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Fargo, ND - HDTV

382K views 2K replies 167 participants last post by  bm10k 
#1 · (Edited)
Check out http://brian.glaeske.name/ht/Fargo-HDTV/index.html for the latest information on current broadcast status in Fargo/Moorhead.


Note: This thread is also serving the Grand Forks, ND market as well. Please send me a private message for any specific updates you would like to see about the status of GF HD.

Update on 10/5/2020. The above-mentioned page has been taken down.

---


For all those lurking around the Fargo, ND and Moorhead, MN area who are chomping at the bit for a little bit of HDTV, then I have good news and bad news.


The good news is that we have 3 of 5 stations broadcasting in DTV, the bad news is that only 1 of 3 is broadcasting true HDTV and the other two have no plans in the works for passing the HD signal from their respective networks. Somewhat good news is that the NBC and CBS stations are starting the transition but are still months away.


KFME (PBS), channel 23 is broadcasting PBS's 1080i from 7pm CT to 10pm CT, multi-casting the rest of the time. KVRR (Fox), channel 19 is broadcasting a standard definition signal, but not Fox's widescreen enhanced format. WDAY (ABC), channel 21 is broadcasting a standard definition signal and have no plans to show ABC's 720p broadcasts. It should also be noted that WDAY is not even passing a stereo signal with their broadcasts and instead are sending a mono.


The station managers of both WDAY and KVRR have been actually pretty rude to me regarding my inquiries. WDAY won't reply if they don't like the question and KVRR just doesn't care.


KVLY (NBC), channel 58 and KXJB (CBS), channel 38 are not currently broadcasting even a digital signal. According to the station manager (these stations are in a cost sharing agreement), the signals will be turned on sometime around Thanksgiving of this year and they intend to pass the 1080i signals from both NBC and CBS to us. This is sort of good news, but I wish it was in time for the Olympics and the fall season.


The only FM cable provider, CableONE, is providing a minimal set of HD programming in the form of HBO and Showtime HD with plans to add ESPN-HD and Discovery. However, the cost of these channels is pretty prohibitive in my book. It is nearly cheaper to just get VOOM and keep your CableONE connection.


My only request for those reading this in the FM area... Please call and e-mail the station managers of these stations asking them about HDTV. The only way that they will know what the demand for HDTV is, is if we let them know we exist.


Brian G.
 
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#1,127 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by puck71 /forum/post/14508407


Out of curiosity, how are you saving $30? I know everyone has different needs, but whenever I run the numbers they come out about the same, and my CableONE bill is about the same as yours was. If you're willing, could you post a breakdown of what your cable bill was and what your new Dish bill is? Removing any promo rates of course. Thanks!

If you could, that would be great. I have been mulling over this decision for a while now.
 
#1,128 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by corman /forum/post/14477504


Does anyone know who and where to contact someone at KBRR/FOX to find out if we are going to get an HD feed in GF?

They have until February 17th, or they get in major trouble with the FCC....KBRR is a full power station, so there is no exception like translators and LPTV get....

Their best bet will to buy a dual-mode channel 10 transmitter and flip the switch to digital in Feb (that is what WDAZ did). No tower work needed, just schedule a few days to be off the air while the old transmitter is removed and the new one installed. (over the summer when no new programming is airing would have been perfect). STL and ICR links would have to be converted, if they aren't already, but that may just be a matter of replacing hardware in the tower shacks (in every relay point in the chain!)
 
#1,129 ·
According to their latest FCC filing, http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=55370 , they don't plan to have their DTV signal on the air until 6/1/2009, and it sounds like they are going to move to KCGE's tower north of Crookston.....I'm wondering if they'll be forced to turn off the analog in feb, leaving the Grand Forks area without FOX for a few months....

I think everyone within KBRR's range needs to complain to the FCC....Mandatory transition was planned 10 years ago, so it's not like it was a surprise to the broadcasters. OTA viewers have had to make investments to receive the new type of signals, but broadcasters in the GF area don't seem to be making the same investments. They need to be held accountable for not acting in the public interest, and not making the plans that broadcasters who hold licenses to use the public's airwaves should have had finalized years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by egftechman /forum/post/14515931


They have until February 17th, or they get in major trouble with the FCC....KBRR is a full power station, so there is no exception like translators and LPTV get....

