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post #10501 of 10536 Old 02-05-2016, 09:44 AM
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One virtual channel, two actual channels:

I ran into this issue on another forum, and I bet someone here has the answer. Rabbitears shows WBBM, ch. "2" in Chicago as transmitting on both 12 and 26. If that means they are simulcasting, then......

1. How does the ATSC tuner know which channel to lock onto.?
2. If the tuner is seeing both channels simultaneously, would the two identical signals on two differing frequencies give each other phase distortion?
3. Any other insight as to how a station does this? (Same content on two or more actual channels and one virtual channel.)

Many thanks,
--Ron
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post #10502 of 10536 Old 02-05-2016, 10:22 AM
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WBBM 12 is 2-1 and 2-2, while WBBM 26 is 2-11 and 2-12. No conflict.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #10503 of 10536 Old 02-05-2016, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
WBBM 12 is 2-1 and 2-2, while WBBM 26 is 2-11 and 2-12. No conflict.

- Trip
Ah, right, I should've clicked WBBM to see the detail. Suspicions confirmed: different subchannels. Thanks.
(Side note: interesting what they've done there: main CBS feed in HD and one SD aux feed on VHF, then the same CBS and aux feeds on UHF.)
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post #10504 of 10536 Old 02-06-2016, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by KG7OR View Post
Ah, right, I should've clicked WBBM to see the detail. Suspicions confirmed: different subchannels. Thanks.
(Side note: interesting what they've done there: main CBS feed in HD and one SD aux feed on VHF, then the same CBS and aux feeds on UHF.)
Here in the SF Bay Area there are a couple of different combinations:

14-1 (RF 51) KDTV Univision
14-2 (RF 51) KFSF Unimas

66-1 (RF 34) KFSF Unimas
66-2 (RF 34) KDTV Univision

These stations have other programming on their -3 and -4 sub-channels.

11-1 (RF 12) KNTV NBC
11-2 (RF 12) Cozi TV
48-3 (RF 12) KSTS Telemundo

48-1 (RF 49 KSTS Telemundo
48-2 (RF 49 Exitos
11-3 (RF 49) KNTV NBC

With both of these combinations, you can watch both stations even if you only receive one over the air.

KTFK 64 (RF 26) Sacramento and KUVS (RF 18) Modesto have an arrangement like KNTV/KSTS for their -2 sub-channels.
There are probably several other combinations of stations like this. And wait until after the re-pack when several stations might be sharing channels.

Larry

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post #10505 of 10536 Old 02-10-2016, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KG7OR View Post
One virtual channel, two actual channels:

I ran into this issue on another forum, and I bet someone here has the answer. Rabbitears shows WBBM, ch. "2" in Chicago as transmitting on both 12 and 26. If that means they are simulcasting, then......

1. How does the ATSC tuner know which channel to lock onto.?
2. If the tuner is seeing both channels simultaneously, would the two identical signals on two differing frequencies give each other phase distortion?
3. Any other insight as to how a station does this? (Same content on two or more actual channels and one virtual channel.)

Many thanks,
--Ron

It depends on how the software is written. My Sony TV will keep the last real channel it found. For example in the Bay Area if you could receive KGO on RF 7 and RF 35 it would use VC 7 and RC 35 since it found 35 last.

The tuner cannot see two stations at the same time so there's no issue with one interfering with the other. Maybe what you're thinking of is DTS that has multiple transmitters on the same channel. There can be interference issues but they try to engineer it so that few locations can receive multiple transmitters. KEMO is running such a system on channel 32 with a transmitter on Mt. St. Helena and one on Sutro Tower.

Chuck
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post #10506 of 10536 Old 02-10-2016, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KG7OR View Post
One virtual channel, two actual channels:

I ran into this issue on another forum, and I bet someone here has the answer. Rabbitears shows WBBM, ch. "2" in Chicago as transmitting on both 12 and 26. If that means they are simulcasting, then......

1. How does the ATSC tuner know which channel to lock onto.?
2. If the tuner is seeing both channels simultaneously, would the two identical signals on two differing frequencies give each other phase distortion?
3. Any other insight as to how a station does this? (Same content on two or more actual channels and one virtual channel.)

Many thanks,
--Ron
1. Both, unless the tuner chokes. It depends on the tuner.
2. No chance of that.
3. They do it the same way that they've done translators for decades with analog, then for digital over the last decade or so.
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post #10507 of 10536 Old 02-10-2016, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
There can be interference issues but they try to engineer it so that few locations can receive multiple transmitters. KEMO is running such a system on channel 32 with a transmitter on Mt. St. Helena and one on Sutro Tower.

