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San Francisco, CA - OTA

2M views 20K replies 1K participants last post by  jamesm113 
#1 ·
I'm thinking of upgrading to an HDTV and have some questions for those getting OTA HD in the Bay Area.


I live in Berkeley and it looks like while I get most of my networks from SF, I need to also point toward San Jose, 57 miles away, to get NBC. I've been looking at the Channel Master antennaes, but I can't tell if you have one station in the blue range and the rest in the green or yellow ranges, whether you can just point your directional antennae at the blue and pick everything else up off the rest of the antennae, or whether you'd need two directionals or one that can point in two directions.


Also, on antennaeweb, it has a column that's supposed to read "live now" for digital channels that are being broadcast, yet none of the bay area channels say "live now." Most are blank. I take it for granted that the digital broadcasts are available right? You can't get HDTV from an analog broadcast, can you, and I know that's available OTA. Also, I assume that all the digital channels are UHF, so I need to buy the antennae that can reach 60 miles on UHF to get NBC, don't I?


If I go the HD route, I'll be using Directv plus OTA, so I will need to get all the networks in HD to really make the investment worthwhile (as directv will give me either none, or only CBS HD). I'd appreciate if anyone in Berkeley, Oakland, Albany, etc. can sound off on their OTA experiences.


Thanks for the input.

UPDATE: I was asked to add the info below to my post. I now live in a hilly area in Oakland and can't get OTA reception any more. Too bad for me.


Viewers in the San Francisco Bay Area will find the following sites very useful for finding local digital stations:


Bay Area DTV - HDTV Channel List - http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html


FCC DTV Reception Maps - http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/


Locate TV stations available at your address and compute expected signal strength and directions -
http://www.tvfool.com/
 
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#11,281 ·
KDTS RF 8, Virtual 52, Daystar TV from Mt. Diablo, is back on the air. It looks a lot more stable, and it doesn't have "BOB-4" supered across the center. :)

Larry
 
#11,283 ·
Noting that the new KEXT 27 is carrying Tokyo TV explains why KCNS dropped it from channel 38.4 a week or so ago.

This was supposed to be the Secondary Distribution Transmitter for KEXT. Is their main transmitter on the air from Mt. Oso?

Larry
 
#11,284 ·
Noting that the new KEXT 27 is carrying Tokyo TV explains why KCNS dropped it from channel 38.4 a week or so ago.

This was supposed to be the Secondary Distribution Transmitter for KEXT. Is their main transmitter on the air from Mt. Oso?

Larry

KEXT filed an STA a couple months ago to take KEXT 27 analog off the air saying they needed to do that to build the channel 20 digital facility. Of course that makes no sense since they're two different locations but what else is new for LPTV? ;)

KEXT is not on the air in any form from Mt. Oso. They have a permit for a digital station on RF 27 from Mt. Oso but they've had that permit for years and never built it. They built the RF 20 facility in just a few months so it's not that they couldn't do it if they wanted to. My impression from the STA is that KEXT on Mt. Oso is gone for good. Maybe Trip has some inside information on that.

Chuck
 
#11,285 ·
Nope, their antenna is not high enough to get over the mountains. I can see that it is there, but the SNR is terrible.

Looks like KEXT and the KGO translator are on the same tower. It is much lower than the nearby KDTV/KSTS tower. You must be on the east side of the valley to not have LOS to the top of those hills. KEXT should have identical coverage to KGO 35 except 5 dB weaker due to lower power.

Chuck
 
#11,286 ·
Anyone in the South Bay should be able to see it.

Chuck
not true, unfortunately. IIRC this was discussed in depth after KGO-LD first started broadcasting.

some parts of san jose are 2 edge to mt. allison, so low power stations from there are a no go.

i read this thread this morning and got KEXT to scan in and briefly got some pixelated reception, but that was very short lived. which is going to stink, b/c my girls really like the E/I show they air weekend mornings.
 
#11,287 ·
not true, unfortunately. IIRC this was discussed in depth after KGO-LD first started broadcasting.

some parts of san jose are 2 edge to mt. allison, so low power stations from there are a no go.

i read this thread this morning and got KEXT to scan in and briefly got some pixelated reception, but that was very short lived. which is going to stink, b/c my girls really like the E/I show they air weekend mornings.

If a 2 edge path meant you couldn't receive a station then I wouldn't be able to receive most of the stations I do here. All my local stations in Walnut Grove are 2 edges and 54 miles away. KBTV, now on a clear channel, is 2 edges, 58 miles away, only 12 KW and nearly 100% reception. KDTV and KSTS are 2 edges 90 miles away, 6 and 4.5 KW ERP respectively and essentially 100% reception.

It's possible that some locations are down in such a hole that even a 1 edge path is impossible but that's the exception in south bay. The vast majority should have no problem at all.