Their best bet will to buy a dual-mode channel 10 transmitter and flip the switch to digital in Feb (that is what WDAZ did). No tower work needed, just schedule a few days to be off the air while the old transmitter is removed and the new one installed. (over the summer when no new programming is airing would have been perfect). STL and ICR links would have to be converted, if they aren't already, but that may just be a matter of replacing hardware in the tower shacks (in every relay point in the chain!)
 
#1,130 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by puck71 /forum/post/14486621


I looked up the specs on that model and it should be able to get your HD channels with the antenna without a separate box.


Every set is different so honestly I'd just check the "getting started" section of the manual. In general they should work just like your old TV. You plug in the antenna cable, turn it on, and go to the channels you want to watch. They'll usually have some kind of auto-scan feature in the menu so you only can flip through channels you actually get.


Your TV has both analog and digital tuners so you may have to choose in a menu somewhere whether you're using analog or digital. If so that would be the biggest difference with this set.

Well its in the basement of my house so I don't know if it'll get any clear reception of HD or not.



Btw, for the Direct TV people in Fargo, I've got a question...Me and my dad are thinking about switching from CableONE's cable to DTV, for HD purposes mainly. I know the local channels aren't featured in DTV's HD package, is there anyway, say we get the NFL Sunday ticket free, that the Vikings games, and whatevers on CBS will be in HD? This is for college and NFL...or will it have to be VIA HD antenna? I accidentally broke 1 rabbit ear off of the one I bought last week..so I'll return it and get another.


It's so frustrating that a metro the size of Fargo can't negotiate something out and get all the locals in HD.
 
#1,131 ·
Has anyone in the GF area had any luck pulling the HD KVRR signal from Fargo? I live 20 miles north of Mayville and currently pick up digital signals from CBS, Prairie Public (1,2&3), WDAY (1,2&3), and KVLY with rabbit ears. I'd consider getting an antenna mounted in my attic if doing so would increase my chances of pulling FOX in HD. If not, I'll stick with my rabbit ears.
 
#1,132 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzrunner /forum/post/14516887


Has anyone in the GF area had any luck pulling the HD KVRR signal from Fargo? I live 20 miles north of Mayville and currently pick up digital signals from CBS, Prairie Public (1,2&3), WDAY (1,2&3), and KVLY with rabbit ears. I'd consider getting an antenna mounted in my attic if doing so would increase my chances of pulling FOX in HD. If not, I'll stick with my rabbit ears.

I live in Fargo but can tell you it's going to be highly unlikely for you to be able to pick up KVRR all the way up there.


The other 4 towers are located 22-40 miles NW of Fargo -- That's why you can pick them up 20 miles north of Mayville. However, KVRR is located 28 miles ESE of Fargo, thus about 30-50 miles farther than the others in relation to your location. Plus they are broadcasting at 1/2 the power of WDAY at a similar frequency (19 vs. 21). (KVRR is 93 miles from your location, the others are 40 to 60)


Pluging some numbers into TVFOOL shows you'd be lucky if you could receive anything even with a 8 bay reflector antenna outside on a tall mast from where you are. You could try, but I doubt it. Plus if you have any wind or weather you'd likely not receive it.


Entering GrandForks into TVFool shows the following strengths:

KVLY -59 db

KXJB -63 db

WDAY -95 db

KFME -102 db

KVRR -120 db


Remember each 3 db means half the signal strength. I suspect you currently have a lower signal level with WDAY and even lower with KFME than the other 2. KVRR is another 18 decibles lower than the signal level of KFME.
 
#1,133 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replay3030Owner /forum/post/14517568


I live in Fargo but can tell you it's going to be highly unlikely for you to be able to pick up KVRR all the way up there.


The other 4 towers are located 22-40 miles NW of Fargo -- That's why you can pick them up 20 miles north of Mayville. However, KVRR is located 28 miles ESE of Fargo, thus about 30-50 miles farther than the others in relation to your location. Plus they are broadcasting at 1/2 the power of WDAY at a similar frequency (19 vs. 21). (KVRR is 93 miles from your location, the others are 40 to 60)


Pluging some numbers into TVFOOL shows you'd be lucky if you could receive anything even with a 8 bay reflector antenna outside on a tall mast from where you are. You could try, but I doubt it. Plus if you have any wind or weather you'd likely not receive it.