Chuck
I'm seeing some type of "embedded code" with KEMO. So moving the antenna to the other transmitter won't work. (Unless you do a full re-scan)
To switch between SF Sutro and Mt. St. Helena I must re-scan. Simply moving the antenna won't work.
Like some type of electronic key.
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post #10508 of 10536 Old 02-11-2016, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post
I'm seeing some type of "embedded code" with KEMO. So moving the antenna to the other transmitter won't work. (Unless you do a full re-scan)
To switch between SF Sutro and Mt. St. Helena I must re-scan. Simply moving the antenna won't work.
Like some type of electronic key.

I don't think this has anything to do with KEMO itself. Sounds like this is how the software is written for your TV. If I point to KEMO and enter 50.1 I'll get KEMO on 32. If I move the antenna to Salinas I'll get KION on 32 with no rescanning.

Chuck
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post #10509 of 10536 Old 02-22-2016, 06:38 AM
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After being off the air since last May, KMMW is back on the air. Everything seems to be the same with it.

Chuck
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post #10510 of 10536 Old 02-24-2016, 07:49 AM
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KAHC & KFKK

As of Tuesday Feb. 23 these two stations are supposed to be on the air. KAHC is the digital version of the old K45HC and is licensed to transmit 2KW on channel 45 at only 50' from Walnut Grove. Its pattern points towards Sacramento. KFKK is a new station in Stockton licensed for 5KW on channel 32 with an antenna about 60' above the ground. It's pattern points NNW. These are both DTV America stations.

Can anyone receive these stations? I can only see KBCW on 45 and KEMO on 32. It wouldn't surprise me if these stations weren't actually on the air.

Chuck
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post #10511 of 10536 Old 03-01-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
KAHC & KFKK

As of Tuesday Feb. 23 these two stations are supposed to be on the air. KAHC is the digital version of the old K45HC and is licensed to transmit 2KW on channel 45 at only 50' from Walnut Grove. Its pattern points towards Sacramento. KFKK is a new station in Stockton licensed for 5KW on channel 32 with an antenna about 60' above the ground. It's pattern points NNW. These are both DTV America stations.

Can anyone receive these stations? I can only see KBCW on 45 and KEMO on 32. It wouldn't surprise me if these stations weren't actually on the air.

Chuck
I just looked at channel 45 with my spectrum analyzer and see no hint of any signal there in Fair Oaks. I would wonder if having a full power station on the next channel up with a lower shoulder about 40 dB down from the in band power would kill reception of 45 for most people anyway. The 46 lower shoulder is well into channel 45.

Rory

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post #10512 of 10536 Old 03-01-2016, 01:12 PM
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I just looked at channel 45 with my spectrum analyzer and see no hint of any signal there in Fair Oaks. I would wonder if having a full power station on the next channel up with a lower shoulder about 40 dB down from the in band power would kill reception of 45 for most people anyway. The 46 lower shoulder is well into channel 45.

Rory

I wonder if this is just another play by an LPTV station to lay a claim to a channel before the start of the auction?

Chuck
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post #10513 of 10536 Old 03-01-2016, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I wonder if this is just another play by an LPTV station to lay a claim to a channel before the start of the auction?

Chuck
It is my understanding that LPTV is considered a secondary service and has no guaranteed spectrum rights. At present only full power and class A stations can participate in the auction. I believe there is legal action going on by the LPTV folks trying to change that.

Rory

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post #10514 of 10536 Old 03-01-2016, 09:38 PM
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I just looked at where channel 45 should be and now do see what I assume is a pilot at 656.3094 MHz. I still see no signal at all other than the pilot which is 46 dB weaker than the pilot from KQCA.

Rory

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post #10515 of 10536 Old 03-02-2016, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Rory Boyce View Post
I just looked at where channel 45 should be and now do see what I assume is a pilot at 656.3094 MHz. I still see no signal at all other than the pilot which is 46 dB weaker than the pilot from KQCA.

Rory
Of course KBCW is on 45 so you may see that. I can receive it most of the time at my place.

Chuck
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post #10516 of 10536 Old 03-02-2016, 09:08 PM
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Of course KBCW is on 45 so you may see that. I can receive it most of the time at my place.

Chuck
I looks like you are correct. The pilot that I was seeing yesterday is now gone.

