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post #10561 of 10576 Old 07-18-2016, 03:56 PM
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Thanks, Chuck, for the information and input!


I have a lot to learn about this DTV stuff! For example, I am rather lost regarding your statement that "The most important thing for reception of 1 and2 edge signals is that your antenna has line-of-sight to the closest edge." I did read a little about what 1 and 2 edge mean, but have no clue how to identify the "closest edge." My property, luckily, is pretty devoid of tall trees and my antenna on the roof has pretty good view toward the Walnut Grove Towers. Using Google Earth's elevation and line tools, I can see that there are no taller hills on my direct line of sight to those towers.


On my way home from work Friday, before seeing your post, I stopped and purchased a ClearStream 4V antenna from Best Buy and mounted it on my roof on a short 30" J-mount. I am pretty impressed with the results. All weekend I had good reception of both Sacramento and Bay Area stations.


I still can't get KXTV (Ch 10, Sacramento) at all even though my signal meter shows a 85-95% signal (haven't checked yet on your suggestion that FM stations might interfere with channels 9-10). I do get good reception on Channel 6 (KVIE), another Hi-VHF station. Not getting Ch. 10 may not be an issue if I can get ABC on alternative UHF station (Ch 7, which came in OK).


As you said, the reception does come and go somewhat throughout the day, but in almost every case I was able to get the major networks via one of the stations that I was picking up.


A few questions for you:
1) Do you feel the Winegard HD7698P is a lot better than the 4V? I love the small footprint of the 4V and if it will work for me, especially if I add an amp, then I wouldn't want to switch to something a lot bigger unless the improvement is significant.


2) How do I source low-noise pre-amps from one-man operations? And what do you think of Antenna Direct's "Juice" preamp?


3) What is the difference between a pre-amp and a distribution amp anyway? When is one a better choice than the other? I ask because the previous owner evidently had an antenna system at one point and there is already a distribution amp in my crawl space where the cables are ran to my second TV (not hooked up yet).


Thanks again for the education and help!
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post #10562 of 10576 Old 07-18-2016, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Way_Cool View Post
Thanks, Chuck, for the information and input!


I have a lot to learn about this DTV stuff! For example, I am rather lost regarding your statement that "The most important thing for reception of 1 and2 edge signals is that your antenna has line-of-sight to the closest edge." I did read a little about what 1 and 2 edge mean, but have no clue how to identify the "closest edge." My property, luckily, is pretty devoid of tall trees and my antenna on the roof has pretty good view toward the Walnut Grove Towers. Using Google Earth's elevation and line tools, I can see that there are no taller hills on my direct line of sight to those towers.


On my way home from work Friday, before seeing your post, I stopped and purchased a ClearStream 4V antenna from Best Buy and mounted it on my roof on a short 30" J-mount. I am pretty impressed with the results. All weekend I had good reception of both Sacramento and Bay Area stations.


I still can't get KXTV (Ch 10, Sacramento) at all even though my signal meter shows a 85-95% signal (haven't checked yet on your suggestion that FM stations might interfere with channels 9-10). I do get good reception on Channel 6 (KVIE), another Hi-VHF station. Not getting Ch. 10 may not be an issue if I can get ABC on alternative UHF station (Ch 7, which came in OK).


As you said, the reception does come and go somewhat throughout the day, but in almost every case I was able to get the major networks via one of the stations that I was picking up.


A few questions for you:
1) Do you feel the Winegard HD7698P is a lot better than the 4V? I love the small footprint of the 4V and if it will work for me, especially if I add an amp, then I wouldn't want to switch to something a lot bigger unless the improvement is significant.


2) How do I source low-noise pre-amps from one-man operations? And what do you think of Antenna Direct's "Juice" preamp?


3) What is the difference between a pre-amp and a distribution amp anyway? When is one a better choice than the other? I ask because the previous owner evidently had an antenna system at one point and there is already a distribution amp in my crawl space where the cables are ran to my second TV (not hooked up yet).


Thanks again for the education and help!

According to TV Fool you DON'T have line-of-sight to the transmitters. If you had LOS the Noise Margins of your stations would be around 50dB not 20 something dB. Click on the call sign of any station in your TV Fool report and it will show you terrain. I've attached the plot for KOVR with the 1st and 2nd edges marked. Looks to me that it wouldn't take much more antenna height to get above the 2nd edge. For successful reception of 1 or 2 edge signals your antenna needs to be able to see the closest edge. Additional obstacles such as trees and building attenuate the signal even more than TV Fool shows. In every case that I've personally seen where the antenna has true LOS to the closest edge reception has been successful.

In almost every case the Signal Meter is a Signal Quality meter and not a Signal Strength meter. If you have just one meter then it's an SQ meter (Signal-to-Noise Ratio). 85% to 95% is normally a good number and you should have no problem. How does that compare to the other stations?

