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post #451 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 01:56 PM
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As for PSIP on WGMB, it should b e correct. There is a lot of majic involved in PSIP and sometimes the genie goes on strike :-) Yes WB21 is now on 44.2. Fox has configured the splicer to give bandwidth priority to WGMB, so during sporting events, the splicer will compress WB21 to accomodate FOX. Fox assures me that they will not compress WB21 below 3mb, which is quite ample for NTSC upconverted SD nonsports programming.
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post #452 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33/44 CE View Post

As for PSIP on WGMB, it should b e correct. There is a lot of majic involved in PSIP and sometimes the genie goes on strike :-) Yes WB21 is now on 44.2. Fox has configured the splicer to give bandwidth priority to WGMB, so during sporting events, the splicer will compress WB21 to accomodate FOX. Fox assures me that they will not compress WB21 below 3mb, which is quite ample for NTSC upconverted SD nonsports programming.

Awesome! Excellent Christmas present for the OTA'ers! It's SD, but we'll take an extra channel with a smile
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post #453 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by postalguy View Post

You know, I still don't understand why you guys are ragging on Directv. I don't know what kind of tvs you have, but it looks outstanding on my new Samsung DLP (except for espn2).

Maybe they've improved since the last time you've seen them, or maybe it's my tv, but I see no difference between theirs and local HD. They both look great. On the calibration forum here, some recommend Directv's HDnet early morning test pattern for calibrating your HD as they say it's perfect for this. Apparently they like what they see too.

Anyway, that's just my viewpoint. I don't care about bitrates and what it's supposed to be. When it looks so real that I feel like I'm there on location, when I almost hold my breath when the camera goes underwater, I have no complaints

The reason is because D* starves the HD channels and downrez's them. In our test we compared a true HD 1920X1080i show versus D*'s 1280X1080i on the same set, hooked up with the same style connection. We had 3 or 4 people that were not told which was which and they immediately want the true HD picture when we switched it to D*'s. The picture just looks washed and doesn't have the clarity that just jumps out at you. There's no comparison....

Imagine if you added another 600 lines of horizontal resolution to the screen. One day you'll see what you've been missing and why many of us call it HDLite.
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post #454 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 02:27 PM
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Wow, the WB on 44-2! I don't think anyone predicted this...COOL! Why not HD for prime time 9.25 Megs per channel! (JUST KIDDING DIGIBLUR!)

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post #455 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 04:12 PM
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Nice surprise to get WB21 on 44.2! Now if only WAFB would bring its signal up to par with the others in the market - plus drop The Tube on 9.4 and replace it with its UPN channel. Hello?
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post #456 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 05:22 PM
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Having had the chance to watch 44-2 for a while, the picture quality is very poor. Perhaps more bandwidth is needed, or maybe some sort of VBR (variable bit rate) process. just seems like a waste. On the other hand, WGMB still looks very good. If only there was a way for both stations to share bandwidth equally when broadcasting sd material.

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post #457 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postalguy View Post

You know, I still don't understand why you guys are ragging on Directv. I don't know what kind of tvs you have, but it looks outstanding on my new Samsung DLP (except for espn2).

Maybe they've improved since the last time you've seen them, or maybe it's my tv, but I see no difference between their HD and local HD. They both look great. On the calibration forum here, some recommend Directv's HDnet early morning test pattern for calibrating your HD as they say it's perfect for this. Apparently they like what they see too.

Anyway, that's just my viewpoint. I don't care about bitrates and what it's supposed to be. When it looks so real that I feel like I'm there on location, when I almost hold my breath when the camera goes underwater, I have no complaints

there is a difference. i have d* and the ota HD channels (except wafb) blows the doors off of the D* hd channels. cox's hd channels look better than D*.

I wish i would of did a little more research before i got D*. I was kind of rushed into it, moved in a new house...cox was not ran in my part of the subdivision yet, and my wife just had a baby. so i went the easy route and called D*. If i could do it all over again I would get the just the HD and VOOM package from DISH, locals OTA, and cox's expanded basic. i would do it now if I could get out of D* crazy commitments
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post #458 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WheelRat View Post

Nice surprise to get WB21 on 44.2! Now if only WAFB would bring its signal up to par with the others in the market - plus drop The Tube on 9.4 and replace it with its UPN channel. Hello?

That wouldn't be a bad idea... but to get a decent bitrate on 9.4 they'd have to eat a little more into the HD channel. I don't remember the bitrate on 9.4, but it's god awful!

Sure is nice to be able take this signal:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=CA662493.html

And turn it into this:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT422983.html
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post #459 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jfklennon View Post

Having had the chance to watch 44-2 for a while, the picture quality is very poor. Perhaps more bandwidth is needed, or maybe some sort of VBR (variable bit rate) process. just seems like a waste. On the other hand, WGMB still looks very good. If only there was a way for both stations to share bandwidth equally when broadcasting sd material.

I'll have to check during some true 720p content tomorrow at 7pm. I did a spot check around 11:30pm 12/21 and the 44-1 channel was getting around 12.3, 44-2 was around 3.8, 1.8 going to null packets, 44-1 audio was 384Kbps, and 44-2 audio was 192Kbps.
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post #460 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jfklennon View Post

Wow, the WB on 44-2! I don't think anyone predicted this...COOL! Why not HD for prime time 9.25 Megs per channel! (JUST KIDDING DIGIBLUR!)