Rory
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post #10517 of 10536 Old 03-29-2016, 09:30 AM
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KMMW Off the Air Again

That didn't last long. After being back for a month, it's been gone for at least a week again.

4/9/16: It's back!

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 04-09-2016 at 02:45 PM.
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post #10518 of 10536 Old 04-01-2016, 07:55 AM
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KAHC

KAHC 45 has submitted another application for 15KW on a tower located at the intersection of N. Market Blvd and N. Freeway Blvd in Sacramento.

Edit: The FCC has granted this application.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 04-05-2016 at 07:57 AM.
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post #10519 of 10536 Old 04-20-2016, 02:21 PM
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Autoscans and rotors

This came up some time back, maybe a couple years ago or so--I'm wondering if there's a better answer today. In our area, it's possible to get channels from various directions with a good antenna and a rotor. So let's say I point the antenna south, do an autoscan, and capture a few channels. I then swing it west and do another autoscan to get some Bay Area channels. But the new autoscan wipes out the channels from the south that I'd previously locked. To get them back, I'd need to do another autoscan, wiping out my Bay Area channels. A vicious circle.

Is it possible to do all that in a way that doesn't lose channels when you turn the antenna? An autoscan that adds any new receivable channels without dumping those previously locked?
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post #10520 of 10536 Old 04-20-2016, 06:16 PM
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Is it possible to do all that in a way that doesn't lose channels when you turn the antenna?
You have to buy a TV set that has the capability to either do additional additive scans or allows direct channel entry via the remote.

If you already have a TV that doesn't support these features, you're SOL in regards to that TV set.
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post #10521 of 10536 Old 04-20-2016, 09:45 PM
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You have to buy a TV set that has the capability to either do additional additive scans or allows direct channel entry via the remote.

If you already have a TV that doesn't support these features, you're SOL in regards to that TV set.
Right, that's more or less obvious. Question is, do such TVs or outboard tuners exist? Anyone know of an example?
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post #10522 of 10536 Old 04-20-2016, 11:46 PM
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I have two Sonys... an old one and a new one... and a Vizio... and all three allow me to "Add Digital Channels" in the menu without destroying the existing list.

I have a Panasonic in the bedroom that works exactly like yours where it wipes out the existing list when it scans. It's impossible to have a complete list of stations on that TV because we receive stations from several different directions.

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post #10523 of 10536 Old 04-21-2016, 06:01 AM
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I have two Sonys... an old one and a new one... and a Vizio... and all three allow me to "Add Digital Channels" in the menu without destroying the existing list......
Thanks Larry, that helps. A contact on another forum was asking about specific sets that could do it. I'll pass along your experience.
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post #10524 of 10536 Old 04-21-2016, 07:16 AM
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We're coming up on 7 years after the digital transition and the TV manufacturers still haven't figured out how to implement channel scanning correctly. It's completely ridiculous that any TV doesn't have an add channel function. And then there's more subtle issues. My old Sony could handle two different virtual channels that had the same real channel but not two stations using the same virtual channel and different real channels. My new Sony is exactly the opposite. The new Sony also has other other virtual channel table issues. Sometimes it makes changes on the fly. For example, if I have KRON scanned in, then tune to VC 12 KTVJ and then go back to KRON 4.1, the entry is deleted. The TV tunes to RF 4 instead of 38. What's up with that?

Chuck

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post #10525 of 10536 Old 04-22-2016, 12:22 AM
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The new Sony also has other other virtual channel table issues. Sometimes it makes changes on the fly. For example, if I have KRON scanned in, then tune to VC 12 KTVJ and then go back to KRON 4.1, the entry is deleted. The TV tunes to RF 4 instead of 38. What's up with that?
Chuck
I sure don't like the fact that your new Sony is deleting channels from the list, like the KRON 4 vs KTVJ RF4, when it finds a conflict. That could completely mess up someone's channel listing in this area, when you have combinations like KTVJ 12 on 4, KRON 4 on 38 and KCNS 38 on 39, KDTV 14 on 51, KTNC 42 on 14 and KAXT 1 on 42, KBCW 45 on 44 and KTVU 44 on 2, and so on. You'd think the manufacturers would be aware of these scenarios by now!

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post #10526 of 10536 Old 04-22-2016, 02:08 PM
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KCSO-LD RF 3 Angels Camp has filed an application with the FCC to move to the KCRA tower in Walnut Grove. The antenna would be side mounted at 1466'. It is the same antenna as they are using now except the antenna would be pointed east instead of west.

