Johnstown, PA - HDTV - Page 34 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #991 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
slykens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: State College, Pennsylvania
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotttopic View Post

So today, Feb 5, 2007, I am officially starting the "We Need FOX in HD" campaign for Super Bowl XLII. I mean, seriously, do we have to deal with this every year?

While I am one of the toughest on our local stations for not coming up to speed and it is frustrating that WWCP isn't passing HD to their transmitter they are managed by the same company that operates WATM who made the extra effort to get HD out before the Superbowl last year. While WWCP got HD onto ABB just in time for the Superbowl in 2005 I think they will make the effort to get it on before the next Superbowl.

I'd personally prefer it for 24 at this point but in time it will work out. Keep in mind it is unlikely that WWCP will be available over the air in State College for several years.
slykens is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #992 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 06:57 AM
Member
 
pmjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaypopsu View Post

I'm just now looking at the ad ...

[...]

*HDTV broadcast signals are included with Basic Service
**To receive digital classic or premium HDTV signals a subscription to that service is required.

Hmmm ... wonder what they mean by "Basic Service"?

Given that the Super Bowl is over, I'd suspect Comcast will not be overly motivated to add CBS if they have to pay for it.
pmjoe is offline  
post #993 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 07:12 AM
Member
 
makvet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: State College
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

Hmmm ... wonder what they mean by "Basic Service"?

Given that the Super Bowl is over, I'd suspect Comcast will not be overly motivated to add CBS if they have to pay for it.


Basic service is the 12.50 / month service. It includes the networks, Discovery, TBS, some selling channels. That is about it. You do have to have a QAM tuner to get them though.
makvet is offline  
post #994 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 08:07 AM
Member
 
Steve911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bellefonte, PA
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The Superbowl has come and gone, but I still have problems with the HD local channels having audio dropouts and video freeze-ups during their primetime shows, specifically with Grey's Anatomy (ABC-HD) and Medium (NBC-HD). Since I cannot always watch certain shows at the time of the broadcast, I usually DVR them and watch them later. But the local HD channels are frustrating to watch because of the audio/video problems that occur every couple of minutes, so I usually DVR the shows on the SD channels. Seems like a waste. HBO-HD, ESPN-HD, and some of the primetime HD shows are okay (like Vegas on NBC), but others, like the ones mentioned above, I consider unwatchable. At first I thought it was were I lived in State College, but we moved to Bellefonte last year, and I have the exact same problems there.

Does anyone else have these problems on their local HD channels, or am I the only one??? I have had tech guys out, changed STB's, etc., to no avail. Just curious what others have come across in terms of audio/video drop-outs. Thanks!
Steve911 is offline  
post #995 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
slykens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: State College, Pennsylvania
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve911 View Post

Does anyone else have these problems on their local HD channels, or am I the only one??? I have had tech guys out, changed STB's, etc., to no avail. Just curious what others have come across in terms of audio/video drop-outs. Thanks!

There is a "known" problem with ABC that was really bad early in the fall. Now it is just a short breakup here and there that is bearable to me, anyway.

I don't think I've seen any kind of regular problem with NBC. I regularly watch the L&O shows and can't recall any time recently when I've even seen a breakup. That is not to say that there isn't a problem but I haven't seen it on NBC.
slykens is offline  
post #996 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 08:30 AM
Member
 
pmjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I haven't noticed any problems with NBC either, PBS is fine too. College football season is over, so I haven't been watching ABC enough to notice if the dropouts are still there (though they were in December). I know ABC's audio is still (what I'd call) out of phase for SD programs on the HD channel, and I still hate it that they stretch SD content, but I can always watch the station on the regular channel to avoid those issues. If there were any programs on ABC that I watched, I'd probably care, but there aren't (sorry ABC, sometimes that have a good Saturday night movie in HD, but that's it) so I don't notice it.
pmjoe is offline  
post #997 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 09:30 AM
Member
 
Steve911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bellefonte, PA
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the replies. I can't say I watch a lot of primetime shows, so it may just be the ones I watch (Grey's-ABC and Medium-NBC). I know Vegas and Law & Order, both NBC, are typically flawless. My wife says that Housewives-ABC also has consistent audio/video problems, and she watches it on the SD channel.

I do also remember watching Munich last month on HBO-HD, and it had about fifteen minutes of constant video and audio-dropouts. This was probably an isolated case, but it was the first time I had seen this problem on a premium channel.

