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post #15751 of 15774 Old 09-08-2017, 02:45 PM
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I noticed a particularly strong signal on KFTY this afternoon (SNR=25dB) but all the sub channels are stuttering badly. Same goes for KTVJ. Haven't heard from Keith for awhile.

Chuck
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post #15752 of 15774 Old 09-08-2017, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Turning this over in my head a bit, what if they did something like this:

22-1/60-2 "KRCB"
22-2/60-1 "KUCB"
22-3/60-3 Create
22-4/60-4 NHK World
22-5/60-5 France24

And then put the KRCB transmitter on Mount St. Helena to reduce the overlap between the two and cover more people?

- Trip
I Have trouble understanding how the 900# Gorilla (KQED Inc.) would accept another transmitter on Sutro with PBS programming.

When KQED took over KTEH they had to do some fast talking to PBS saying that they were not going to change the PBS programming on KTEH.

KQED is in the best class paying to broadcast the new programs first. Then there is second class which broadcasts delayed by several weeks the same programs, KQED+ (Not in HD).

I think that KRCB is in class four or lower judging on the delay from the first showing on KQED in HD.

KRCB has other programming not PBS programming and one stream the they create (@Create) that may be on other PBS stations across the USA.

SHF
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post #15753 of 15774 Old 09-09-2017, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbandscanner View Post
Thank you all for the advice on antenna testing (or not).

It's been immensely helpful and I'm having a re-think about the way I tackle this.

I think reviews have to be part of this, but perhaps I can avoid the "best" part and just discuss what kind of situation they are more suited for and talk about the quality etc.

I'm going to attempt to get plots from antenna makers.
If you want to discuss which antennas are best suited to a specific situation, you are entering the goodness, bestest, gain zone. The best antenna at a specific location is one that yields the desired results. Here, I've seen a DB2 be totally outclassed by a flat panel. The DB2 is the higher gain antenna. I've seen rabbit ears fail on VHF to a flat panel UHF antenna as well. One poster here, with a beautiful true line of sight view of Sutro Tower, was considered to be in multipath hell. Nothing worked. I'm sort of partial to the old classic bowtie indoors for UHF and strong VHF. It's cheap, and not a bad antenna to start with. Antenna reception patterns are already available here I believe. Check it out.
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post #15754 of 15774 Old 09-09-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
KRCB has other programming not PBS programming and one stream the they create (@Create) that may be on other PBS stations across the USA.
If you're talking about Create TV, that's distributed by American Public Television out of Boston.

https://www.createtv.com/about/

Create does carry some PBS shows, but most of its content is from other producers. It's carried on several dozen public television stations around the country.

https://www.createtv.com/locate/
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post #15755 of 15774 Old 09-09-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wintertime View Post
If you're talking about Create TV, that's distributed by American Public Television out of Boston.
OK, what I read somewhere is bad.

SHF
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post #15756 of 15774 Old 09-10-2017, 06:40 AM
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Create appears on about 236 stations nationwide covering about 79% of the nations TVHHs, according to our ever popular RabbitEars.info.

Will the last subscriber leaving Dish Network please turn off the satellite.
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post #15757 of 15774 Old 09-10-2017, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by rdvegas View Post
Create appears on about 236 stations nationwide covering about 79% of the nations TVHHs, according to our ever popular RabbitEars.info.
Interesting. That's about 140 more stations than Create's own website shows.
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post #15758 of 15774 Old 09-10-2017, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wintertime View Post
Interesting. That's about 140 more stations than Create's own website shows.
Even though South Carolina ETV has 11 stations, only one is shown on the Create website for the entire state. Rinse and repeat.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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post #15759 of 15774 Old 09-10-2017, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by maxreactance View Post
Most of what you've heard in response is correct, but I'll stress it even more so.

You are falling into the trap of thinking there is such as thing as the "gooder" antenna. By and large, ALL antennas are of about the same "quality" or "goodness".

The idea of a "gooder" antenna is something promoted by the "antenna industry", such as it is. It is also a hold-over concept from the analog TV days, and ham/shortwave radio.

For analog TV, people went with increasingly large directional antennas to get the best signal to noise ratio and most multi-path rejection to have the best possible picture, because with analog, THE SIGNAL WAS THE PICTURE. Then they added rotors to re-position their highly directional antennas towards each transmitter for the channel they were tuning to.

