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post #361 of 8855 Old 09-30-2004, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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When I spoke to Fox35 on Monday, one of the hardware pieces that was still not installed was on the audio side of the equation, so this no sound behavior is exactly what should be expected.

Steve
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post #362 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 04:18 AM
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12-1 was a bit buggy last night. I lost a couple seconds of picture 3 or 4 times during L&O. The sounds would keep going, but the picture would be black. Once I only lost the top half of the screen for a second. A couple little isolated pixellations showed up in a small part of the screen as well. It wasn't like I lost the signal or anything as the sound kept coming through.

I've noticed these problems for the last few days as well, including last night.
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post #363 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 04:56 AM
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A question for mpark on the NASCAR race this weekend.

Do I understand correctly that NBC offers two feeds, an upsampled 1080i in 16:9 and 4:3?

In the absence of a true HD feed, an unstretched and upsampled 16:9 would be the obvious choice. Is this something WWBT controls, or is it dependent on what the network sends?

I work weekends and need to make an advance call on which channel to record. The clarity of your digital feed on 12-1 is great, but the stretch distorts the shape of the cars and I find it so distracting I'd rather record the analog feed if that's the only alternative.
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post #364 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 06:28 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by wittangamo
A question for mpark on the NASCAR race this weekend.

Do I understand correctly that NBC offers two feeds, an upsampled 1080i in 16:9 and 4:3?

In the absence of a true HD feed, an unstretched and upsampled 16:9 would be the obvious choice. Is this something WWBT controls, or is it dependent on what the network sends?

I work weekends and need to make an advance call on which channel to record. The clarity of your digital feed on 12-1 is great, but the stretch distorts the shape of the cars and I find it so distracting I'd rather record the analog feed if that's the only alternative.

You are basically corect. What is confusing for us is that NBC doesn't list it as HD programming becuase it is 16x9 SD upcoverted to 1080i. So there has been confusion with our operators that there is nothing to go to on the digital feed. I have sent them a heads up to make the switch. Hopefully everything will go smooth.

Michael Park
Creative Services Manager
WWBT NBC 12
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post #365 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 06:35 AM
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That explains it. Thanks. Looking forward to watching.
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post #366 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 07:32 AM
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Mpark, any insight into the problems Anamorpheus and I have been noticing this week?
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post #367 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by beaudot
Mpark, any insight into the problems Anamorpheus and I have been noticing this week?

No, I haven't seen what you are talking about. Please let me know if it continues.

Michael Park
Creative Services Manager
WWBT NBC 12
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post #368 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 09:00 AM
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I've also noticed the exact same thing lately with WWBT 12-1 that Anamorpheus described in his last post. Used to be solid as a rock all the time.
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post #369 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 10:56 AM
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Dear mpark:

I have an issue about stretch or non stretch mode. In fact, I like stretch mode. Why? I believe if you have 2 black bars along the side of your TV a few months from now, it will burn in. One of the reason that I like to view 12-1 because I don't have that issue(although I still see alittle black bars on each side) , please do not remove this feature, by sending out signal with 2 black bars on each side to fool my TV that it is receiving 16:9 format is not fair for folk who has tube or plasma since this eventually going to cause burn in.
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post #370 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 12:33 PM
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docchak:

LCD and DLP televisions do not have the problem with burn-in. So not all HD TV's have this issue. I can see your point though, I just wish they would stretch on 12-2 and give us a higher quality, undistorted 4:3 picture on 12-1. WRIC's and WTVR's (when WTVR is working) 4:3 SD content looks dramatically better than 12-1 or 12-2.

--Chris
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post #371 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 04:05 PM
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WTVR is back on now.
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post #372 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 04:07 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by che2cbs
docchak:

LCD and DLP televisions do not have the problem with burn-in. So not all HD TV's have this issue. I can see your point though, I just wish they would stretch on 12-2 and give us a higher quality, undistorted 4:3 picture on 12-1. WRIC's and WTVR's (when WTVR is working) 4:3 SD content looks dramatically better than 12-1 or 12-2.

--Chris

Unfortunately, my set are not LCD or DLP, mine are subjected to burn in.
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post #373 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 06:35 PM
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Seriously folks CRT suceptibility to burn in is pretty highly overstated. I have a CRT front projector which are likely the most suceptible to burn in of any type of display device out there. It has thousands of hours (4036 at last count--yes it has a usage time on counter in it) in both 4:3 and 16:9 mode no signs of burn yet even though 50% of what I watch is 16:9 which means bars at the top and bottom. The problem I have with 12.1 is that it is neither one or the other. My projector is professional grade and thus has no overscan. Therefore 12.1 which is not true 16:9 leaves 10-12% of either side of my picture still as "black bars". Thus it is distorting my picture and NOT protecting be from burn in (which I don't really worry about anyway). If you are worried about burn in, make sure your contrast settings are set to a resonable level. If contrast is maxed out you are MUCH more likely to get burn in. I run my CRT projector at about 40% of max contrast.
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post #374 of 8855 Old 10-01-2004, 10:12 PM
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Amen to that. Almost any set that IS subject to burn-in has its own zoom features to counter it, and just a little common sense in setting contrast goes a long way.