Entering GrandForks into TVFool shows the following strengths:

KVLY -59 db

KXJB -63 db

WDAY -95 db

KFME -102 db

KVRR -120 db


Remember each 3 db means half the signal strength. I suspect you currently have a lower signal level with WDAY and even lower with KFME than the other 2. KVRR is another 18 decibles lower, or 17% of the signal level of KFME.

Thanks for the info! I'll stick with the rabbit ears for now and hope KBRR broadcasts a digital signal sooner rather than later.
 
#1,134 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stischucky /forum/post/14516117


I know the local channels aren't featured in DTV's HD package, is there anyway, say we get the NFL Sunday ticket free, that the Vikings games, and whatevers on CBS will be in HD? This is for college and NFL...or will it have to be VIA HD antenna? I accidentally broke 1 rabbit ear off of the one I bought last week..so I'll return it and get another.

That's a good question that I'm not totally sure of. It seems like if the Sunday Ticket package is available in HD, which I assume it is, then you would get all the games in HD. I doubt it would matter if your local affiliates are actually available yet, but I could be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stischucky /forum/post/14516117


It's so frustrating that a metro the size of Fargo can't negotiate something out and get all the locals in HD.

The city has zero to do with it. It's all up to Dish/DirecTV when they want to get each city's channels on the air. And to a lesser degree up to the local affiliates to negotiate a deal with them, but the dish companies would be instigating that process, not the affiliates.
 
#1,135 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stischucky /forum/post/14516117


Well its in the basement of my house so I don't know if it'll get any clear reception of HD or not.



Btw, for the Direct TV people in Fargo, I've got a question...Me and my dad are thinking about switching from CableONE's cable to DTV, for HD purposes mainly. I know the local channels aren't featured in DTV's HD package, is there anyway, say we get the NFL Sunday ticket free, that the Vikings games, and whatevers on CBS will be in HD? This is for college and NFL...or will it have to be VIA HD antenna? I accidentally broke 1 rabbit ear off of the one I bought last week..so I'll return it and get another.


It's so frustrating that a metro the size of Fargo can't negotiate something out and get all the locals in HD.


when you order sunday ticket, you can get super fan for free by just calling and saying something abnout the price...than all the VIKINGS games are in HD. THE sd feed will be blacked out but not the HD feed.


If you are in fargo, just get an off air antenna and you will get the HD feeds of the games...that whats i have....ps...i install directv...
 
#1,136 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by egftechman /forum/post/14515982


According to their latest FCC filing, http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=55370 , they don't plan to have their DTV signal on the air until 6/1/2009, and it sounds like they are going to move to KCGE's tower north of Crookston.....I'm wondering if they'll be forced to turn off the analog in feb, leaving the Grand Forks area without FOX for a few months....

I think everyone within KBRR's range needs to complain to the FCC....Mandatory transition was planned 10 years ago, so it's not like it was a surprise to the broadcasters. OTA viewers have had to make investments to receive the new type of signals, but broadcasters in the GF area don't seem to be making the same investments. They need to be held accountable for not acting in the public interest, and not making the plans that broadcasters who hold licenses to use the public's airwaves should have had finalized years ago.

I completely, 100%, agree with this. RIDICULOUS.
 
#1,137 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by urnote96 /forum/post/14522977


when you order sunday ticket, you can get super fan for free by just calling and saying something abnout the price...than all the VIKINGS games are in HD. THE sd feed will be blacked out but not the HD feed.


If you are in fargo, just get an off air antenna and you will get the HD feeds of the games...that whats i have....ps...i install directv...

Well Moorhead so yea same thing.


i got the antenna and everything, I hit input but all i get is snow on my "TV" part of my inputs...I'll hit the analog/digital button on my remote and get a black screen then a no program box pops up.
 
#1,139 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stischucky /forum/post/14539117


Ok, I went out and bought a Philips HDTV antenna and I get my CBS in HD now.


I also get about 3 wdays, 3 prariie publics and fox in HD.


It never found NBC. Any thought to why?

Turn the antenna so that both elements are inline with about north-west. The elements should be straight up as well. KVLY's tower is the farthest away so it can be tricky to get in, getting the antenna at the right angle really helps.


BTW, is there another local board you might post on?
 
