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post #4591 of 6509 Old 08-01-2006, 05:36 AM
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kbtx runs the upn feed as a subchannel of the main hd feed (and one transmitter would only do one hd station) what it would require for them to get cw hd feed going is a second tower (which would be very expensive). but suddenlink doesnt have that problem because of the fiber line that was recently put in to link them up.... but as i said earlier they are fighting over $.
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post #4592 of 6509 Old 08-01-2006, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatalsync View Post

I'm picking up KBTX and KAMU at fine signal levels with the SquareShooter, but I haven't really tweaked it. Still no luck on the KYLE reception. Are they up to the 5KW yet?

Wow Bill. How high up is your antenna? I've got some trees on the southern side of the house that are taller than the house which might be a problem getting over them. Do you have a signal booster of any type?

Thanks!

Yes I have a pre-amp, again can't remember the model I think a 7777 or something like that. Antenna is just on a 10 foot pole strapped to the chimney, probably isn't even 5-6 feet above the chimney. I have a little luck with the South being relatively clear, and with a large tree behind my antenna from the street view it doesn't stick out. I do live up on a little hill, feel free to drive by and look at the setup.

Bill
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post #4593 of 6509 Old 08-02-2006, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagouar View Post

kbtx runs the upn feed as a subchannel of the main hd feed (and one transmitter would only do one hd station) what it would require for them to get cw hd feed going is a second tower (which would be very expensive). but suddenlink doesnt have that problem because of the fiber line that was recently put in to link them up.... but as i said earlier they are fighting over $.

Actually that's not completely true. You can put two 1080i/30 HDs in one channel at 9MBits each with 1 MBit reserved for PSIP and compression artifacts are low.

(The total broadcast bandwidth is 19.39 MBits)

The local PBS in Waco is puttig a 1080i/30 and two 480i/30s in one channel and it looks pretty darned good (I've watched it at home and I can't see any problems).

Because 1080i/30 takes less bandwidth than 720p/60 and can be compressed much more efficiently you have more flexability if you're 1080i.

Total Pixel/Sec

1080i/30 1620x1080x30 = 52488000
720p/60 1280x720x60 = 55296000

Plus the spacial Odd/Even line relationship of Interlaced scan allows for 30% better compression without resulting in objectionable artifacts.
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post #4594 of 6509 Old 08-02-2006, 03:52 PM
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2 HD channels at 9mbit would look horrible.... there was already a big dropoff when they added the upn subchannel from 18mbit to 15 mbit.
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post #4595 of 6509 Old 08-02-2006, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txag93 View Post

Yes I have a pre-amp, again can't remember the model I think a 7777 or something like that. Antenna is just on a 10 foot pole strapped to the chimney, probably isn't even 5-6 feet above the chimney. I have a little luck with the South being relatively clear, and with a large tree behind my antenna from the street view it doesn't stick out. I do live up on a little hill, feel free to drive by and look at the setup.

Bill

Drove by your place. It's as if God carved out that little window through the trees for you to put your antenna.

Your house is a little bit taller than mine, but I think I'm going to try it. Is there anyplace in town that has ChannelMasters and a good return policy?
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post #4596 of 6509 Old 08-02-2006, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagouar View Post

2 HD channels at 9mbit would look horrible.... there was already a big dropoff when they added the upn subchannel from 18mbit to 15 mbit.

I guess everybody is entitled to their opinion.

If anyone can get 34-1 from Waco (I don't think you can in Bryan) you can see a perfect example of fixed 9 MBit 1080i/30.

The problem with the other multiplexed stations in the market is that they use a Harris Flex-Coder that shares bandwidth by varying compression ratios and it does a basically lousy job of it sacrificing HD quality for SD bandwidth.

I am broadcasting FOX and WB at 15 MBits fixed and as I said 720p/60 requires more bandwidth that 1080i/30. I think most viewers will agree that our 720p is superior to other stations 1080i whether they are multicasting or not.
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post #4597 of 6509 Old 08-02-2006, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagouar View Post

2 HD channels at 9mbit would look horrible.... there was already a big dropoff when they added the upn subchannel from 18mbit to 15 mbit.