Then they just gave up and went with cable, because there was ALWAYS some multi-path (even if only sometimes, like when a plane flew over), and ALWAYS some noise in the signal (or more correctly, not enough signal in the noise), and a lot of "interference". Cable virtually eliminates all of those problems, "perfect" picture for a price...

Now, with digital, a little (or even more than a little) noise in the signal (or vice versa) has no impact on picture quality. As long as the "snow" you used to see in analog TV doesn't have really large "flakes", you might as well have cable with your "digital" antenna. YOU GET A PERFECT PICTURE...FOR FREE!!!!!!!

That's the good news. That's also the end of the good news.

With the old 8VSB "AM" modulation scheme used in US broadcast TV, common "interference" of all sorts will completely destroy your ability to see any picture at all. This is because your tuner can't distinguish between the digital signal "payload" and the interference.

There is virtually no way an antenna of any level of "goodness" can eliminate all of the common types of interference. When they occur, you will see your "signal strength" and "signal to noise ratio" drop to zero, and a blank screen, after maybe a transition through a highly-pixelated mess of a screen.

Most of this interference was just annoying in the analog TV days, for digital, in the US, IT IS FATAL.

As a practical matter, it is not so much the antenna you use, but where you put it, and what happens in the immediate surroundings at various times.

People in this forum get VERY angry with me because after "testing" many different antennas, I found I got the most digital channels most reliably using a homemade antenna consisting of coat-hanger wire and some sheet metal. The "bestest" antenna I had (a multi-$hundred item) was only about 5% worse than the homemade antenna, but it was consistently worse. Conversely, the homemade antenna was very INEFFECTIVE for analog TV, probably 75% "worse". People who believe in antenna "goodness" probably are conflating what happens with the same antenna for analog versus digital TV.

Soooo...I've already done the tests. I also was forced to learn a lot about antenna theory (as well as transmission line theory and impedance and yes the "imaginary" portion of impedance known as "reactance"), and let me tell you, THE THEORY IS THE RESULT.

You don't really have to "test" antennas, if the antenna makers are kind enough to supply "polar" and "azimuth" and frequency plots of their products "radiation pattern" (some do, most don't, a lot of this stuff can be calculated with software and general knowledge of antenna theory).

Then the question will be: how will any particular antenna with particular characteristics operate in a particular environment? Unforturnately, this is virtually impossible to determine EXCEPT by testing, and each test will ONLY BE VALID FOR THAT PARTICULAR ENVIRONMENT, YOU CAN'T GENERALIZE THE RESULTS, WHAT WORKS FOR ONE TEST ENVIRONMENT MAY BE A DISASTER FOR ANOTHER. (This is also why antenna makers don't like to conduct "range" tests, because they don't necessarily correlate to real-world "performance".)

But if some publication that is hoping for antenna advertising is paying you for an article about these tests, have at it...

--
max
How many hours did you spend googling that copy pasta drivel?

Here's a CLUE...

EACH location has it's own set of circumstances and environmental challenges, TESTING at the actual site with different antennas is how one determines which antenna works best for their viewing needs.

You think One Size Fits All?

So, All Knowing One, I have a Radioshack 15-2160 Antenna mounted 8 Feet AGL and here's my plot... http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a4fc5aabf903

How many stations do I receive reliably and consistently with an unbalanced 3 Way Splitter going to a Homeworx HW-180PVR, a DirecTV HR20-100 and an ancient RCA RPTV HD set?

Get back to me. Oh and I hope you'll be able to tell me which specific channels I can and can not receive reliably.

There's no one size fits all when it comes to OTA reception...
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post #15760 of 15774 Old 09-12-2017, 08:30 AM
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This is the best example of "arguing in violent agreement" that I've seen in quite a while.
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post #15761 of 15774 Old 09-12-2017, 10:42 AM
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Fortunately for San Franciscans, they're served by a citywide lightning rod. :-)

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/65/61/05.../1024x1024.jpg

From this SFGate article:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/l...a-12191403.php
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post #15762 of 15774 Old 09-14-2017, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
The deadline for all eligible stations was pushed back by a week due to the unplanned LMS outage over Labor Day weekend. So the filings are now due on 9/15.

I shouldn't comment on station-specific questions like that.

- Trip

Down to a little more than 1 day and nothing from KKPX. I suggested they could move to Sutro Tower as KTNC once considered doing. I wonder if there's another possibility for them? Stay on Mt. San Bruno and pay the land mobile stations on San Bruno to move to another location? If that's possible then it might be easier and cheaper than moving to Sutro Tower.