There is no getting around the fact that stretching distorts the image and reduces picture quality.

If you are worried about burn-in and want to stretch the image on your own set, or if you just like it that way, knock yourself out. But why should the rest of us be forced to watch an unrealistic image?

Programming on the stations that don't stretch looks better than the stations that do, and it doesn't take a purist to see the difference. Stretching does not serve the viewing public, and certainly not the advertisers who are paying for commercials that suffer in the process.

Saying stretching defeats burn-in is like saying forcing everyone to walk defeats traffic accidents. It's true, but there are less offensive ways to achieve the same goal.

In the case of 12-1, the argument falls flat because there are still bars there. Skinny burn is still burn.

My wife is not an AV fanatic like me, but even she won't watch a stretched show because it "just doesn't look right." To offer a really good digital signal and then deliberately distort it makes no sense.
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post #375 of 8855 Old 10-02-2004, 01:16 AM
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Good debate, another option is to leave 12-2 unstretched and broadcast 12-1 in true 16:9, how about the best of both world.

FYI:
http://www.*******************.com/p...tv-burnin.html

Honestly, does not really want to be a rant.

Just my 2 cents.

Let's change subject
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post #376 of 8855 Old 10-02-2004, 05:18 AM
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WTVR is back on now.

And the reception problems with Samsung receivers (among others) continues!
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post #377 of 8855 Old 10-02-2004, 06:57 AM
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getting 35-1 but no sound. 35.2 has video and sound but not as clear as 35.1. anybody know when fox is going to get it fixed.
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post #378 of 8855 Old 10-02-2004, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Fox isn't really on the air yet, so there is nothing to "fix". They are still in the testing phase and waiting on more equipment. Best guess is probably mid-October, possibly as soon as October 6th.

Steve
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post #379 of 8855 Old 10-02-2004, 08:49 AM
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wittangamo and docchak,

If possible, tune to 29-1 in Charlottesville and your problem will be solved. Sooooo much better PQ and SQ.
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post #380 of 8855 Old 10-02-2004, 08:07 PM
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If possible, tune to 29-1 in Charlottesville and your problem will be solved. Sooooo much better PQ and SQ.

Thanks, I've tried. When I can pick up Charlottesville, it looks great. Unfortunately it's an iffy proposition with my present setup.

Currently in Richmond, ABC and CBS are unstretched and excellent. NBC, and now Fox, are going with the stretch for SD shows. (They do offer a low-bandwidth 4:3 multicast, but the quality is nowhere near as good.)

We can only hope that as the numbers and sophistication of digital viewers rise, and the technology improves to make burn-in a non issue, stretch-o-vision will disappear.

Even when HD becomes the norm, there will always be a backlog of 4:3 content, from old academy ratio movies to TV's golden oldies. That content should be respected and shown in its original aspect ratio, not pulled like taffy because some people want to have every inch of their widescreen display filled.

At least give people the option to stretch or not as they see fit. Making it mandatory is the wrong approach, IMHO.
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post #381 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by wittangamo
Thanks, I've tried. When I can pick up Charlottesville, it looks great. Unfortunately it's an iffy proposition with my present setup.

Currently in Richmond, ABC and CBS are unstretched and excellent. NBC, and now Fox, are going with the stretch for SD shows. (They do offer a low-bandwidth 4:3 multicast, but the quality is nowhere near as good.)

We can only hope that as the numbers and sophistication of digital viewers rise, and the technology improves to make burn-in a non issue, stretch-o-vision will disappear.

Even when HD becomes the norm, there will always be a backlog of 4:3 content, from old academy ratio movies to TV's golden oldies. That content should be respected and shown in its original aspect ratio, not pulled like taffy because some people want to have every inch of their widescreen display filled.

At least give people the option to stretch or not as they see fit. Making it mandatory is the wrong approach, IMHO.

OK, I'll compromise, I'll just zoom the screen then, I still like my screen fill up.
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post #382 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 06:58 AM
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Originally posted by wittangamo
Thanks, I've tried. When I can pick up Charlottesville, it looks great. Unfortunately it's an iffy proposition with my present setup.

Currently in Richmond, ABC and CBS are unstretched and excellent. NBC, and now Fox, are going with the stretch for SD shows. (They do offer a low-bandwidth 4:3 multicast, but the quality is nowhere near as good.)

We can only hope that as the numbers and sophistication of digital viewers rise, and the technology improves to make burn-in a non issue, stretch-o-vision will disappear.

Even when HD becomes the norm, there will always be a backlog of 4:3 content, from old academy ratio movies to TV's golden oldies. That content should be respected and shown in its original aspect ratio, not pulled like taffy because some people want to have every inch of their widescreen display filled.

At least give people the option to stretch or not as they see fit. Making it mandatory is the wrong approach, IMHO.