I've attached an image from Google Earth with the transmitter overlay for KGO RF 35. KGO's location is labeled in the upper left. KEXT RF 20 is not available but would be slightly worse. I outlined three areas in red that look like reception would be difficult or impossible. Unless you live in one of those areas you should be able to receive KEXT. If you can't then you need a better antenna. ;)

Chuck
 

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#11,288 ·
If a 2 edge path meant you couldn't receive a station then I wouldn't be able to receive most of the stations I do here. All my local stations in Walnut Grove are 2 edges and 54 miles away. KBTV, now on a clear channel, is 2 edges, 58 miles away, only 12 KW and nearly 100% reception. KDTV and KSTS are 2 edges 90 miles away, 6 and 4.5 KW ERP respectively and essentially 100% reception.

It's possible that some locations are down in such a hole that even a 1 edge path is impossible but that's the exception in south bay. The vast majority should have no problem at all.

I've attached an image from Google Earth with the transmitter overlay for KGO RF 35. KGO's location is labeled in the upper left. KEXT RF 20 is not available but would be slightly worse. I outlined three areas in red that look like reception would be difficult or impossible. Unless you live in one of those areas you should be able to receive KEXT. If you can't then you need a better antenna. ;)

Chuck

the areas outlined stretch from evergreen, basking ridge, silver creek, parkway lakes and coyote, sections of new almaden and almaden valley and communication hill. so not exactly urban areas, but for prespective, there are still probably more people who live in those areas than live in all of calaveras county. in other words, not an insignificant number at all.

i do have good antennas, but i cant make them go in two directions at once, or use a rotor.
 
#11,289 ·
I made an animated gif from Google Earth images with the transmitter overlays for KCRA, KVIE, KXTV, KOVR, KSPX, KMAX, KTXL and KQCA at my location. "55' Tower" is where my antennas are located. I added text to each image with the station, RF channel number and the noise margin I measured under nominal conditions. You can see how poor my location is. Some of the overlays don't show any color at all at the antennas. The strongest stations are magenta, representing the weakest signal used in the overlays. If I can receive stations with those noise margins then others should be able to receive stations under similar conditions using the proper antennas.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/2fzy2xw845ez14t/GE-Xmtr-Overlays.gif?dl=0

Chuck
 
#11,290 ·
As someone that has been watching Tokyo TV on Sunday nights for their Japanese historical dramas since they came on the air on 38.4 and years ago on Channel 26, both digital and analog, I was disappointed that of all the locations
they could have picked to be transmit from they would pick this one as it is the one that I cannot get at all here in the hills of San Mateo. And since I have Dish TV and will not switch to Comcast under any circumstance I am out of luck. At least for the near future.
Of course if KQSL in Fort Bragg can get on Dish TV throughout the Bay Area, then
with good lawyers Tokyo TV should be able to as well. Though being a Low Power station may make it more difficult to do.
 
#11,291 ·
the areas outlined stretch from evergreen, basking ridge, silver creek, parkway lakes and coyote, sections of new almaden and almaden valley and communication hill. so not exactly urban areas, but for prespective, there are still probably more people who live in those areas than live in all of calaveras county. in other words, not an insignificant number at all.
I doubt that 55,000 people live in those 3 areas but I don't know what that has to do with anything. :confused: Compared to the population covered by KEXT in the west, east and south bay regions, those three areas are insignificant.


i do have good antennas, but i cant make them go in two directions at once, or use a rotor.
Okay. So you probably could receive the station if you were willing to point at it. There are only 4 stations I can receive not pointing at them and even those have their off-pointing limits. My biggest frustration in trying to help people who come on these forums with reception problems is finding out that their problems are often self-inflicted. The stations can be received but they are unwilling to do what is required in their situation to receive the stations they want.

Chuck
 
#11,292 ·
As someone that has been watching Tokyo TV on Sunday nights for their Japanese historical dramas since they came on the air on 38.4 and years ago on Channel 26, both digital and analog, I was disappointed that of all the locations they could have picked to be transmit from they would pick this one as it is the one that I cannot get at all here in the hills of San Mateo.
Could you post a link to your TV Fool report so we can see what's going on? You'll have to modify it like "tvfool dot com" because you have
 
#11,293 ·
I doubt that 55,000 people live in those 3 areas but I don't know what that has to do with anything. :confused: Compared to the population covered by KEXT in the west, east and south bay regions, those three areas are insignificant.




Okay. So you probably could receive the station if you were willing to point at it. There are only 4 stations I can receive not pointing at them and even those have their off-pointing limits. My biggest frustration in trying to help people who come on these forums with reception problems is finding out that their problems are often self-inflicted. The stations can be received but they are unwilling to do what is required in their situation to receive the stations they want.

Chuck
sutro can vary greatly since signals travel a good distance over water to get to me, but the signals from allison have very little variance in strength

my experience with trying to receive KGO-LD makes me think if i wanted to fine tune my 91xg to mt allison, I could possibly get KEXT to where it would hover on either side of the reception "cliff". but losing the sutro stations wouldn't be worth it.




tvfool really misses on their guess-timate for signals from fremont peak, so it wouldn't surprise a bit if actual numbers from mt allison are lower as well.
 
#11,294 ·
TVFool authors are fools

We need to tell the TVFool authors that something needs to be changed.

