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post #301 of 1958 Old 04-20-2006, 08:15 PM
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That's why I was shocked. I can't get a Pittsburgh signal to save my life but I had WJET Channel 24 out of Erie coming in clearer than WYTV in Youngstown. Maybe I live in a weird magnetic field zone or something
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post #302 of 1958 Old 04-20-2006, 08:26 PM
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The Erie analogs can get out there. One day, atmospherics delivered me all three major network Erie stations (at the time, before FOX 66) with a snowy but watchable signal in Akron!

WKBN-DT occasionally drops out tonight. I don't know if that's because of my antenna situation or not. If I can get something outside, it might prove more reliable. Where I push the antenna seems crucial...if I move it a half-inch, I lose WKBN!
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post #303 of 1958 Old 04-20-2006, 08:37 PM
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Here's a very bad camera phone picture of my little TV getting WKBN-DT tonight, during the 11 PM "First News" broadcast. The "window blind" effect is entirely the picture taking, and is not seen on the screen itself:



(I'll post better captures if I reconfigure my USB HDTV box to get the station OTA...right now the box is pushing through cable and I'm afraid to mess with it.)

I know Mr. Zocolo is probably way too busy to visit here, but I'd like to thank him for a great job. Not only are they now pushing through upconverted WKBN, but they're running Letterman in HD as well!
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post #304 of 1958 Old 04-20-2006, 09:05 PM
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I decided to go ahead and try my USB HDTV card...it gets WKBN-DT with a signal in the 60%-70% range, enough to actually not even choke on the signal. The indoor antenna is in the same position it was for the USDTV tuner.

Two captures (reduced to 640x480 by me). First is David Letterman in HD on WKBN-DT 27-1 tonight:



Second is a WYFX ID slide off of 27-2:

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post #305 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 04:54 AM
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Quick dumb question..

When I watch the digital stations (21.1, 33.1) should everything look better? Also, should everything be in 16x9?

Thanks
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post #306 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 06:10 AM
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Bummer! I was not able to catch even a whiff of WKBN-DT last night. I checked a few times throughout the night, latest at about 11:45 PM. I AM using a rinky-dink indoor antenna, but this setup has allowed me to pull in WFMJ-DT consistently, including last night. Maybe I am sitting in a null in the WKBN-DT signal. I need to get the rotor on my big outdoor antenna back in service!
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post #307 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 08:13 AM
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TBird, if they are broadcasting in HD (NBC had ER in HD for example) and you have an HDTV then yes, it should look better. If they are just upconverting their own programs (6 pm news, syndicated rereuns on Everybody Loves Raymond that every station is running) then it won't be in 16x9 but the picture quality should be better than analog broadcast. The only shows that will be in 16x9 are those that are broadcast in HD.
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post #308 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 08:30 AM
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Ok. Thanks a lot. That is what I figured but when I go to those stations my Sony 42A10 says either "720P 16x9" or "1080i 16X9" for the guide info..
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post #309 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 12:28 PM
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One of the biggest disappointments was when I got my HDTV and cable box, and got ESPN HD expecting to see things in HD. Sportscenter is broadcast in HD, but 99% of the highlights are standard def, so they fill the sidebars with filler that says HD. I also don't really want to see Linda Cohn in HD. The 16x9 is only available when the networks broadcast in 16x9, and it looks like we'll never see Fox in HD unless we pick up a Pittsburgh or Cleveland station, WKBN will broadcast WYFX in standard def.
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post #310 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackKnight View Post

Bummer! I was not able to catch even a whiff of WKBN-DT last night. I checked a few times throughout the night, latest at about 11:45 PM. I AM using a rinky-dink indoor antenna, but this setup has allowed me to pull in WFMJ-DT consistently, including last night. Maybe I am sitting in a null in the WKBN-DT signal. I need to get the rotor on my big outdoor antenna back in service!

Hmm. If I'm getting it here in Akron, you should be getting it down there. The signal hovers in the 60-70% range, but it never breaks up when I do get it. I do notice that antenna placement is CRUCIAL...move the thing an inch over, and I lose it.

Their power may fluctuate as they do more work on the thing. I was getting it last night at about that same time - see the above screen captures - though it appears my Fusion HDTV USB tuner may have an easier time picking it up than the USDTV standalone box does.

BTW, for the record, I can't get WFMJ-DT at ALL here...I don't even get a visible signal indicator out of DT 20.
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post #311 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inundated View Post

BTW, for the record, I can't get WFMJ-DT at ALL here...I don't even get a visible signal indicator out of DT 20.