The 4V may be good enough for you on UHF but it's severely lacking on high VHF. It's intended for reception in strong signal areas when just about anything will work. You can use a separate VHF antenna. This should be good enough:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...eo+retargeting

The HD7698P will give you equal VHF/UHF performance.

The Clearstream Juice is a good preamp and has better than average overload characteristics for stronger signal areas. The two one-man operations are Kitztech (KT-200 is the best):

http://www.kitztech.com/

and Jan Jenca from Europe:

http://www.antenne-komponenty.eu/eng...zlucovace.html

A preamp is intended to be mounted at the antenna and has enough gain to overcome coax loss and often a 2-way splitter. A distribution amp is usually lower gain and is intended to overcome the splitter loss and short coax runs. Sometimes a distribution amp can be used as a preamp.

BTW, please refrain from all the HTML formatting. It makes it really hard to read the text when responding and the forum doesn't require it.

Chuck
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Last edited by Calaveras; 07-18-2016 at 06:58 PM.
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post #10563 of 10576 Old 07-19-2016, 07:29 AM
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KAHC-LD

KAHC-LD is on the air and is transmitting 15KW from Sacramento. I've been having a hard time with KBCW the last few days so I looked at it on the spectrum analyzer and saw a good signal on RF 45 but it wouldn't decode. Then it dawned on me that maybe KAHC was on the air. Sure enough, moving the antenna to 300 degrees to downtown Sacramento showed another signal. I did a rescan on the TV and found these channels for KAHC. The subchannels are not a mistake.

45.1001 - Laff TV
45.1002 - Test Pattern
45.1003 - Cozi TV
45.1004 - LCHD
45.1005 - QVC
45.1006 - QVC Plus

They may be using these high sub channel numbers to avoid a conflict with KFTY-LD which is also using virtual channel 45.

The signal is surprisingly strong here for the low power, the low antenna and all the hills in the way. At one point it reached SNR 30 dB. It's almost as strong as KQCA and far less mulitpath.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 07-19-2016 at 08:28 AM.
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post #10564 of 10576 Old 08-31-2016, 07:20 AM
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KAHC is now using virtual channel 43.1 through 43.6. No more 1001 - 1006. K46LG in Salinas also uses VC 43 but that should not be a conflict for anyone up here.

Chuck
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post #10565 of 10576 Old 08-31-2016, 11:17 AM
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Ktxl

KTXL filed an STA with the FCC (has now been granted) because they are having trouble with the transmission line to their main antenna and they are using a backup transmitter and antenna. They are currently running 94KW instead of the usual 1000KW. Due to antenna pattern differences that amounts to only 4 dB less signal here and I didn't even notice the change. Some of you might be seeing 10 dB less signal. If you're having trouble with KTXL this is why. They say it's going to take 4 weeks to repair.

KTXL was briefly off the air around 11 am this morning.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 08-31-2016 at 01:48 PM.
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post #10566 of 10576 Old 08-31-2016, 04:12 PM
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Busy day today. I just noticed KVIE is off the air. Since KVIE/KTXL are on the same tower it must have something to do with the KTXL problem.

Chuck
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post #10567 of 10576 Old 09-02-2016, 11:56 PM
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Anyone know what is going on with KCRA (3.1) OTA? Starting approximately at the beginning of the Olympics, the streaming is sometime very choppy or stops and starts, when using Windows Media Center combined with my Haupauge external TV tuner, and indoor TV antennae.


I live near Elk Grove.

The problem does not exist on either of the network channels or their substations, just KCRA. It is fine with my external OTA antenna connected to my DirecTV receiver connected to my plasma. Sucks because I like to record certain HD programs to Blu-Ray, including the top Olympic events. Thanks!

Last edited by igreg; 09-03-2016 at 12:14 AM.
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post #10568 of 10576 Old 09-03-2016, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Way_Cool View Post
Thanks, Chuck, for the information and input!


I have a lot to learn about this DTV stuff! For example, I am rather lost regarding your statement that "The most important thing for reception of 1 and2 edge signals is that your antenna has line-of-sight to the closest edge." I did read a little about what 1 and 2 edge mean, but have no clue how to identify the "closest edge." My property, luckily, is pretty devoid of tall trees and my antenna on the roof has pretty good view toward the Walnut Grove Towers. Using Google Earth's elevation and line tools, I can see that there are no taller hills on my direct line of sight to those towers.


On my way home from work Friday, before seeing your post, I stopped and purchased a ClearStream 4V antenna from Best Buy and mounted it on my roof on a short 30" J-mount. I am pretty impressed with the results. All weekend I had good reception of both Sacramento and Bay Area stations.


I still can't get KXTV (Ch 10, Sacramento) at all even though my signal meter shows a 85-95% signal (haven't checked yet on your suggestion that FM stations might interfere with channels 9-10). I do get good reception on Channel 6 (KVIE), another Hi-VHF station. Not getting Ch. 10 may not be an issue if I can get ABC on alternative UHF station (Ch 7, which came in OK).


