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post #9301 of 10338 Old 10-06-2012, 10:29 PM
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888CALLFCC - Roy said earlier that he has LOS to Walnut Grove. Even though I find it hard to believe, my friend in Placerville also has LOS to Walnut Grove and suffers from multipath issues.

I could speculate on the reasons, but the problem seems to lie in the fact that we are at a higher elevation than the transmitter antennas and that is causing strange problems. Moving the antennas might fix the "problem of the moment" but the new location will likely be bad under slightly different conditions. I've had my antennas in 3 different locations and all the stations act differently in different locations. There is no magic spot in our situation.

Roy - Honestly, 99% reception is pretty good in your situation. That's about what I say I have here. Can you switch to the SF stations when there is a problem? That's what my friend does up there. The SF stations are not useable here but I can get NBC and ABC on KSBW essentially 100% and FOX on KCBA 99%. CBS is the only major network that I don't have a reliable back-up for. KION is too weak and has co-channel problems with KEMO. PBS is virtually 100% with KVIE.

Somehow I missed it along the way. What antenna did you split into 2 parts? I see you talk about the Clearstream 2 but what about VHF? Personally I think the 91XG is much better than the Clearstream 2.

Chuck
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post #9302 of 10338 Old 10-07-2012, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Right after I made my last post I received some spectrum analyzer images from my friend in Placerville using my analyzer. I've attached two below; KOVR at 539 MHz and KTXL at 629 MHz. KTXL is his best station I think and KOVR has the worst dropout problem. The KOVR image was taken when it was pixelating. Assuming that -80 dBm is a conservative minimum level for reception, then KOVR still had a noise margin of 35 dB. The problem has to be multipath. On UHF he is using an old CM4251 (7' dish) at 100' in a pine tree.

You said your friend has dropout problems on KVOR. I think he is having an adjacent channel interference problem. The analyzer picture shows the signal level of the adjacent channel is only 20 dB down. The ATSC specification states that the the tuner should function properly with adjacent signal levels 33 dB or more down for weak and moderate desired signal levels.

EDIT, I made an error, should have said 33 dB stronger than the desired signal. The adjacent channel shown should not cause interference to KVOR.
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post #9303 of 10338 Old 10-07-2012, 05:32 PM
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KTFK is adjacent to KOVR. Its antenna is on the same tower but is weaker than KOVR in the foothills because it has an antenna directional up and down the valley. It's no problem to receive it even though it's weaker and adjacent to KOVR.

Chuck
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post #9304 of 10338 Old 10-09-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

888CALLFCC - Roy said earlier that he has LOS to Walnut Grove. Even though I find it hard to believe, my friend in Placerville also has LOS to Walnut Grove and suffers from multipath issues.
I could speculate on the reasons, but the problem seems to lie in the fact that we are at a higher elevation than the transmitter antennas and that is causing strange problems. Moving the antennas might fix the "problem of the moment" but the new location will likely be bad under slightly different conditions. I've had my antennas in 3 different locations and all the stations act differently in different locations. There is no magic spot in our situation.
Roy - Honestly, 99% reception is pretty good in your situation. That's about what I say I have here. Can you switch to the SF stations when there is a problem? That's what my friend does up there. The SF stations are not useable here but I can get NBC and ABC on KSBW essentially 100% and FOX on KCBA 99%. CBS is the only major network that I don't have a reliable back-up for. KION is too weak and has co-channel problems with KEMO. PBS is virtually 100% with KVIE.
Somehow I missed it along the way. What antenna did you split into 2 parts? I see you talk about the Clearstream 2 but what about VHF? Personally I think the 91XG is much better than the Clearstream 2.
Chuck
Chuck, same advice I give our viewers. I totally agree.

Bob
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post #9305 of 10338 Old 10-09-2012, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredengineer View Post

You said your friend has dropout problems on KVOR. I think he is having an adjacent channel interference problem. The analyzer picture shows the signal level of the adjacent channel is only 20 dB down. The ATSC specification states that the the tuner should function properly with adjacent signal levels 33 dB or more down for weak and moderate desired signal levels.
EDIT, I made an error, should have said 33 dB stronger than the desired signal. The adjacent channel shown should not cause interference to KVOR.
Adjacent channel is not a problem for us but with a 1 MW signal, bouncing all around the granite mountains to the east of those living in the foothills, an antenna with a good front-to-back ratio is essential. The temperature inversions over the valley also create havoc with the local signals for those living in the foothills above the inversion layer. This especially affects the higher power UHF channels.