Which is strange considering(I think) that WFMJ is the most powerful one of the four in the area(as of right now in KW power).
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post #312 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by STEELERSRULE View Post

Which is strange considering(I think) that WFMJ is the most powerful one of the four in the area(as of right now in KW power).

Nope. WKBN-DT is now the most powerful one at 700KW.

WFMJ's STA is 200KW and their final power will be 460KW.
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post #313 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inundated View Post

Nope. WKBN-DT is now the most powerful one at 700KW.

WFMJ's STA is 200KW and their final power will be 460KW.


WYTV must have a pretty weak signal, Digital and analog. They are always the hardest to pick up here, and usually fuzzy on analoge.
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post #314 of 1958 Old 04-21-2006, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theshark8777 View Post

WYTV must have a pretty weak signal, Digital and analog. They are always the hardest to pick up here, and usually fuzzy on analoge.

WYTV-DT is putting out a whopping 50KW of power, and its permanent facility will actually be less powerful - 48.8KW!

The final facility will apparently be at higher on the tower. It doesn't appear to extend the station's service area, though.

WYTV/33 analog is 900KW.
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post #315 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 08:14 AM
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I aimed my Silver Sensor out my living room window ESE (110 degrees) and got a whopping signal of 103 (out of 125 on the E* scale). On top of the TV I get a lockable 70 (70 is usually not enough to lock on any other station but WKBN is locking).

I even caught the announcement on the 11 PM news last night: "The Valley has two new TV stations on the air..."

WYFX looks great in SD, not overcompressed. WKBN-DT's CBS HD looks awesome. I have been having problems with WOIO-DT's picture, it has a pulsation. I do not see that at all on WKBN-DT. This proves that the problem is not CBS's fault.

Kudos to WKBN Cheif Mr. Tom Zocolo and staff!
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post #316 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

I even caught the announcement on the 11 PM news last night: "The Valley has two new TV stations on the air..."

Here's the script from that newscast, which I found on WKBN's website:

Quote:


We want to take a moment to tell you about two NEW local television channels on the air today.

Both WKBN and our sister station FOX 17-62 are now transmitting digitally. We've invested over a million and a half dollars to bring you the most powerful digital signal in the Mahoning Valley.

DIGITAL CHANNELS

OVER THE AIR- CHANNEL 41

ARMSTRONG CABLE-CHANNELS 104 AND 105

You can watch us on a digital television set on channel- 41. Armstrong cable carries the two stations on channels- 104 and 105. Channel positions on the other area cable companies have not yet been decided. WKBN is showing network high-definition programming, and FOX 17-62 will supply network high definition to cable.

As for me, it turns out perhaps it was luck or atmospheric conditions allowing me a shot at WKBN-DT out my window, which I will have to remove a screen to open fully. I moved my indoor amplified antenna out to the deck out the back, and I am getting the station again...levels usually in the 60% range. It breaks up a few times a minute, when it gets close to or below 60%.

But it would mean, presumably, that I could get the station reliably with a much better antenna. (Remember, I'm over on the OTHER side of Akron. And even this antenna placement gets me ZERO signal out of WFMJ-DT.)

Congratulations again to Mr. Zocolo et al.!
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post #317 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inundated View Post

WYTV-DT is putting out a whopping 50KW of power, and its permanent facility will actually be less powerful - 48.8KW!

The final facility will apparently be at higher on the tower. It doesn't appear to extend the station's service area, though.

WYTV/33 analog is 900KW.

Wonder why so much lower power than competing DT stations in their area and their present analog station?
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post #318 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 11:03 AM
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I am pleased to formally announce that WKBN-DT (Ch. 41) is on the air at the full power of 700 KW. It has been a grueling past few weeks, but equipment came in and contractors showed up and everything came together on time with many long work days. We do have a couple of minor issues to work out so please bear with us as we work on them, however I do welcome your feedback on signal quality and/or anything else on which you care to comment.

As far as the WYFX HD is concerned, we do have an agreement to provide Armstrong Cable with that signal via fiber and that should be in place in a week or two. WYFX (SD) will also be going up on DIRECTV soon now that we will be able to get a reliable signal to them.

Thanks to everyone for your kind kudos for our hard work. I have an excellent Engineering staff and I will pass it along to them as well.

Thomas A. Zocolo
Chief Engineer
WKBN-TV 27.1 / WYFX-LP 62 & 27.2
WYTV 33.1 / MyYTV 33.2
Youngstown, Ohio
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post #319 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rluyster View Post

Wonder why so much lower power than competing DT stations in their area and their present analog station?

It takes less power to transmit digitally than in analog. If WYTV ran a digital transmitter at 900 KW they would go beyond their licensed coverage area.