I can't understand how you can say that a 1080i/30 video signal that contains significantly less pixels per second un-compressed than a 720p/60 signal can look worse than when they are both encoded at the same 15 MBits video encoder rate!

That's like saying that a stereo that has a 15Hz-18Khz frequency response sounds better than one that is 15Hz to 15KHz (TV specs) when 100% of people can't hear anything above 14 KHz maximum and most can't hear above 12 KHz.

But then audiophiles have been saying that for years!
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post #4598 of 6509 Old 08-02-2006, 09:55 PM
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[quote=FOX44CE]
Total Pixel/Sec

1080i/30 1620x1080x30 = 52488000
720p/60 1280x720x60 = 55296000

FOX44CE, thanks for your work on 29 transmitter and 28 audio power overload issue. Help me on the math. I thought 1080i/30 was 1920 x 1080 x 30 = 62,208,000 pixels/sec.
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post #4599 of 6509 Old 08-02-2006, 10:42 PM
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[quote=russ26]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOX44CE View Post

Total Pixel/Sec

1080i/30 1620x1080x30 = 52488000
720p/60 1280x720x60 = 55296000

FOX44CE, thanks for your work on 29 transmitter and 28 audio power overload issue. Help me on the math. I thought 1080i/30 was 1920 x 1080 x 30 = 62,208,000 pixels/sec.

1920 is right, but it should be 1920x540x30, since your're only drawing 1/2 scanlines,right?
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post #4600 of 6509 Old 08-02-2006, 11:30 PM
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I don't think so, since in both 480i and 1080i, it's 60 fields/sec (technically 59.97 for NTSC), each field containing every other line of the image, or 30 full frames.

---
Well, I'm officially on the HD bandwagon, although the closest thing to an HD display I have is my computer monitor, so I figured I should post instead of just lurking this thread. We just got a Samsung SIR-T451 tuner, and are using the attic-mounted antenna we'd been using to watch analog TV (a UHF-only Zenith something or other, Yagi-style but with a loop for the driven element and curved piece of aluminum for a reflector, plus RCA preamp... not my choices, but they worked ok). With the antenna pointed torward north Bryan, all the analog channels came in well. 40 and 47 have a little static, but 3, 15, 23, and 28 are great.

As far as HD reception, KAMU and KYLE/KWKT come in great. KBTX (both CBS and UPN) will be great for a few seconds and then suddenly drop out. I think we may have to get a second antenna, since KBTX is the opposite direction from everything else.

Watching the signal strength meter, KAMU is a solid 10 bars (out of 10). KWKT hovers around 8, ranging from 6 to 9; I haven't noticed any dropouts. KBTX will have 5-6 bars when it's a steady picture, then drop to zero for a few seconds when the picture messes up.

In comparison, with rabbit ears in the bedroom, I can get KBTX and KAMU perfectly (10 bars), but no KWKT at all (blips of 2-3 bars, but nothing steady).

Something strange: I'm only getting program guide info on KAMU. KBTX and KWKT both just show "no data". Also, I see perfect closed captions on KBTX, intermittent dropouts on KWKT (picture is fine however), and none on KAMU. Anybody else having that issue?

Data point: According to antenna web, KYLE is at 271 degrees, 11.6 miles from me (I live in Forest Lakes, about 4 miles east of Harvey/Hwy6).

One more thing, perhaps FOX44CE can explain (or fix): I've noticed the picture on the SD FOX signal is darker than the other channels, like somebody turned the brightness down. Many shows are like this, but the myNetwork promos are particularly dark. This goes for both 28 analog and 28-1 DT. 28-2 is normal, and you can really see the difference flipping between 28-1 and 28-2.
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post #4601 of 6509 Old 08-03-2006, 12:18 AM
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[quote=fatalsync]
Quote:
Originally Posted by russ26 View Post


1920 is right, but it should be 1920x540x30, since your're only drawing 1/2 scanlines,right?

Interlaced:

One-half of a picture each 1/60th of a second.
Other-half of a picture next 1/60th of a second.

Whole picture every 1/30th of a second.