Chuck
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post #15763 of 15774 Old 09-15-2017, 03:46 PM
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KKPX filed for a Major Modification late today to move to channel 33 instead of channel 14. This is not yet finalized as there certainly would be interference issues with KTXL moving to 33 in Walnut Grove and perhaps with KDJT-CD staying on 33 on Fremont Peak. If you're interested in this you can read what they did file:

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...442f7&goBack=N

Look at the KKPX Extension Request at the end of the filing.

It is certainly unclear to me as to how his might work. I could see that KKPX and KDJT-CD might be able to co-exist but KTXL would have to move.

Could KTXL move to 14? Is there land mobile in Walnut Grove? I don't know.

In the analog days KDTV was on 14 from their Fremont location with no apparent land mobile issues. Why couldn't KDTV move to 14 from their assigned 20 and KKPX move to 20? What am I missing?

I guess this is all to be resolved at some future unspecified date.

Chuck
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post #15764 of 15774 Old 09-16-2017, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
KKPX filed for a Major Modification late today to move to channel 33 instead of channel 14. This is not yet finalized as there certainly would be interference issues with KTXL moving to 33 in Walnut Grove and perhaps with KDJT-CD staying on 33 on Fremont Peak. If you're interested in this you can read what they did file:

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...442f7&goBack=N
...

Chuck
I finally found a way to look at PDFs.

The FCC itself suggested 33 to ION and said that two channel swaps were necessary in adjacent markets which ION is looking at. The FCC also appeared to agree that they goofed in assigning RF 14 in S.F. Bay in that it had failed before here.

So, KCSM lost millions in not going off the air and freeing up a non RF 14 channel for ION.

SHF
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post #15765 of 15774 Old 09-17-2017, 08:51 AM
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Channel 14 is open now in the Sacramento area and if KKPX ends up on 33 that will leave channel 14 open in the Bay Area. KDTV analog used channel 14 from the Fremont site for years without a land mobile problem. There must be transmitter sites from where channel 14 is useable. KTNC used channel 14 at 12 KW for the entire time is was on the air. Sounds like an opportunity for some low power station to grab a UHF channel. Someone will figure it out. Available UHF spectrum is too tempting to sit idle.

Chuck
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post #15766 of 15774 Old 09-17-2017, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
... There must be transmitter sites from where channel 14 is useable.
...

Chuck
IMHO RF 14 should be retired nationwide until ALL Land Mobile is retired. There is a plan but the money is not showing up, after many years.

Even a new tower may develop a rusty joint, likely many and may just too hard to find.

I have many books listing the repeaters all across the USA and few have gone silent.

These days if a new tower is put up Cell antennas appear and land mobile also.

The first internet picture of my childhood home showed a tall tower changing the image I had in my mind. FM radio, no, just cell antennas. It must have land mobile also as the tower site is so attractive. "Beautiful Village" no more is Belleville, WI.

SHF
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post #15767 of 15774 Old 09-17-2017, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
KDTV analog used channel 14 from the Fremont site for years without a land mobile problem. There must be transmitter sites from where channel 14 is useable. KTNC used channel 14 at 12 KW for the entire time is was on the air.
Chuck
Before that, ... KDTV analog 14 was on Mt. San Bruno.
The change to the Fremont site, I'll guess was around 1989

All I remember then, was one day the station developed a ghost problem. Similar to ghosts on KNTV from Loma Prieta with no antenna pointed to Loma Prieta.
So they switched sites then.
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post #15768 of 15774 Old 09-18-2017, 08:20 AM
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Before that, ... KDTV analog 14 was on Mt. San Bruno.
The change to the Fremont site, I'll guess was around 1989

All I remember then, was one day the station developed a ghost problem. Similar to ghosts on KNTV from Loma Prieta with no antenna pointed to Loma Prieta.
So they switched sites then.

According to Wikipedia it was 1979. From my memory: KDTV started out on channel 60 and KCSM was on 14 transmitting from the college. KDTV made a deal with KCSM to give them all their color equipment & transmitter site (KCSM was B&W only) to swap channels. Apparently lower UHF was more desirable back then. Wikipedia says KDTV was located on Mission Peak but that is incorrect. They went to Monument Peak. There's never been any transmitters on Mission Peak.
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post #15769 of 15774 Old 09-21-2017, 10:54 AM
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What happened to KCNS? I don't see any sub channel on KCNS listed as KCNS. KTNC is the .1 sub channel. Comet is listed as .2 but it's not there. NTD is showing on .3.