As you said, the reception does come and go somewhat throughout the day, but in almost every case I was able to get the major networks via one of the stations that I was picking up.


A few questions for you:
1) Do you feel the Winegard HD7698P is a lot better than the 4V? I love the small footprint of the 4V and if it will work for me, especially if I add an amp, then I wouldn't want to switch to something a lot bigger unless the improvement is significant.


2) How do I source low-noise pre-amps from one-man operations? And what do you think of Antenna Direct's "Juice" preamp?


3) What is the difference between a pre-amp and a distribution amp anyway? When is one a better choice than the other? I ask because the previous owner evidently had an antenna system at one point and there is already a distribution amp in my crawl space where the cables are ran to my second TV (not hooked up yet).


Thanks again for the education and help!

I cannot receive either channel 10 or 40 OTA in my master bedroom, although I can in my living room. Perhaps a DirecTV receiver problem? The channels do not even show up when I run a scan. Both DirecTV receivers are connected to an outside OTA antenna.


I live near Elk Grove.
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post #10569 of 10576 Old 09-03-2016, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post
Anyone know what is going on with KCRA (3.1) OTA? Starting approximately at the beginning of the Olympics, the streaming is sometime very choppy or stops and starts, when using Windows Media Center combined with my Haupauge external TV tuner, and indoor TV antennae.

The problem does not exist on either of the network channels or their substations, just KCRA. It is fine with my external OTA antenna connected to my DirecTV receiver connected to my plasma. Sucks because I like to record certain HD programs to Blu-Ray, including the top Olympic events. Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by igreg View Post
I cannot receive either channel 10 or 40 OTA in my master bedroom, although I can in my living room. Perhaps a DirecTV receiver problem? The channels do not even show up when I run a scan. Both DirecTV receivers are connected to an outside OTA antenna.

I live near Elk Grove.

Elk Grove is only 12 miles from the transmitters so the signals are extremely strong. There are no issues with the stations that I know of that would affect you. I assume it's been working for a long time and suddenly started having problems? Must be something wrong with your equipment.

Chuck
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post #10570 of 10576 Old 09-04-2016, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Elk Grove is only 12 miles from the transmitters so the signals are extremely strong. There are no issues with the stations that I know of that would affect you. I assume it's been working for a long time and suddenly started having problems? Must be something wrong with your equipment.

Chuck



I would agree, just odd that only affected KCRA. I will be checking to see if the problem remains. Perhaps KCRA had some problems for a couple weeks?
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post #10571 of 10576 Old 09-04-2016, 12:51 PM
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I would agree, just odd that only affected KCRA. I will be checking to see if the problem remains. Perhaps KCRA had some problems for a couple weeks?

I watch KCRA all the time and have seen no issues that I could attribute to them.

Chuck
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post #10572 of 10576 Old 09-04-2016, 03:34 PM
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I watch KCRA all the time and have seen no issues that I could attribute to them.

Chuck


Nothing noted OTA via my external antennae via DirecTV; just with indoor antenna connected to PC. Can you recommend a good/best antenna for indoors? Thanks!
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post #10573 of 10576 Old 09-04-2016, 04:05 PM
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Over the last week or 2 channel 40 has disappeared for me too...granted i am in Concord, but I always had a great signal before.

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post #10574 of 10576 Old 09-04-2016, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post
Nothing noted OTA via my external antennae via DirecTV; just with indoor antenna connected to PC. Can you recommend a good/best antenna for indoors? Thanks!

The best indoor antenna is an antenna normally used outdoors. Most of the various incarnations of small indoor antennas are not significantly different from rabbit ears and a UHF loop.

Chuck
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post #10575 of 10576 Old 09-04-2016, 06:41 PM
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Over the last week or 2 channel 40 has disappeared for me too...granted i am in Concord, but I always had a great signal before.

The antenna pattern towards Concord has always had lower power but the temporary one is about 10 dB lower still plus the antenna is lower plus it is side mounted on the east side of the tower. I'll ask my friend in Walnut Creek if he is still receiving it. He's in a very good location.

Chuck


Edit: My friend in Walnut Creek reports KTXL was right on the cliff and wasn't watchable.
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Last edited by Calaveras; 09-10-2016 at 07:52 AM.
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post #10576 of 10576 Old 09-10-2016, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
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Nothing noted OTA via my external antennae via DirecTV; just with indoor antenna connected to PC. Can you recommend a good/best antenna for indoors? Thanks!
The best indoor antenna is one that works at the specific location. If multipath is an issue, as it is here, a higher gain (better) antenna may not work. I have a DB2e that is easily outperformed by lower gain flat panels. In one room, rabbit ears fail to receive 10 & 6. Again a flat panel (lesser) antenna does. Trial and error is the name of the game. Good Luck.
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