Bob
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post #9306 of 10338 Old 10-12-2012, 10:53 PM
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KMAX is on site back-up tonight. I can always tell because the SNR is very low and all the other stations are good.

Edit: Sunday morning and KMAX is still on the back-up site. What happened to it Bob?

Chuck
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post #9307 of 10338 Old 10-15-2012, 05:02 PM
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KMAX is on site back-up tonight. I can always tell because the SNR is very low and all the other stations are good.
Edit: Sunday morning and KMAX is still on the back-up site. What happened to it Bob?
Chuck
Nothing.

Richland Tower did a transmission and multiplexer test of the system. All stations on the master antenna needed to be off of it.

Bob
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post #9308 of 10338 Old 10-20-2012, 06:33 PM
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ABC audio- Seems like every year I complain. Here we go again... Are they using "circle surround" for prime time and KXTV is converting to 5.1DD? Why is the center channel dialogue so muffled? Sometimes I can barely make out the dialog during the shows like-
Revenge
666 Park Ave
Once Upon A Time
Castle

The commercials during these programs seem fine, the local KXTV news seems fine, and all the 150 other Tv channels I have seem fine. I have turned the center channel on my system up and it doesn't seem to help. Do I go back to R/L analog - Pro Logic just to hear ABC prime time shows clearly?
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post #9309 of 10338 Old 10-20-2012, 07:51 PM
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I don't know what is causing this ABC audio problem, but it is not unique to KXTV. It sounds the same on KABC in L.A. It's so bad, I gave up on ABC -- The only thing I want to see is Modern Family, so I bought the season on iTunes. Not only does it sound great, but it looks better than what I get OTA as well (no visible compression artifacts, higher resolution).
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post #9310 of 10338 Old 10-20-2012, 09:41 PM
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I wonder why there aren't more widespread complaints. Maybe both our stations use the same audio equipment. Maybe it's time for a national thread.
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post #9311 of 10338 Old 10-21-2012, 01:12 AM
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I have wondered why there was no national thread for this problem. It's got to be coming from ABC like this, based on the clues I have gathered. How this can go unnoticed at the network level is beyond me. It feels like I've put cotton in my ears -- as you said, very muffled and often unintelligible. No problem with the commercials though (figures).
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post #9312 of 10338 Old 10-21-2012, 04:33 PM
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I've been reporting this for a couple of years. Actually the dialog on the shows mentioned is not that low, it's just being overpowered by the background noise and or soundtrack sound level which is too loud. Rest assured this is a  ABC or KXTV problem rather than our equipment being at fault. Castle is the worst, especially in the squad room where the background noise seems to be more important than anything Castle or Beckett is saying. mad.gif

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post #9313 of 10338 Old 10-22-2012, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
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I've been reporting this for a couple of years. Actually the dialog on the shows mentioned is not that low, it's just being overpowered by the background noise and or soundtrack sound level which is too loud.

I haven't noticed the dialog sounding low -- it's just plain muffled as though there is phase cancellation at the high frequencies. This makes it difficult to understand as there are no sibilants. Do you think the overpowering background noise/soundtrack is due to audio processing? I can hear a lot of AGC at work on KXTV -- as soon as there is any lack of dialog or other anchor element, the background sound swells to maximum volume. This does not happen on KABC, so it is being induced locally.
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post #9314 of 10338 Old 10-22-2012, 01:23 AM
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I just watched "666 Park Avenue" on KGO 7 and it sounded fine here. I don't watch a lot of ABC shows, so I can't tell you about the others, but "666 Park Avenue" has been fine in recent weeks.

If you can tune in KGO, compare what you hear there to what you're hearing on KXTV and KABC.

Local news audio sounds fine on KGO as well.

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post #9315 of 10338 Old 10-22-2012, 02:27 AM
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If you can tune in KGO, compare what you hear there to what you're hearing on KXTV and KABC.

I'll check out some shows later this week. Last time I checked, KGO sounded horrible (to me) -- very heavily compressed (not as bad as KPIX, but a close second), but that's unrelated to the ABC problem ...
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post #9316 of 10338 Old 10-23-2012, 02:03 PM
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What happens if you switch to stereo?
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post #9317 of 10338 Old 10-23-2012, 03:11 PM
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What happens if you switch to stereo?

I don't know about the others, but I am only listening in stereo ...
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post #9318 of 10338 Old 10-29-2012, 08:26 AM
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Is this ABC problem only apparent in Surround Sound? I only listen in stereo. I checked ABC last night on KXTV, KGO and KSBW. I could tell no difference between the 3 stations and I had no trouble understanding the speech. I do remember a few times last year when KXTV was missing the speech for a portion of the program but I have not heard that this year so far.