I guess the real question is why are some HD programs flawless, while others have audio/video problems? Is it a Comcast problem, or is there another source?
Steve911 is offline  
post #998 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 10:37 AM
Member
 
josh1233's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well, the audio for the Superbowl was terrible. It was screwed up (for us) throughout the entire game. I ended up just listening to it through the TV's speakers, as the surrounds were wayyyyy to loud. Even though the TV's speakers, it sounded bad. You could barely make out the announcers. They should have left KDKA-HD up. I would rather have delt with a sinc problem than what was going on with the audio on WJAC-HD.


My HD box from ABB will only send a Pro Logic signal to my pre-amp. Is there a way for it to send a 5.1 signal? I can't find any options in the menu to change the audio.
josh1233 is offline  
post #999 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 04:57 PM
Member
 
psu85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Central Pa
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by josh1233 View Post

Well, the audio for the Superbowl was terrible. It was screwed up (for us) throughout the entire game. I ended up just listening to it through the TV's speakers, as the surrounds were wayyyyy to loud. Even though the TV's speakers, it sounded bad. You could barely make out the announcers. They should have left KDKA-HD up. I would rather have delt with a sinc problem than what was going on with the audio on WJAC-HD.


My HD box from ABB will only send a Pro Logic signal to my pre-amp. Is there a way for it to send a 5.1 signal? I can't find any options in the menu to change the audio.

I agree! Could not believe they turned kdka off right before the super bowl. I noticed the same audio problem on the HD basketball game on Saturday. It was ok if you weren't interested in hearing the announcers. You really have to wonder about these people and if they have any clue.

Do you have your ABB box set to Dolby Digital out?
psu85 is offline  
post #1000 of 3317 Old 02-05-2007, 07:41 PM
Member
 
josh1233's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Where would I set the audio output? I can't find anything in a menu. I have the Explorer 8300HD box. I am running the coax out to my preamp. They never gave me a manual with the box, if there even is one for it. Any help would be great.

EDIT:
Found the menu. When I set it to Digital out I do not get audio through the TV itself. I have to set it to HMDI (using HDMI cable out of the box to the TV). And when I set the box to Dolby Digital, I still only get pro logic to the reciever.
josh1233 is offline  
post #1001 of 3317 Old 02-06-2007, 05:46 AM
Member
 
deanbrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: near Altoona, PA
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm on ABB. Yes, the audio for the SB sucked. You could barely hear the announcers. You could hear the commercials OK, though. And there were entirely too many dropouts and picture freezes, as well. And what a crock to take off KDKA right before the game. I called ABB and complained about the audio and picture, for all the good that did.

I haven't watched any more programs on WTAJ-HD, although I should have a couple recorded on the DVR. I hope the audio is OK on them.
deanbrew is offline  
post #1002 of 3317 Old 02-06-2007, 10:22 AM
Member
 
josh1233's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think part of the reason the commercials sounded OK was because they were boadcast in stereo, whereas the game was broadcast in 5.1 The audio in the ads was probably screwed up too, but wasn't noticable due to the mix.
josh1233 is offline  
post #1003 of 3317 Old 02-06-2007, 12:26 PM
Member
 
cdragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was feeling stupid for getting starchoice for the game when I first saw WTAJ go HD.
Not that I wished comcast or WTAJ problems but there was little warning and I had already made other plans.

As of Atlantic pulling KDKA right before the game, they had too (FCC rules). Just as channel 13 goes blank on Comcast when the two ABC's are showing the same program. You don't think WTAJ didn't plan on that. They (management not the engineers) didn't care if their HD was all buggy, they had to get KDKA out.
cdragon is offline  
post #1004 of 3317 Old 02-07-2007, 05:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
PA_MainyYak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Johnstown, PA
Posts: 512
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdragon View Post

I was feeling stupid for getting starchoice for the game when I first saw WTAJ go HD.
Not that I wished comcast or WTAJ problems but there was little warning and I had already made other plans.

As of Atlantic pulling KDKA right before the game, they had too (FCC rules). Just as channel 13 goes blank on Comcast when the two ABC's are showing the same program. You don't think WTAJ didn't plan on that. They (management not the engineers) didn't care if their HD was all buggy, they had to get KDKA out.

To be fair, ABB did keep the KDKA channel "live" (but blacked out) as a back up in case WTAJ's HD went down or became unwatchable. But cdragon is right, they had little choice but to black it out once WTAJ gave the word they were up and running and asserting their local market rights.
And yes, the WTAJ 5.1 audio was terribly unbalanced, but their engineers seem to be getting a handle on it. Let's give them a little time to work out the kinks.