1920 x 540 x 60 = 62,208,000 pixels/sec.
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post #4602 of 6509 Old 08-03-2006, 08:08 AM
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Hello fellow C.S. residents!! This is my first post in this forum, so please be kind.

I'm looking to add HDTV to my myth box and am wondering just what to expect in terms of the amount of channels I'll be able to pick up. I currently reside in SWV, and could easily put an ant. up on my chimney. There is a fiarly large oak that would be to the west of the ant, if it was pointing N-S. My bro lives a few blocks over and had an off-air ant. 10ft off his roof peak, and he picked up KBTX, KAMU, and 2-3 more in HD (that was till a nasty storm came through several months back).

I don't have an HD card yet, or ant., and would like recommendations on both. I'm also looking to get into satellite feeds on the mythbox also, and any information on that would also be appreciated.

Would a powered horizontal bar ant. a few feet above my chimney suffice? It'd probably be 18-22 ft off the ground, total. From which general directions do you find the antennas best reception comming from?

If this is the wrong thread, I apologize, but it seemed appropriate with regard to the location.
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post #4603 of 6509 Old 08-03-2006, 10:12 AM
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Speaking of mythtv... dave I finally got a good enough experince with vista to completly switch over my mce server to vista. 5472 finally has the performance to run with the 360 extended and actually looks very very cool.

Still a shame they dont have play dvd support in it (or a good way to add codecs) but for playing music and tv its working beautifully now.
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post #4604 of 6509 Old 08-03-2006, 12:05 PM
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[quote=russ26][quote=fatalsync]

Interlaced:

One-half of a picture each 1/60th of a second.
Other-half of a picture next 1/60th of a second.

Whole picture every 1/30th of a second.


1920 x 540 x 60 = 62,208,000 pixels/sec.[/QUO

You are correct. 1080i is 1920x1080x30 or alternately 1920x540x60. [I don't do 1080i so I goofed]

Either way it is 62,208,000 Pixels/Sec but the compression algorithm in my Tandberg 5780 Encoder still shows that 1080i compressed to 15 MBits will produce less degradation than 720p compressed to 15 MBits.

The Tandberg recommendations for fixed compression is 9 MBits for 1080i and 12 MBits for 720p minimum in multichannel operation.

I suspect that is because the 1/30th second offset between the odd and even lines of the picture in 1080i already produces so many motion artifacts that don't exist in progressive scan that the blurry images are just deleted from the output.

In any case KWBU is encoding 34.1 at 9 MBits 1080i with a Tansdberg 5780 and it looks much better than the 15 MBit CBS HD from KWTX who using Flex-Coder.



My bad.
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post #4605 of 6509 Old 08-03-2006, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf007 View Post

I don't think so, since in both 480i and 1080i, it's 60 fields/sec (technically 59.97 for NTSC), each field containing every other line of the image, or 30 full frames.

---
Well, I'm officially on the HD bandwagon, although the closest thing to an HD display I have is my computer monitor, so I figured I should post instead of just lurking this thread. We just got a Samsung SIR-T451 tuner, and are using the attic-mounted antenna we'd been using to watch analog TV (a UHF-only Zenith something or other, Yagi-style but with a loop for the driven element and curved piece of aluminum for a reflector, plus RCA preamp... not my choices, but they worked ok). With the antenna pointed torward north Bryan, all the analog channels came in well. 40 and 47 have a little static, but 3, 15, 23, and 28 are great.

As far as HD reception, KAMU and KYLE/KWKT come in great. KBTX (both CBS and UPN) will be great for a few seconds and then suddenly drop out. I think we may have to get a second antenna, since KBTX is the opposite direction from everything else.

Watching the signal strength meter, KAMU is a solid 10 bars (out of 10). KWKT hovers around 8, ranging from 6 to 9; I haven't noticed any dropouts. KBTX will have 5-6 bars when it's a steady picture, then drop to zero for a few seconds when the picture messes up.

In comparison, with rabbit ears in the bedroom, I can get KBTX and KAMU perfectly (10 bars), but no KWKT at all (blips of 2-3 bars, but nothing steady).