#1,140 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stischucky /forum/post/14539117


Ok, I went out and bought a Philips HDTV antenna and I get my CBS in HD now.


I also get about 3 wdays, 3 prariie publics and fox in HD.


It never found NBC. Any thought to why?


Are you in Fargo? WhenI got my new HDTV, I couldn't get KVLY DT, either, but I'm north of Breckenridge. I have a big antenna on the roof and figured I should be able to get it. I finally came to find out the TV's tuner was bad and needed to be replaced. That is one possibility.


Is this an indoor antenna? If so, it might not be powerful enough to get KVLY, as someone else pointed out, because their tower is farther away.
 
#1,141 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mym6 /forum/post/14539313


Turn the antenna so that both elements are inline with about north-west. The elements should be straight up as well. KVLY's tower is the farthest away so it can be tricky to get in, getting the antenna at the right angle really helps.


BTW, is there another local board you might post on?

Alright, right now its just layin on the ground cause i bought it at like 9 tonight.


yea, I post on a few other local boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick T /forum/post/14539548


Are you in Fargo? WhenI got my new HDTV, I couldn't get KVLY DT, either, but I'm north of Breckenridge. I have a big antenna on the roof and figured I should be able to get it. I finally came to find out the TV's tuner was bad and needed to be replaced. That is one possibility.


Is this an indoor antenna? If so, it might not be powerful enough to get KVLY, as someone else pointed out, because their tower is farther away.

Moorhead, so close enough. Tomorrow I'll attach it to the house.


It's an outdoor philips UHF HDTV antenna i got at walmart for 40 bucks, I need the outdoor cause my tv's in the basement and gets nothing with my indoor.


I'll fiddle around with it more tomorrow, im just happy I can get CBS in digital now in time for football season.
 
#1,143 ·
First, there is no such thing as an HDTV antenna. That's made up marketing. Any UHF antenna will pick up any UHF signal, analog or digital, SD or HD.


What is the range rating for the UHF signal on the antenna box? Most around the $30-$40 range are only good for 35-40 miles and KVLY is farther than that from Moorhead.


It it a YAGI design (e.g. 'classic' pointed array with or without angled reflectors at the back end -- I suspect so) or a bow/loop + screen design? If you're getting in Fox, then I suspect it is not very directional, since fox is almost 180 degrees behind the other 4 towers with respect to your location in moorhead. Or you could be getting bounce off other homes, trees, etc.. which definitely could contribute to a weak KVLY signal.


Have you entered your exact street address into TVFool.com to see the direction of the towers to help you point?


What type of cabling are you using? Flatwire or coax? RG59 or RG6? How long a run? How many splitters or connectors are you using between the antenna and the TV?


All of these things drastically affect the ability of an antenna to give you a signal.


In South Fargo with a field north of us, I can pick up all 5 frequencies with a simple bowtie antenna up against the sheetrock on the north side of a room on the north side of the house. However on windy days it starts breaking up. A larger antenna like the homemade Gray-Hoverman lets me get much better signal quality even in the house, and if mounted outside would be excellent.


Also are you feeding this into a high quality tuner or certain poor design converter box tuners? Since each tuner is different, some pick up more than others.


Did you do your initial channel scan when it was rainy or windy? That can affect UHF signal pickup too.



Also remember that you will still need a VHF antenna after Feburary 09 to pickup KFME/PBS as they will be moving the digital signal from their temporary UHF 23 allocation back to VHF 13 (where their analog currently is). Hopefully the antenna you bought handles both.
 
#1,144 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replay3030Owner /forum/post/14551646


First, there is no such thing as an HDTV antenna. That's made up marketing. Any UHF antenna will pick up any UHF signal, analog or digital, SD or HD.Yea its a UHF outdoor antenna


What is the range rating for the UHF signal on the antenna box? Most around the $30-$40 range are only good for 35-40 miles and KVLY is farther than that from Moorhead.It says 0-20 miles from singal source


It it a YAGI design (e.g. 'classic' pointed array with or without angled reflectors at the back end -- I suspect so) or a bow/loop + screen design?
http://www.builderdepot.com/PHILIPS_...g/mant-940.jpg

If you're getting in Fox, then I suspect it is not very directional, since fox is almost 180 degrees behind the other 4 towers with respect to your location in moorhead. Or you could be getting bounce off other homes, trees, etc.. which definitely could contribute to a weak KVLY signal.We were just experimenting with it, put it out in the back yard in the middle of the garden and i was getting a good 74-80 on my signal for KVLY and KXJB both, now its on the roof and we can't get crap...dont really want to run a cable to the garden


Have you entered your exact street address into TVFool.com to see the direction of the towers to help you point?As you said, looks like im 41 miles from KVLY's tower..