LPTV stations around here have had a poor track record of actually constructing stations so I don't know if they intend to construct the station if approved or whether this is just a paperwork maneuver.

Chuck

Edit: Looks like KCSO its serious about moving to Walnut Grove. They had to request a waiver of the FCC 30 mile move limit rule. The case is laid out here:

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...541afc2c813133

If the FCC approves it I'm betting it will happen.

Last edited by Calaveras; 04-28-2016 at 07:26 AM.
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post #10527 of 10536 Old 04-27-2016, 06:00 PM
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Lightbulb Worth Aiming at Sutro

Hi Folks,

Just bought a house and am excited to get on the room and (finally) properly install an antenna here in Tahoe Park, Sacramento. I can't embed a link to my tv fool report, but the zip code is 95820 and the expected elevation of the antenna is 18'.When we first moved to Sacramento, I was surprised that in setting up a clear channel 2V (with the VHF add on) on the floor in my living room and I was shocked that the SF channels from Sutro Tower came in fairly well most evenings. My question is do other folks around Sacramento manage to regularly pull these stations? Is it worth aiming the antenna at Sutro since the Sacramento channels are so easy to receive at my location? I've never had any luck with Chico stations...

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Owen
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post #10528 of 10536 Old 04-27-2016, 09:55 PM
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Hi Folks,

Just bought a house and am excited to get on the room and (finally) properly install an antenna here in Tahoe Park, Sacramento. I can't embed a link to my tv fool report, but the zip code is 95820 and the expected elevation of the antenna is 18'.When we first moved to Sacramento, I was surprised that in setting up a clear channel 2V (with the VHF add on) on the floor in my living room and I was shocked that the SF channels from Sutro Tower came in fairly well most evenings. My question is do other folks around Sacramento manage to regularly pull these stations? Is it worth aiming the antenna at Sutro since the Sacramento channels are so easy to receive at my location? I've never had any luck with Chico stations...

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Owen
Some members on this forum use 2 or 3 antennas with an A/B switch to swap between antenna cables.
Or you can use an antenna rotor (spinner) with just one antenna.

Not all Sacramento neighborhoods have that "open window" of signals like you do. Your tvfool report is one of the better ones I've seen.

You will not get Chico for the simple fact that there is no more capacity in the "Over the air" tv spectrum for your location, .. for you to get it.
Meaning= Sutro Tower uses the same channel UHF-VHF slots as distant markets such as the Chico-Redding market area.
Those stations would likely appear if San Francisco has a power outage that wipes out power to Sutro tower. Or something like that.

The 2V antenna you have (as far as antenna models go) is a very small, wimpy antenna. Not very directional.
The larger the antenna model generally equals more gain & direction.
So anything bigger (such as an 8 bay) model would improve reliability dramatically.

Your tvfool report shows the entire list of channels "is possible" at your location.
The ones with "Co channel warning" (the red icon to the left) would be the most difficult as far as reliability, etc.
Good luck!
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post #10529 of 10536 Old 04-28-2016, 07:01 AM
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Hi Folks,

Just bought a house and am excited to get on the room and (finally) properly install an antenna here in Tahoe Park, Sacramento. I can't embed a link to my tv fool report, but the zip code is 95820 and the expected elevation of the antenna is 18'.When we first moved to Sacramento, I was surprised that in setting up a clear channel 2V (with the VHF add on) on the floor in my living room and I was shocked that the SF channels from Sutro Tower came in fairly well most evenings. My question is do other folks around Sacramento manage to regularly pull these stations? Is it worth aiming the antenna at Sutro since the Sacramento channels are so easy to receive at my location? I've never had any luck with Chico stations...

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Owen

As pointed out you can improve the reliability of reception with a larger antenna but it's unlikely you can ever get 100% reception at that distance from Sutro Tower due to changing atmospheric conditions. If you do upgrade your UHF antenna to a DB8 or 91XG be sure to also get a real VHF antenna for channels 7 and 11. You might even see KSBW on 8.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...-2476-/30-2476

If you post your TV Fool link with spaces we can fix it for you or PM Dr. Don to add it to your post.

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post #10530 of 10536 Old 04-29-2016, 12:08 AM
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Location: solano county
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Heroes and Icons is now channel 10-3. It had Xena and Hercules this afternoon. Westerns and Crime programs are also offered from what I've learned so far.
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