ÂOne of the few good things about modern times: If you die horribly on television, you will not have died in vain. You will have entertained us.Â
- Kurt Vonnegut
-0-
PA_MainyYak is offline  
post #1005 of 3317 Old 02-07-2007, 02:40 PM
Newbie
 
sobonefnet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Altoona, PA
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was receiving WTAJ over-the-air. Now my receiver doesnt even find it on a OTA scan. Anyone else having this problem. I was receiving it very well at 90%. Anyone else have this problem? WATM is still coming in strong as usual.
sobonefnet is offline  
post #1006 of 3317 Old 02-07-2007, 03:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
PA_MainyYak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Johnstown, PA
Posts: 512
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobonefnet View Post

I was receiving WTAJ over-the-air. Now my receiver doesnt even find it on a OTA scan. Anyone else having this problem. I was receiving it very well at 90%. Anyone else have this problem? WATM is still coming in strong as usual.

Rescan channel 32. They are currently mapping to 32-3. (My tuner found it without the scan).
I think you can expect this from time to time as the WTAJ engineers tweak the system.

ÂOne of the few good things about modern times: If you die horribly on television, you will not have died in vain. You will have entertained us.Â
- Kurt Vonnegut
-0-
PA_MainyYak is offline  
post #1007 of 3317 Old 02-07-2007, 04:19 PM
Newbie
 
sobonefnet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Altoona, PA
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am using a Dish Net VIP622 receiver and when I scan it doesn't find it. So I attempt to add it manually. It finds signal - but will not allow me to add it.
sobonefnet is offline  
post #1008 of 3317 Old 02-08-2007, 06:16 AM
Advanced Member
 
golferadam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lake Jackson, TX
Posts: 531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My Comcast Moto 6412 box reset itself this morning in an apparent software upgrade. My box is now running the latest firmware and software:

Firmware: 16.20
Software: 74.53-3321

Also, I now have the full Comcast HD On Demand features. Pretty nice selection!
golferadam is offline  
post #1009 of 3317 Old 02-08-2007, 06:23 AM
Member
 
jaypopsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ahhhh, is that what happened? One minute I was watching the news and the next the box is flashing d1 .... I thought somebody was adding something to the Matrix

JayPo
ThePolettos.com
jaypopsu is offline  
post #1010 of 3317 Old 02-08-2007, 12:25 PM
Member
 
steve shisler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: State College PA
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by golferadam View Post

Also, I now have the full Comcast HD On Demand features. Pretty nice selection!


They need to have lots and lots of good stuff "onDemand" for it to be worth the $22.95 per box I am paying. I'm holding my breath to see how things look with the early March HD update.

It's too bad Comcast can't get the "technical" issues worked out with CBS.
steve shisler is offline  
post #1011 of 3317 Old 02-08-2007, 03:05 PM
Newbie
 
sobonefnet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Altoona, PA
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think I may have found the problem. When I attempt to "add local" on my 622 receiver. I select transmit number "32" (For WTAJ) and it locks signal, under normal circumstances, it show the "channel" number. Well, it is showing channel number "0". Where is has shown "10" in the past. What is WTAJ doing? I can not add this local OTA because of this!
sobonefnet is offline  
post #1012 of 3317 Old 02-08-2007, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
slykens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: State College, Pennsylvania
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So I figured I'd sit down and watch a little TV to wind down from the day...

The new firmware seems much snappier on the DVR (6412 ph3) and the fonts are clearly anti-aliased better so they don't look so crappy. Still waiting for 16:9 guide and menus tho.

Anyway, I found it quite curious that CSI is available in HD through On-demand when we don't even have WTAJ-HD available on the system.

I decided to watch it and it looks pretty good. It is 44 minutes and the "commercials" are CBS promos for other shows. The "eye" logo does appear to be more opaque. The only show listed under for network shows appears to be CSI under CBS.

The HD on-demand does warrant further investigation but this is a nice start. I guess the extra $$$$ a month should buy something.
slykens is offline  
post #1013 of 3317 Old 02-09-2007, 06:44 AM
Member
 
clgberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by slykens View Post

So I figured I'd sit down and watch a little TV to wind down from the day...

...snip...

Anyway, I found it quite curious that CSI is available in HD through On-demand when we don't even have WTAJ-HD available on the system.

Forgot to check the HD OnDemand out last night- are they charging for programs like CSI? They already had HD movies, right? $5.99 (rip) sticks in my mind.

I still am having trouble with the hiding of WYOU on their system during an event as big as the Super Bowl. This must be some legal morass.