Chuck
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post #15770 of 15774 Old 09-21-2017, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
What happened to KCNS? I don't see any sub channel on KCNS listed as KCNS. KTNC is the .1 sub channel. Comet is listed as .2 but it's not there. NTD is showing on .3.

Chuck
It has been that way for quite some time. ~ 3.5 Years perhaps.

LARRY has moved KTNC to a separate line with VC 42.1. "Informercials" is the RIGHT description. HUH???



Sorry for the big picture, Vista Paint works different.

SHF
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File Type: jpg KCNS-1.jpg (279.8 KB, 73 views)

Last edited by SFischer1; 09-21-2017 at 04:46 PM.
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post #15771 of 15774 Old 09-21-2017, 05:09 PM
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"Charge!"

"Charge!" coming to VC 38.6 RF 39.

But "Estrella TV" appears to be gone from VC 42.1 RF 39.

Before KTNC went off the air the "Paid Programming" had started, I thought that it was just temporary but it has continued.

I now declare null and void all my comments about "Estrella TV" in the bay area.

Why they failed to follow KTNC to KCNS is puzzling, they AFAIK was the programming on KTNC RF 39.

SHF
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post #15772 of 15774 Old 09-21-2017, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
It has been that way for quite some time. ~ 3.5 Years perhaps.

I'm not seeing anything like you're seeing because the channel scanning on my Sony TV is really messed up. It just can't handle two stations on the same real channel. I rescanned pointed at SF and the added channels pointed to Walnut Grove and everything was fine. No duplicate channels. KCNS looked just like yours. Then I added channels pointed to Salinas where they have channels 38 and 39. After that KCNS VC 38 disappeared and was replaced by nothing. Entering 39 pointed to SF shows KCNS sub channels but in a different order and missing some of them. 39.1 is KTNC, 39.2 is Comet except Comet isn't there and 39.3 is NTD. SBN isn't there at all.

You would think Sony could get something as basic as channel scanning right but I guess not.

Chuck
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post #15773 of 15774 Old 09-21-2017, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
...

You would think Sony could get something as basic as channel scanning right but I guess not.

Chuck
My SONY did just fine with a full scan.

EDIT:
I got four (4) of VC 2 streams and three (3) of VC 7 streams.

But then I am not ~ 120 miles away from two+ markets with a ~ 70' tower trying to combine duplicates.

When I saw English Ad's on 42.1 I said something was wrong so I did a full scan. Same result.

A bunch of surfing came up with "Paid Programming" on 42.1 so Larry's list was correct.

Has "Estrella" given up with the S.F Bay area?

SHF

Last edited by SFischer1; 09-21-2017 at 07:02 PM.
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post #15774 of 15774 Old Yesterday, 12:56 AM
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I don't know if KTNC dropped Estrella, or if Estrella dropped KTNC, but the station switched to Informercials while they were still transmitting on channel 14. When they turned off their transmitter and started using KCNS for their programming service, the informercials continued.

On all of my receivers KTNC shows up at VC 42.1 RF 39.3.

On the scan list from my HD Home Run receiver I receive the following for KCNS 39:
SCANNING: 623000000 (us-bcast:39)
LOCK: 8vsb (ss=85 snq=69 seq=100)
TSID: 0x0189
PROGRAM 1: 38.1 SBN
PROGRAM 2: 38.2 Sino TV
PROGRAM 3: 42.1 KTNC
PROGRAM 5: 38.5 NTD
PROGRAM 6: 38.3 VIETV

Channel 42 shows the information for KAXT.

This is what I have on my transmitter channel listing:

39.1 38.1 32.1 KCNS SBN San Francisco Sutro Tower 1000 1679 H
39.2 38.2 32.2 Sino TV
39.3 42.1 32.3 KTNC Sharing channel
39.5 38.5 32.5 NTD-TV
39.6 38.3 32.6 VieTV

For the listing by Virtual Channel I show:

38.1 39.1 32.1 KCNS SBN San Francisco Sutro Tower 1000 1679 H
38.2 39.2 32.2 Sino TV
38.3 39.6 32.6 VieTV
38.4 39.3 32.3 blank
38.5 39.5 32.5 NTD-TV

and

42.1 39.3 0 KTNC Informercials Concord Sutro Tower 1000 1679 Share with KCNS

I think I'm showing the information correctly. If anyone thinks I should show channel sharing differently, please speak up. We're going to be seeing a lot of it in the months to come.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html
Live reception scans from my HD Home Run receivers: http://www.larrykenney.com/hdhr/
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