Since I have gotten a HD set at home, I actually prefer to watch 12-1 in stretch-o-vision than 6-1 & 8-1 in 4:3. The fact is, any stretch you do at home will not be as good as the stretch on 12-1. I can't stretch 6-1 or 8-1 through my TV because it is already 1080i or 720p. It just won't let you do it. So I have to use my Directv box which is a straight stretch without anamorphic. My stretch modes on my TV are much better so I usually end up going to 6 & 8 analog and stretching it.
I know some of you guys don't like the stretch but I will defend it now even more than before. I actually like what I'm seeing on 35-1 believe it or not. I hope they keep the stretch. I wish 6-1 and 8-1 would do the same. I actually have an unstretch mode on my Directv Box which puts it back to 4:3. I think this debate will rage on till everything is 16:9.

Michael Park
Creative Services Manager
WWBT NBC 12
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post #383 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 08:13 AM
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Opinions differ, and there will always be people who prefer the illusion of a full screen to the proportions of real life. I appreciate your willingness to explain your position, and hope we can continue the discussion.

Has WWBT, or anyone else in the industry, ever done a survey of local news staff and on-air personnel on how they feel about looking like they are carrying 20 extra pounds? Or checked with advertisers to see whether they like having their stylish new cars and fashions look overinflated? Or asked the networks how they feel about having a majority of the content they provide looked bloated and unnatural?

For that matter, has there been any research to determine what the viewers want? On 12-1, the burn-in problem has not been eliminated, so we are down to arguing personal preference.

In the VHS era, widescreen OAR tapes languished on the shelves while fullscreen pan and scan versions "modified to fit your TV screen" sold well.

In the DVD era, the opposite is true. (Check the sales figures for titles like Jurassic Park that were offered in both formats.) The reason is that viewers have gotten more sophisticated, and there has been a serious push by Hollywood to protect their content and educate consumers on what they lose when the sides of a movie are chopped off.

Now on TV, viewers are getting used to seeing a growing number of cable and network shows letterboxed on their 4:3 sets. Advertisers are doing it on non-HD content to make their pitch stand out by looking different. ESPNHD uses custom pillarboxes to frame their SD replays.

We have established that some people love the stretch and others hate it. But when you say that you feel your are doing what's best for a majority of your station's viewers, how do you know that?
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post #384 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 08:22 AM
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mpark,

I have no problem with stations doing this if that is what they (the station) wants. But it is purely for athestic reasons at least the 12-1 implementation because burn on 10% of my screen is the same as burn in on 25% of my screen. That aside 12-1 implementation seems better 35-1 so far. My post was merely to point out that the burn in risk is pretty low on a properly set up TV. Bottom line for me I vote (sliently) with my remote.

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post #385 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 08:55 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by mpark
I can't stretch 6-1 or 8-1 through my TV because it is already 1080i or 720p. It just won't let you do it. So I have to use my Directv box which is a straight stretch without anamorphic. My stretch modes on my TV are much better so I usually end up going to 6 & 8 analog and stretching it.

Can't you set your STB to 4:3 and adjust your zoom modes from there to accommodate your screen rather than watching analog stations? Something doesn't seem right.

The annoyance I'm having using my 16:9 screen is I'd like to be able to set my STB to 16:9 and leave it, but 8-1, and 29-1 display a 4:3, 12-1 (not quite 4:3), picture in that mode. So then I set my STB to 4:3 and zoom 2 to accommodate those channels, but then 35-1 is in super stretch mode, so its back to the setup and change that setting. In 16:9, 35-1 has so little distortion in reference to 4:3 on my set it's amazing, and this is what I'd like to see on all stations. To quote Ron Popeil, set it and forget it.
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post #386 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 10:01 AM
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Because of the infancy of HD, I know of no surveys on this subject. I will look for further information on whether their are any viewer surveys on HD. Until sometime next year, Nielson doesn't even meter HD channels so their is no way to measure it in ratings. So their is no way to quantify either side except for personnal preference.
I'm not even going to argue the Burn-in thing because it is a mute point. I will argue the aesthic qualities of the stretch. IMHO it just looks better. WWBT management thinks it looks better. For those of you who don't like it, I'm sorry but it is the way it is for now.

Michael Park
Creative Services Manager
WWBT NBC 12
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post #387 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 11:16 AM
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Fair enough. At least you're willing to listen to opposing views, and I appeciate that.

Meanwhile, I'd like to compliment you on the PQ of today's NASCAR race on 12-1. That 1080i 16:9 feed is the next best thing to HD, and it really looks sharp. It is a substantial improvement over the last race on WWBT.
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post #388 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 12:53 PM
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someone please tell me 35-1 is 480p.... this isnt the 720p there advertising to have while watching the skins game is it????????
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post #389 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by jabberwocker
someone please tell me 35-1 is 480p.... this isnt the 720p there advertising to have while watching the skins game is it????????

I don't think Fox 35 is officially live yet so it is quite possible it is 480p. I haven't watched today but everything I have seen in the previous two days looked to 480p to me.
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post #390 of 8855 Old 10-03-2004, 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by jabberwocker
someone please tell me 35-1 is 480p.... this isnt the 720p there advertising to have while watching the skins game is it????????

It is absolutely not 720p. I am fortunate to live here in Fredericksburg where I get both D.C. and Richmond stations. The PQ between 35-1 and 9-1 out of D.C., is night and day. Stand bye...when WRLH gets everything working, you will be pleased.
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