I, like sobonefnet, can't raise WTAJ either. I tried manual tuning in the 10s and 32s and rescanned a few times. Are they still on?
clgberg is offline  
post #1014 of 3317 Old 02-09-2007, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
slykens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: State College, Pennsylvania
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by clgberg View Post

Forgot to check the HD OnDemand out last night- are they charging for programs like CSI? They already had HD movies, right? $5.99 (rip) sticks in my mind.

I, like sobonefnet, can't raise WTAJ either. I tried manual tuning in the 10s and 32s and rescanned a few times. Are they still on?

The HD movies looked to be $3.99 for the genuine PPV stuff. CSI and many other things were free.

WTAJ-DT has been ok for me other than the occasional glitch.
slykens is offline  
post #1015 of 3317 Old 02-09-2007, 03:25 PM
Newbie
 
sobonefnet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Altoona, PA
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
spoke with a WTAJ engineer today. I reason some are having a problem finding or resolving WTAJ on a scan is something called "PIP info". I guess WTAJ was having a problem with "PIP" interfering with close captioning. So, closed captioning won and they shut "PIP" off. They are expecting a software fix to arrive on Monday, so the problem may be fixed with the s/w fix. If not, it will become a hardware issue and may take longer to fix. Regardless, this problem will be fix soon or later. The FCC requires the station to broadcast this "PIP" information. So... I sit here and hope Monday is the fix-all.
sobonefnet is offline  
post #1016 of 3317 Old 02-09-2007, 07:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
golferadam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Lake Jackson, TX
Posts: 531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by slykens View Post

The new firmware seems much snappier on the DVR (6412 ph3) and the fonts are clearly anti-aliased better so they don't look so crappy. Still waiting for 16:9 guide and menus tho.

Anyway, I found it quite curious that CSI is available in HD through On-demand when we don't even have WTAJ-HD available on the system.

I decided to watch it and it looks pretty good. It is 44 minutes and the "commercials" are CBS promos for other shows. The "eye" logo does appear to be more opaque. The only show listed under for network shows appears to be CSI under CBS.

The HD on-demand does warrant further investigation but this is a nice start. I guess the extra $$$$ a month should buy something.

I agree slykens. It does seem to be an improvement. I also found it ironic that CBS was the channel that had some local HD programming.

The cost of HD PPV movies decreased slightly. There are a decent handful of free HD movies but I thought the choice of titles was pretty poor. Maybe it is designed that way so the best titles are PPV to increase revenue. The free HD features such as the art gallery and 1000 places to see are great ways to show off a good HDTV display.

On the flipside, the SD on demand content looks pretty bit-starved and low quality. Overall though, it's nice to have a good selection of HD material on demand.

Regarding WTAJ-DT, I haven't been able to pick it up for a few days. I rescanned OTA and it wasn't in the lineup. Also, when I tune to channel 10.1 on D&E it shows up for about 3 seconds and then disappears and does not reappear. Quite strange. I will probably rescan both D&E and OTA this weekend and see what I get.
golferadam is offline  
post #1017 of 3317 Old 02-10-2007, 10:18 AM
Member
 
psu85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Central Pa
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Is it just me or is anyone else still having a problem with the WTAJHD center channel audio during sporting events. Shows and commercials seem fine but hearing the announcers during live sporting events like todays basketball game requires some serious concentration.
psu85 is offline  
post #1018 of 3317 Old 02-10-2007, 11:45 AM
Newbie
 
sobonefnet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Altoona, PA
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
for the short time that I had WTAJHD... the center channel was lousy.
sobonefnet is offline  
post #1019 of 3317 Old 02-12-2007, 05:21 AM
Member
 
deanbrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: near Altoona, PA
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by psu85 View Post

Is it just me or is anyone else still having a problem with the WTAJHD center channel audio during sporting events. Shows and commercials seem fine but hearing the announcers during live sporting events like todays basketball game requires some serious concentration.

I was just coming to ask the same question. WTAJ-HD is just about unwatchable due to the audio. Sporting events are the worst, but I also had big problems watching Criminal Minds and CSI. We couldn't hear the announcers on the golf broadcast, nor the dialogue on Criminal Minds or CSI. The "effects" music and sounds drowned out the dialogue.

I'm going to send an email to both WTAJ and Atlantic Broadband to complain.
deanbrew is offline  
post #1020 of 3317 Old 02-12-2007, 06:56 AM
Member
 
kd3yt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hollidaysburg, Pa
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
deanbrew

How do you send an email to Atlantic Broadband. When I go to their website, the contact info is the phone number only. When you call, all you get is customer service. Is their a way to email the techs??

Thanks
kd3yt is offline  
Reply Local HDTV Info and Reception

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off