What type of cabling are you using? 1 Flatwire or coax?regular screw in cable RG59 or RG6?no idea How long a run?You mean how long is it? if so 100ft How many splitters or connectors are you using between the antenna and the TV?1 amplifier that came with the antenna


All of these things drastically affect the ability of an antenna to give you a signal.


In South Fargo with a field north of us, I can pick up all 5 frequencies with a simple bowtie antenna up against the sheetrock on the north side of a room on the north side of the house. However on windy days it starts breaking up. A larger antenna like the homemade Gray-Hoverman lets me get much better signal quality even in the house, and if mounted outside would be excellent.


Also are you feeding this into a high quality tuner or certain poor design converter box tuners?TV has tuner inside of it Since each tuner is different, some pick up more than others.


Did you do your initial channel scan when it was rainy or windy?Sunny, no idea about wind but I got all locals on it That can affect UHF signal pickup too.



Also remember that you will still need a VHF antenna after Feburary 09 to pickup KFME/PBS as they will be moving the digital signal from their temporary UHF 23 allocation back to VHF 13 (where their analog currently is). Hopefully the antenna you bought handles both.

Thanks for the write up
 
#1,145 ·
Looking for some assistance if I can get it. I have not used my Media Center in a while and am just trying to get ready for the upcoming football season and have a problem.


I am specifically looking to see if there is someone out there with an OTA HD setup on Vista Media Center to see if I can get a copy of your prefs.xml and/or atscchannels.xml to make sure I have the right channel and frequency settings.


I am getting HD working as I can watch the KVRR HD signal, but I am not picking up any other channels and I have in the past with no issues. I believe I have the right frequencies based on the AntennaWeb information, just not picking them up.


Any assistance would be appreciated.
 
#1,146 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginman /forum/post/14567179


Looking for some assistance if I can get it. I have not used my Media Center in a while and am just trying to get ready for the upcoming football season and have a problem.


I am specifically looking to see if there is someone out there with an OTA HD setup on Vista Media Center to see if I can get a copy of your prefs.xml and/or atscchannels.xml to make sure I have the right channel and frequency settings.


I am getting HD working as I can watch the KVRR HD signal, but I am not picking up any other channels and I have in the past with no issues. I believe I have the right frequencies based on the AntennaWeb information, just not picking them up.


Any assistance would be appreciated.


I have Windows XP Media Center 2005. This is what I have. I don't see why it would be different for Vista.



-












Media Center 'found' KWCM, KSAX, and KCCO, even though they don't come in. I hope this helps.


I don't know if you're trying to do this tonight or not, but KVRR-DT hasn't wanted to come in very well on any of my TVs. Now this evening, WDAY (6-1, 2, and 3) has not been coming in on anything, either. So, if you're doing this tonight and not picking up those stations, it's probably not your problem.
 
#1,149 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginman /forum/post/14569611


Thanks for the response. These are the same settings I had (with the exception of WDAY), so I will leave it as is. If the issue is the signals tonight, I will hold off on other changes until tomorrow night.


Are others seeing the same issues in reception tonight?

For some reason, Media Center doesn't get the right physical location for WDAY, so you have to change it to this to receive their signal....... when the signal is back, that is.
 
#1,150 ·
The WDAY DT stations are back this morning, but the KVRR-DT signal is still in and out. Now I'm getting worried because of football season being here. Yeah, I can still watch the games on the analog signal, but that's not as good. There is ghosting on our TV, probably because the antenna is pointed to the northwest instead of towards the KVRR tower.
 
#1,151 ·
Hey, DirectorFlik, is KVRR aware that their digital signal is not as strong since the rain we had the other night? I can get it on the HDTV, but not on the converter boxes or on my computer. It's weak on the TV, becomes pixelized at times, and even drops out altogether at times. I'm just wondering if KVRR is aware of this and working on the problem.
 
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