Something strange: I'm only getting program guide info on KAMU. KBTX and KWKT both just show "no data". Also, I see perfect closed captions on KBTX, intermittent dropouts on KWKT (picture is fine however), and none on KAMU. Anybody else having that issue?

Data point: According to antenna web, KYLE is at 271 degrees, 11.6 miles from me (I live in Forest Lakes, about 4 miles east of Harvey/Hwy6).

One more thing, perhaps FOX44CE can explain (or fix): I've noticed the picture on the SD FOX signal is darker than the other channels, like somebody turned the brightness down. Many shows are like this, but the myNetwork promos are particularly dark. This goes for both 28 analog and 28-1 DT. 28-2 is normal, and you can really see the difference flipping between 28-1 and 28-2.

Thanks for the input.

The KWKT HD upconvertor and analog transmitter STL are fed from the same proc amp as Time Warner and Grande cable in Waco and they keep a close eye on them.

We pick up the KYLE feed over the air to monitor it, and KYLE [the analog and digital transmitters] are fed by the same microwave link.

I have two waveform monitors side by side for the KWKT and KYLE over-the air demodulators and right now they are showing the exact same levels.

The vertical interval test signal [generated at the transmitter sites independant of the microwave] are both showing exactly 100% video level so the transmitters are set right.

I switched the KYLE transmitters over to my hidden KWKT-DT secondary STL feed from here and saw no level shift though.

I'll let you know.
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post #4606 of 6509 Old 08-03-2006, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatalsync View Post

Drove by your place. It's as if God carved out that little window through the trees for you to put your antenna.

Your house is a little bit taller than mine, but I think I'm going to try it. Is there anyplace in town that has ChannelMasters and a good return policy?

Bought mine online, some have mentioned that either Lowe's or HD has some pre-amp, but I don't know.

Yes, guess I'm lucky, although at the rate my Post Oaks are dying, trees won't be a problem soon. Lost 2 huge one's this year to what I believe is overwatering by my neighbor (runs off and collects on my side)

Bill
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post #4607 of 6509 Old 08-06-2006, 09:01 PM
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Something with the rain must have caused it, but I was able to get several channels out of Austin tonight (none from Waco though). All have since faded however. It was nice being able to watch that meaningless NFL game in HD on NBC. I guess we can't count on KCEN upgrading KMAY-23 until the FCC forces them to, eh? (And likewise for KXXV/KRHD)

Is anybody else able to see program/guide info for KBTX or KYLE (OTA)? I wonder if my receiver has a problem or it's the stations' fault.

BTW, are there any plans to (further) increase the power of KYLE-DT? Or is that not until the big switch date? While I can get it, it seems others are not so lucky.
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post #4608 of 6509 Old 08-07-2006, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jagouar View Post

Actually its not... dont know what it is but its not from waco (atleast not their feed). the abc-hd feed on suddenlink is still 17mbit (which is much higher than the 13.5 from waco because of all the subchannels.)

I am working on getting tom way's new email address (since his cox one no longer works) so hopefully i will get some real information about him (about who/how to contact them)

And I agree weekends are when they are never on... and during the week they still arent that great about switching to hd.


Did you ever have any luck contacting Tom Way? I was curious if there was any chance of us getting ESPN2HD in the future.
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post #4609 of 6509 Old 08-07-2006, 03:15 PM
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no i havent gotten a reply from the guy at texags with his new email.... i want to know whats going on with abc as well. (and any other additions in the works.... i would love to see fsn-hd added as well)
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post #4610 of 6509 Old 08-07-2006, 06:27 PM
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Anybody get a chance to flip by KAMU, they are doing thier local requests for donations and the quality is awesome. I don't know exactly where they shoot this but I'm assuming it's on campus. If so good to know our local PBS studio is already HD capable. I wonder if this has anything to do with the HD upgrade the athletic department is undergoing.

Any of you get a chance to drive by Kyle and check out the new screen? Can't wait to see HD images on there come Sept. hopefully they will have the HD upgrade complete by then so sideline cameras can feed replays to the screen in HD.
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post #4611 of 6509 Old 08-07-2006, 06:56 PM
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KAMU has had a HD studio for a few years now I believe. They do several local shows in HD as well as their donation drives. The station engineer has even offered us a tour, but we've never come up with a time to meet.