I'm just thankful that WKBN-DT got to use 700 KW (as well as what appears to be the highest tower height on any station in Youngstown). That is why I can enjoy WKBN/WYFX anytime, but have to wait for the atmospheric conditions to be just right before I can get a lock on WYTV or WFMJ. For whatever reason the FCC gave WKBN the best coverage area. I wish they would extend the coverage area for WKBN and WYTV. WYTV has gotten the short end of the stick on both their analog and digital coverage areas. It may have had to do with their being an ABC affilliate. At one time there were 3 ABC's in Northeast Ohio (WAKR in Akron which is now "I" WVPX). I know for a fact that WAKR had to "protect" WEWS to the north which is why both ch 49 (the original WAKR) and 23 (which replaced 49 as WAKR but still had a terrestrial null to the north) to this day have a lousy signal in most of Cuyahoga County.

There is no reason a station in Akron can't deliver a quality signal to Cuyahoga County. WOAC has proven it's possible, and they are licesenced to Canton! Even since former owners PAXON moved ch 67's tower to IIRC Brimfield (just outside Kent) the signal hit up here like gangbusters. Unfortunately 23 and 49 stayed on the west side of Akron where Richfield casts a shadow down the Cuyahoga.
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post #320 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

There is no reason a station in Akron can't deliver a quality signal to Cuyahoga County. WOAC has proven it's possible, and they are licesenced to Canton! Even since former owners PAXON moved ch 67's tower to IIRC Brimfield (just outside Kent) the signal hit up here like gangbusters. Unfortunately 23 and 49 stayed on the west side of Akron where Richfield casts a shadow down the Cuyahoga.

I think you're onto something here - the location of the 23/49 towers just north of Rolling Acres Mall in Akron. The FCC did allow WVPX to increase its power to the maximum for analog UHF stations - 5MW. The reason for "protection" to WEWS is long gone. I don't think that was an FCC issue, but an issue in WAKC's ABC agreement.

I'm guessing you'll have a better shot at WVPX-DT (like there's much to watch there!) whenever they manage to get that stick on the air.
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post #321 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 04:43 PM
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[quote=Michael P 2341]It takes less power to transmit digitally than in analog. If WYTV ran a digital transmitter at 900 KW they would go beyond their licensed coverage area.



I was aware of that fact but it puzzles me as to why WYTV will be at only 50 Kw when the other DTV stations in the Youngstown area will operate at several hundred Kws. I would think they would want to be more on par power-wise with the other competing stations in that market. Maybe one of the engineers contributing to this discussion has some thoughts?

Congratulations to WKBN-DT! You have a very strong signal here in the Canton area...at least 10 points or more higher than WFMJ-DT and with exact antenna pointing being less critical. Glad to have you on the air!
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post #322 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WKBN Chief View Post

Thanks to everyone for your kind kudos for our hard work. I have an excellent Engineering staff and I will pass it along to them as well.

Hey, I at least have a shot at a major Youngstown market station on the OTHER side of Akron, so I'm happy. Thank YOU and your staff!

For reference, I'm just east of Cuyahoga Falls, just up the hill from the Merriman Valley, with a tree-obstructed shot out to the ESE. I imagine if I were over in Stow or Tallmadge, I'd be able to get WKBN-DT with even the most minimal antenna placement. As it stands, if I got even a basic outdoor antenna going, I'd probably have no problem with a lock on your station. Proper placement of my existing indoor amplified antenna outside off my deck gets me a regular lock on the station.

You guys paid more attention to that station than even some of the long-existing DT stations over here. You were pumping out HD David Letterman on night one, and were fully running both locally upconverted SD and CBS HD on night two. There are times that stations over here can't get that right after being on for years.

Now, aside from those minor issues...feel free to crack open a bubbly of your choice and celebrate.
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post #323 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 04:47 PM
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[quote=rluyster]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

Congratulations to WKBN-DT! You have a very strong signal here in the Canton area...at least 10 points or more higher than WFMJ-DT and with exact antenna pointing being less critical. Glad to have you on the air!

As mentioned, the antenna placement outside for WKBN-DT here doesn't get even a BIT of signal out of WFMJ-DT. I guess the extra 300KW or so makes a difference.

I know WFMJ's engineer reads here, so don't take that the wrong way...I mean, after all, we are WELL outside your target market!
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post #324 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 07:03 PM
 
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[quote=Inundated]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluyster View Post

I know WFMJ's engineer reads here, so don't take that the wrong way...I mean, after all, we are WELL outside your target market!


