the source so it sounds like there's a long stretch of noisy power lines when they're not the problem. Noise on the ground shows you that a long ground wire is not an RF ground since it is radiating. It's unlikely that noise is causing slow internet speeds since conducted noise on the cable shield should not be reaching the center conductor.

Noise at higher frequencies tends not to conduct very far but mostly radiates right from the source. It's a lot easier to find this kind of noise.

There are no strong AM broadcast stations where I live so I hear a lot of noise on the AM band when I drive around. I've listened on the AM radio and the aircraft band at the same time. Noise on the AM band rarely correlates with noise on the aircraft band. There are locations that have had terrible noise on the AM band 24 hours a day forever yet VHF is silent.

Chuck
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post #15353 of 15379 Old 06-17-2017, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
If you aren't properly grounded this is definitely where you should start looking for (presumably) a signal-to-noise problem in your wiring. Drive a copper (or copper-plated steel) grounding rod into the earth underneath the antenna. Ground the mast to the rod.
What kind of clamp would you use to attach the grounding wire to the mast? I can't find anything other than plumbing pipe clamps. I do know it should be made of brass to help prevent electrolytic corrosion.

Last edited by gone hiking; 06-18-2017 at 11:03 AM.
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post #15354 of 15379 Old 06-18-2017, 09:23 AM
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I think they're supposed to file a Silent STA with the FCC but I don't think there's any requirement for a low power station to notify viewers.

Chuck
You'd think they would want to, though. Enough people probably use RF35 that just shutting it off without warning would frustrate a lot of viewers. Anybody who installed a UHF only antenna or just doesn't have the equipment to get RF7 would just lose ABC.

I wonder if "shutting down" relates to the recent change (?) from a microwave link to an antenna pointed at Sutro? I recall reading here a few weeks ago about changes being made on Mt. Allison. Still, they should be providing guide data for both station IDs the same way KTVU does on RF44 and RF48. Never had a problem there; in fact for awhile I had both in my lineup and I was recording in parallel because reception could get spotty on either one from time to time.
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post #15355 of 15379 Old 06-19-2017, 11:35 AM
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What kind of clamp would you use to attach the grounding wire to the mast? I can't find anything other than plumbing pipe clamps. I do know it should be made of brass to help prevent electrolytic corrosion.
I like the brass clamps mean to ground a wire to your plumbing.

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post #15356 of 15379 Old 06-19-2017, 11:48 AM
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I suspect the market is too small but it would be nice if there were regular TVs available that you could add tuners as plug-ins for extra cost for people who don't want to have to use a separate PC to run everything.

Chuck
If you're ethically opposed to PC involvement in your media, your Silicondust Connect tuner (at least the newer HDHR4-2US) can stream over Ethernet to your DLNA-capable TV. I guess wireless network might work also, but I prefer to hard-wire devices that don't move, if for no other reason than it frees up bandwidth for all the other wireless devices. Yes, I have a family.

That said, there are many ways to skin a cat, and not all DLNA implementations on TVs are created equal. Running Emby server on a network-connected PC you already have in your house introduces a number of advantages. These include the ability to DVR broadcast television, as well as store and playback other types of media and streaming. At the TV end there is DLNA (which Emby supports), or one can connect a streaming device supported by Emby (nVidia Shield is a more capable, popular one). Or there are NUC computers that are small, relatively inexpensive, and include all the capability of a desktop PC. Really makes that TV into something more.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/comput...-need-to-know/

https://www.howtogeek.com/231978/htg...d-you-get-one/

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post #15357 of 15379 Old 06-19-2017, 03:32 PM
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You'd think they would want to, though. Enough people probably use RF35 that just shutting it off without warning would frustrate a lot of viewers.

Here's a request for a Silent STA by an LP station that just showed up today:

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...a2a65&goBack=N

Click on the PDF link at the bottom to read what the FCC has to say about it. No mention of viewer notification.

KDTV-CD in the North Bay filed today for a construction permit for their repack channel 21. I believe they're the first to do so in the Bay Area. All stations moving have to file by July 12. I'm curious what KRCB is going to request for power and an antenna.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 06-19-2017 at 03:41 PM.
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post #15358 of 15379 Old 06-19-2017, 04:59 PM
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Here's a request for a Silent STA by an LP station that just showed up today:
...
Chuck
You may have missed the "FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS" who wants to experiment on RF 29 in SACRAMENTO.

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...d237e&goBack=N

Some people have a problem receiving KPIX, are there other locations they are trying "Experimental" stations?

SHF
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post #15359 of 15379 Old 06-19-2017, 05:33 PM
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Some people have a problem receiving KPIX, are there other locations they are trying "Experimental" stations?

SHF
Wow! Count me as one of those who had difficulty with KPIX. My situation is not ideal with a hill one-edging Sutro tower. I found KPIX to be the lone holdout for perfect reception of Sutro channels, causing me to exchange a broad-beam bowtie for a more directional Yagi.

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post #15360 of 15379 Old 06-19-2017, 05:54 PM
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^^^^ wow fer sure. I can't believe the trouble you're having with the Sutro stations. I guess what they say about location is true.
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