Very cool indeed though.
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post #4612 of 6509 Old 08-07-2006, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave99ag View Post

KAMU has had a HD studio for a few years now I believe. They do several local shows in HD as well as their donation drives. The station engineer has even offered us a tour, but we've never come up with a time to meet.

Very cool indeed though.

who was that that contacted him? it would be a good tour and maybe we could finally pressure him into getting some remote broadcast equipment so we could start getting them to do more hd stuff like muster (which could be played nationally on pbs).... certainly would be better than tons of repeats.
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post #4613 of 6509 Old 08-08-2006, 04:17 AM
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I want to say he posted somewhere in our monster thread.
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post #4614 of 6509 Old 08-08-2006, 06:22 PM
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Greetings - KAMU has had HD studio production (1080i) since the Fall of 2003. HD transmission began the week of Spring Break in 2003. Nearly all local productions are produced in HD and down-converted to SD where necessary.

Our HD plant is a HD-SDI infrastructure with embedded AC-3 audio. We do not have 5.1 channel origination capability at this time.

Remote production equipment is currently limited to two Sony broadcast grade HDCams and an industrial HDV camcorder. My hope is that our next remote truck will be a fully HD capable unit. Its only money.

Our productions efforts are independent of any TAMU Athletic Dept. activities.

KAMU would welcome to host your group at the station as well as arrange individual tours as requested. I am very proud of the technical plant we have been able to assemble at one of the smallest PBS stations in the country.

On a related note, we will begin HDTV broadcasts to the TAMU Doha, Qatar campus via our Internet2 connectivity capability. We have been active in various IP network HD broadcast demonstrations and tests for some time.

Also look for Governor and Congressional debates in October in a partnership with KBTX/KWTX originating from KAMU Studio A in HD of course.

And finally KAMU - FM (90.9) will be moving into the HD Radio world later this Fall when we begin iBquity HD Radio broadcast in addition to the current analog broadcast.

Please feel free to contact me anytime. I am always interested in your HD reception accomplishments and problems with KAMU or other stations as well.

I have been know to show up at individuals homes with test equipment in hand!


Wayne Pecena
Assistant Director of Educational Broadcast Services
KAMU Director of Engineering
w-pecena@tamu.edu
979-845-5662
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post #4615 of 6509 Old 08-09-2006, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpecena View Post

Greetings - KAMU has had HD studio production (1080i) since the Fall of 2003. HD transmission began the week of Spring Break in 2003. Nearly all local productions are produced in HD and down-converted to SD where necessary.

Our HD plant is a HD-SDI infrastructure with embedded AC-3 audio. We do not have 5.1 channel origination capability at this time.

Remote production equipment is currently limited to two Sony broadcast grade HDCams and an industrial HDV camcorder. My hope is that our next remote truck will be a fully HD capable unit. Its only money.

Our productions efforts are independent of any TAMU Athletic Dept. activities.

KAMU would welcome to host your group at the station as well as arrange individual tours as requested. I am very proud of the technical plant we have been able to assemble at one of the smallest PBS stations in the country.

On a related note, we will begin HDTV broadcasts to the TAMU Doha, Qatar campus via our Internet2 connectivity capability. We have been active in various IP network HD broadcast demonstrations and tests for some time.

Also look for Governor and Congressional debates in October in a partnership with KBTX/KWTX originating from KAMU Studio A in HD of course.

And finally KAMU - FM (90.9) will be moving into the HD Radio world later this Fall when we begin iBquity HD Radio broadcast in addition to the current analog broadcast.

Please feel free to contact me anytime. I am always interested in your HD reception accomplishments and problems with KAMU or other stations as well.

I have been know to show up at individuals homes with test equipment in hand!


Wayne Pecena
Assistant Director of Educational Broadcast Services
KAMU Director of Engineering
w-pecena@tamu.edu
979-845-5662

Many thanks for the reply, it's always good to know that there are "in" people who regular AVS. In regards to a question posted by jagouar about Muster being shot in HD and offered to other PBS stations nationwide. I am unsure if it currently airs in SD but this sounded like a very good suggestion to me.