No offense taken. I worked for 21 years at WKBN, 7 years as Chief. I put the Fox staions on the air and hired Tom to help. I'm glad he got beyond the MX interference issues, the Canadian issues, and the tower mess. I tried for more than 460kW, but there was an interference issue somewhere in Ohio that limited my coverage. I'll be doubling power late this summer so that might help you guys.
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post #325 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TV21CHIEF View Post

No offense taken. I worked for 21 years at WKBN, 7 years as Chief. I put the Fox staions on the air and hired Tom to help. I'm glad he got beyond the MX interference issues, the Canadian issues, and the tower mess. I tried for more than 460kW, but there was an interference issue somewhere in Ohio that limited my coverage. I'll be doubling power late this summer so that might help you guys.

Still hoping for that boost by July, then. Again, we're out of market for you, and I'm sure that folks in the Valley will be well served by the 460KW facility, if not even what you're running now. I'm just a former resident there who likes to check in from time to time on what's going on in my former market...
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post #326 of 1958 Old 04-22-2006, 08:13 PM
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I am so happy to be able to get all 4 networks in Youngstown (well 5 if you count the WB!) with an antenna now. Fox 17/62 was impossible to pick up a watchable signal before, I am just sad it can't be in HD, but Fox 8 should come in pretty good when I get my outdoor antenna up!
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post #327 of 1958 Old 04-24-2006, 04:47 PM
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I still havn't put up an outdoor antenna, however using a Silver Sensor on top of my TV (not looking out an ESE window) I get 66 - 70 on the E* scale. What is strange is at that level I never could get a lock on any other station, but luckily I do on WKBN.

What is stranger is that the time of day matters. I cannot get a lock at noon but do get a lock in the early evening before sunset.

I believe a big part of my problem is the signal has to go through my aluminum-sided walls. For example I can't get a lock on WVIZ-DT unless I run a longer coax to the north-facing window - and I'm only 3 miles from the transmiter (granted they are only using one hamster to power their generator at the moment ). To get a stronger signal on WKBN (an impressive 103) requires me to run a coax from the family room through the kitchen and into the living room. The analog Youngstown stations do not come in hardly at all even with this living room set-up (33 not at all, 21 barely watchable and 27 not as good as 21). I use a compass to aim the Silver Sensor and take the magnetic correction factor into play.

I bet once I get on my roof I should be able to get a lock 100% of the time with a solid signal and maybe add WFMJ-DT as well.

A note on picture quality: The other evening CBS ran the movie "Something Has to Give". There was a strobing effect just during that film. If you ever saw a PAL or SECAM video converted to NTSC it sort of looked like that - a jitter every now and then like frames were being dropped. I compaired WKBN to WOIO and I did not see the same thing on WOIO (however I did see the obnoxious color pulsations on OIO ). I have not seen it again since that evening, so maybe it was an anomoly.
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post #328 of 1958 Old 04-24-2006, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael P 2341 View Post

A note on picture quality: The other evening CBS ran the movie "Something Has to Give". There was a strobing effect just during that film. If you ever saw a PAL or SECAM video converted to NTSC it sort of looked like that - a jitter every now and then like frames were being dropped. I compaired WKBN to WOIO and I did not see the same thing on WOIO (however I did see the obnoxious color pulsations on OIO ). I have not seen it again since that evening, so maybe it was an anomoly.

I noticed that as well. I thought that maybe my reception just was not stable. It was exactly as you described - it appeared as though frames were being dropped. Perhaps Mr. Zocolo can enlighten us?
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post #329 of 1958 Old 04-24-2006, 06:09 PM
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[quote=TV21CHIEF]
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Originally Posted by Inundated View Post



No offense taken. I worked for 21 years at WKBN, 7 years as Chief. I put the Fox staions on the air and hired Tom to help. I'm glad he got beyond the MX interference issues, the Canadian issues, and the tower mess. I tried for more than 460kW, but there was an interference issue somewhere in Ohio that limited my coverage. I'll be doubling power late this summer so that might help you guys.

Are you doubling your 460 kW, or are you not operating at 460 kW yet? I'm still receiving you most of the time with an indoor antenna in North Canton, but I won't complain about more power.
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post #330 of 1958 Old 04-24-2006, 06:45 PM
 
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[quote=TheBlackKnight]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TV21CHIEF View Post


Are you doubling your 460 kW, or are you not operating at 460 kW yet? I'm still receiving you most of the time with an indoor antenna in North Canton, but I won't complain about more power.

I'm at 200 kW side mounted at 780 feet now. I'll be moving to 460kW at the top of the tower at about 1025 feet.
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