Chuck
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post #9319 of 10338 Old 10-29-2012, 11:01 AM
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Gentlemen, is there talk of the majors (not cbs or nbc) boosting their resolution 720p is ok but frankly sucks, I have a big screen projection system and you really see the difference between 13 and 40 network shows especially sports, When in Local mode what resolution are our stations broadcasting in please THANKS
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post #9320 of 10338 Old 10-29-2012, 02:07 PM
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KOVR and KMAX are 1080I, 24/7. Absolutely no plans to change this.
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post #9321 of 10338 Old 10-29-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Is this ABC problem only apparent in Surround Sound? I only listen in stereo. I checked ABC last night on KXTV, KGO and KSBW. I could tell no difference between the 3 stations and I had no trouble understanding the speech. I do remember a few times last year when KXTV was missing the speech for a portion of the program but I have not heard that this year so far.
Chuck

For whatever reason, the problem was not present this week. Hopefully this means ABC fixed it ... only time will tell.
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post #9322 of 10338 Old 10-29-2012, 02:54 PM
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Gentlemen, is there talk of the majors (not cbs or nbc) boosting their resolution 720p is ok but frankly sucks, I have a big screen projection system and you really see the difference between 13 and 40 network shows especially sports, When in Local mode what resolution are our stations broadcasting in please THANKS

I have not heard any plans for FOX or ABC to switch to 1080i. KTXL and KXTV remain in 720p for local programming, as do virtually all affiliates of FOX and ABC -- you would not want to switch resolutions when going in and out of network programming. For what it's worth, I completely agree -- 1080i is visually superior. Some have argued that 720p is better for sports, but I have never found that to be the case.
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post #9323 of 10338 Old 10-30-2012, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Is this ABC problem only apparent in Surround Sound?
Correct, the problem was never there when I watched on a regular Tv (direct antenna or hdmi from Tivo or Dish box to Tv, no external sound system). But was always there when I watched on my main system (Tivo box or Dish OTA box or HTPC OTA/clearQAM Card component video to Tv + spdif to AV Receiver 5.1 mode lit up).

Someone must have been listening, because this week's Castle was clearer than I have EVER heard it.
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post #9324 of 10338 Old 10-31-2012, 07:01 PM
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I hadn't thought about but you're right. I didn't notice it on the weeks Castle either. Cross our fingers.
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post #9325 of 10338 Old 11-07-2012, 12:14 PM
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OTA DVR

A few years ago, when the Dish DTVPal DVR came out, some of the guys here got it and reported on its performance. Shortly thereafter, it went mfr-discontinued, even though it worked rather well, as I recall from the comments.

So, is there a recommendation for an alternate? Another OTA DVR with good specs, performance, reliability?

Tks,
--Ron
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post #9326 of 10338 Old 11-07-2012, 05:13 PM
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Ron, as far as I know, there are NO off the shelf DVRs available for OTA reception now unless you get one from Dish, DirecTV or Tivo. You'd think some manufacturer would be able to make a killing with a good quality DVR with a sensitive receiver, but I haven't heard of any.

Good luck!

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post #9327 of 10338 Old 11-07-2012, 05:36 PM
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Magnavox has a couple on their website. I have no clue if the tuners are any good. Looks like Walmart is the only place that carries them online.

http://www.magnavox.com/product/player.php?category[]=21
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post #9328 of 10338 Old 11-07-2012, 05:59 PM
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I've been using a Mac mini and Elgato's EyeTV software and tuner hardware for years to record OTA TV.
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post #9329 of 10338 Old 11-07-2012, 07:15 PM
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Do you already have a pc with windows media center on it KG07R?

adding a hdhomerun dual tuner to it = roughly $150
get an old xbox 360 for under $100 as a media center extender, and one of the old white media center remotes for about $10 and your all ready to plug in and enjoy a really good ota set up with no monthly fees on your (hd)tv.

whereas a tivo premiere with lifetime service is upwards of $700 at least and is much more costly to expand. even if you had to buy a pc with windows 7 youd still be ahead of going the tivo route.
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post #9330 of 10338 Old 11-08-2012, 09:56 AM
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Oh my Friends there is something new and only $99.00

http://www.boxee.tv/

the New Boxee TV
Boxee's revolutionary No Limits DVR is the first cloud DVR ever - that means all of your shows are stored in the Cloud and ready to watch whenever you want.
Connect Boxee to your cable outlet or use a digital antenna to get shows for free.*Enjoy shows and movies from top Apps. Thousands to choose from. Pay just for what you watch

just ordered mine will review when it gets here Thanks BUD
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