BTW you are more then welcome to come over to my apt to offer any technical advice on my current setup. If you have a signal generator and also know how to properly calibrate a set that's even better.
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post #4616 of 6509 Old 08-11-2006, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Gandalf007 View Post

Something with the rain must have caused it, but I was able to get several channels out of Austin tonight (none from Waco though). All have since faded however. It was nice being able to watch that meaningless NFL game in HD on NBC. I guess we can't count on KCEN upgrading KMAY-23 until the FCC forces them to, eh? (And likewise for KXXV/KRHD)

Is anybody else able to see program/guide info for KBTX or KYLE (OTA)? I wonder if my receiver has a problem or it's the stations' fault.

BTW, are there any plans to (further) increase the power of KYLE-DT? Or is that not until the big switch date? While I can get it, it seems others are not so lucky.

At the end of the transition (currently slated by Congress as Jan 2009) KYLE-DT will move to channel 28 and increase power to 50 KW. At present our maximum allowable power by FCC ruling is 5 KW (and we had to commision and submit a study to assure that we wouldn't inrefere with the the Dallas and Lake Charles analog channel 29s when we increased from 1 KW to 5 KW. (Still the stepchild)

(The FCC interference criteria for digital to analog interference are extremely stringent)
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post #4617 of 6509 Old 08-12-2006, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FOX44CE View Post



You are correct. 1080i is 1920x1080x30 or alternately 1920x540x60. [I don't do 1080i so I goofed]

Either way it is 62,208,000 Pixels/Sec but the compression algorithm in my Tandberg 5780 Encoder still shows that 1080i compressed to 15 MBits will produce less degradation than 720p compressed to 15 MBits.

The Tandberg recommendations for fixed compression is 9 MBits for 1080i and 12 MBits for 720p minimum in multichannel operation.

I suspect that is because the 1/30th second offset between the odd and even lines of the picture in 1080i already produces so many motion artifacts that don't exist in progressive scan that the blurry images are just deleted from the output.

In any case KWBU is encoding 34.1 at 9 MBits 1080i with a Tansdberg 5780 and it looks much better than the 15 MBit CBS HD from KWTX who using Flex-Coder.



My bad.

FOX44CE, so then if a 1080i channel allocates ALL its bandwith to only one digital channel (CBS 11 Dallas/19), is there additional benefit to what we see as a viewer? Or would it be similar to two separate 9Mbit streams on a digital channel with two equal sub-channels and that encoder? CBS Dallas moved their weather sub-channel to an affiliated station's sub-channel at 240i resolution(21-2/18-2).
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post #4618 of 6509 Old 08-14-2006, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by russ26 View Post

FOX44CE, so then if a 1080i channel allocates ALL its bandwith to only one digital channel (CBS 11 Dallas/19), is there additional benefit to what we see as a viewer? Or would it be similar to two separate 9Mbit streams on a digital channel with two equal sub-channels and that encoder? CBS Dallas moved their weather sub-channel to an affiliated station's sub-channel at 240i resolution(21-2/18-2).

If it was 240i your TV couldn't receive it. 480i is the minimum ATSC standard.

I see some flattenning of the image on the KWBU 9 MBit HD image but no pixelation at all.

I would love to try two 9 MBit 1080i signals but I don't have the encoders to test it.
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post #4619 of 6509 Old 08-17-2006, 12:20 PM
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Slightly off topic but they are testing out the new video display over at Kyle. I wonder if anybody for the Athletic Dept. or affiliated with their video production room gets here on AVS to brag about our A/V setup. I know the people working for the athletic dept. are qualified but it's soo much better when we they are AVS junkies and give is the low down on all the technical details (i.e. FOX44CE & wpecena).
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post #4620 of 6509 Old 08-18-2006, 06:50 AM
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I wonder if Wayne knows someone over there that can give us the scoop on the new screen. It looks very impressive. I've heard that the video group is being upgraded to handle HD for the new screen, but I'm not sure.
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