Too many people are not pasting the link.

Perhaps something like the words I typed a while ago, "Pasting an image of your TVFool results is not the same as posting the link because there is additional data available by clicking on links which of course cannot be done on an image".

"If you would like to share these results with others" is too weak IMHO.

SHF
 
#11,295 ·
tvfool really misses on their guess-timate for signals from fremont peak, so it wouldn't surprise a bit if actual numbers from mt allison are lower as well.
TV Fool is over predicting signals from Fremont Peak? KSBW is the only station on your report from Fremont Peak with a decent signal. Can you not receive KSBW if you point at it? The next Fremont Peak station is way down in the red.

You don't have any digital stations that are LOS. K02QX and KBKF are not on the air and K46LG is on Fremont Peak, not on the Santa Cruz mountains where TV Fool thinks it is. With 2 edge paths and 52 miles to Sutro tower I doubt that it's water causing your problems. It's much more likely plain old inversions.

I also have 2 edges and 54 miles to Walnut Grove and your predictions are far stronger than mine. I've found TV Fool to be overly pessimistic if anything on weak signals. Attached is my list where I've added reception ratings to the stations. Everything in the gray region should not be received but that is not even close to reality. I even had to list a bunch of stations that didn't even make my list. :)

I was reading an old report on the original reception models and they mentioned that the predictions took into account terrain but not the type surface. A surface covered by trees is a lot different than a surface with nothing but soil and rock. I'm sure TV Fool doesn't taken into account the type of surface.

Chuck
 

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#11,296 ·
TV Fool is over predicting signals from Fremont Peak? KSBW is the only station on your report from Fremont Peak with a decent signal. Can you not receive KSBW if you point at it? The next Fremont Peak station is way down in the red.

You don't have any digital stations that are LOS. K02QX and KBKF are not on the air and K46LG is on Fremont Peak, not on the Santa Cruz mountains where TV Fool thinks it is. With 2 edge paths and 52 miles to Sutro tower I doubt that it's water causing your problems. It's much more likely plain old inversions.

I also have 2 edges and 54 miles to Walnut Grove and your predictions are far stronger than mine. I've found TV Fool to be overly pessimistic if anything on weak signals. Attached is my list where I've added reception ratings to the stations. Everything in the gray region should not be received but that is not even close to reality. I even had to list a bunch of stations that didn't even make my list. :)

I was reading an old report on the original reception models and they mentioned that the predictions took into account terrain but not the type surface. A surface covered by trees is a lot different than a surface with nothing but soil and rock. I'm sure TV Fool doesn't taken into account the type of surface.

Chuck
nope, no dice on KSBW. it's right above KGO on my tvfool report, but get zero reception pointing right at it with the same C5 i use to to get KGO.

my reception problems with fremont peak are the same as fellow board members from the west side of Morgan Hill complain of, only worse.we are in the narrowest section of the coyote valley floor and are basically surrounded by hills and mountains. thanks goodness for the opening we have to sutro tower or we would either have to pay for television or do without.

i live at the bottom of the hill where the motorcycle park is on top of metcalf road, next time i go up there ill bring my mobile set up and post the park's tv fool report
 
#11,297 ·
I also have 2 edges and 54 miles to Walnut Grove and your predictions are far stronger than mine. I've found TV Fool to be overly pessimistic if anything on weak signals.
Chuck
For those with smart phones....

www.whatismyelevation.com

With GPS, it quickly locates the "phones" elevation.
That could be helpful with reception too.
Here in Hayward ..... 271 elevation facing the west bay (San Francisco - Marin)
 
#11,299 ·
Hi,
Novice here and I need some advice and support. I'm going to dump AT&T U verse (Rip) and plan to install a antenna on my roof or attic. Don't know all the components necessary to make this all happen.


My main system consists of a Yamaha RX- A 3020 AV receiver into TV Sharp LC-70C8470U. I also have 2 other TV's in other rooms and they are cabled under the house. I'll be cable everything new.


What path (Will antenna go straight into AV receiver or TV?) and components will make this happen into the TV. Do I need a Tuner, Amplified Splitter. Big question ... What Antenna would be suggested as adequate ? I'm going to by a DVR and I'm open to all suggestions. I'm trying to keep it simple :) :)


I live in south Napa County in American Canyon. (Where the Quake hit)


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...d2435fb2372d8a

Thanks in advance
John
 
#11,300 · (Edited)
What path (Will antenna go straight into AV receiver or TV?) and components will make this happen into the TV. Do I need a Tuner, Amplified Splitter. Big question ... What Antenna would be suggested as adequate ? I'm going to by a DVR and I'm open to all suggestions. I'm trying to keep it simple :) :)

Thanks in advance
John
Adding to what I wrote in the other thread, the stations in green should be easy to receive. There are a few stations in other directions like KRCB and KTLN that may or may not be received with an antenna pointed at San Francisco. K03HY is on RF 3 and the antennas I suggested are not designed for low VHF (CHs 2-6) but it may be received anyway because it is strong. You're about as good a candidate for OTA as comes along here.

Chuck
 
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