Hahaha.... I know! I know! I know! Let's downrez the 1080i WB signal to 1280X1080i and starve it with only 9.25... wait a minute, isn't there already another company doing this?

Sorry I couldn't pass up the direct pun! (pun intended!)
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post #461 of 2956 Old 12-21-2005, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33/44 CE View Post

As for PSIP on WGMB, it should b e correct. There is a lot of majic involved in PSIP and sometimes the genie goes on strike :-) Yes WB21 is now on 44.2. Fox has configured the splicer to give bandwidth priority to WGMB, so during sporting events, the splicer will compress WB21 to accomodate FOX. Fox assures me that they will not compress WB21 below 3mb, which is quite ample for NTSC upconverted SD nonsports programming.

Will the EIT/ETT table be populated with real content for 44.2?

What's in store for 33.2?
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post #462 of 2956 Old 12-22-2005, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by digiblur View Post

The reason is because D* starves the HD channels and downrez's them. In our test we compared a true HD 1920X1080i show versus D*'s 1280X1080i on the same set, hooked up with the same style connection. We had 3 or 4 people that were not told which was which and they immediately want the true HD picture when we switched it to D*'s. The picture just looks washed and doesn't have the clarity that just jumps out at you. There's no comparison....

Imagine if you added another 600 lines of horizontal resolution to the screen. One day you'll see what you've been missing and why many of us call it HDLite.

Well, as we speak I AM indeed getting 1920X1080i on Directv's:

CH 74 (UHD), CH 76 (DSHD), CH 78 (HDNM), CH 79 (HDN), CH 71 (SHOH), CH 70 (HBOH).

Now ESPNHD CH 73 is only 1280X720 for the Las Vegas Bowl, but that might be of their doing and not Directv.

OTA I see that WGMBDT and WBRZDT are only 1280X720. Is that the best we can expect from them? Looks like THEY are the real HDLite, not Directv

I tried to tell you that Directv looks as good as OTA, (and probably better). I'm thinking your complaint is outdated as they have obviously improved since then. When was the last time you checked?

Here's another satisfied Directv/Samsung owner's pics:
http://www.aaronwt.com/interest.htm
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post #463 of 2956 Old 12-22-2005, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postalguy View Post

Well, as we speak I AM indeed getting 1920X1080i on Directv's:

CH 74 (UHD), CH 76 (DSHD), CH 78 (HDNM), CH 79 (HDN), CH 71 (SHOH), CH 70 (HBOH).

As of 1:00 AM this morning, HDNet was 1280x1080. (according to the file off my HDTivo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by postalguy View Post

Now ESPNHD CH 73 is only 1280X720 for the Las Vegas Bowl, but that might be of their doing and not Directv.

OTA I see that WGMBDT and WBRZDT are only 1280X720. Is that the best we can expect from them? Looks like THEY are the real HDLite, not Directv

That's normal. 1280x720 60fps is full resolution 720p.
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Originally Posted by postalguy View Post

I tried to tell you that Directv looks as good as OTA, (and probably better). I'm thinking your complaint is outdated as they have obviously improved since then. When was the last time you checked?

How can you make a comparison between OTA and DirecTV? What services do they have in common to compare (short of having DNS locals)? At best cable or DBS will only be as good as OTA.
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post #464 of 2956 Old 12-22-2005, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postalguy View Post

Well, as we speak I AM indeed getting 1920X1080i on Directv's:

CH 74 (UHD), CH 76 (DSHD), CH 78 (HDNM), CH 79 (HDN), CH 71 (SHOH), CH 70 (HBOH).

Now ESPNHD CH 73 is only 1280X720 for the Las Vegas Bowl, but that might be of their doing and not Directv.

OTA I see that WGMBDT and WBRZDT are only 1280X720. Is that the best we can expect from them? Looks like THEY are the real HDLite, not Directv

I tried to tell you that Directv looks as good as OTA, (and probably better). I'm thinking your complaint is outdated as they have obviously improved since then. When was the last time you checked?

Here's another satisfied Directv/Samsung owner's pics:
http://www.aaronwt.com/interest.htm

You might want to read up on the differences between 1080i and 720p. You'll see why ESPN, ABC, and FOX chose 720p over 1080i.

Here's how it works. D* will receive say a 17mb 1920X1080i signal from DiscoveryHD's uplink. D* takes the signal and downrez's it to 1280X1080i and compresses it down to say 10mb. The signal is encrypted and muxxed into an uplink signal. Sent up into the sky and then back down to your D* receiver. The D* receiver then unencrypt's, uncompresses, and uprez's to 1920X1080i. Then it is sent to your TV. So yes you maybe receiving a 1920X1080i signal but once it's downrez'd there's no way of getting it back.
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post #465 of 2956 Old 12-22-2005, 08:45 PM
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Merry Christmas everyone! I have a Princeton Graphics AF3.0HD 30 inch widescreen tube (the first widescreen tube I believe) that was hauled into my house in 1999 and still running beautifully. It is supposed to do 720p and 1080i without converting. I started my HD experience watching the LPB HD reruns and an occasional HBO movie in HD. The RCA DTC100 at the time only output in 1080i. But once I bought the Zenith HD SAT520, I was able to test and see if there was really a difference between both formats. I am not sure if it is because of the small "footprint" of the monitor, but there is no doubt that if you want to watch a sporting event or even an "action" movie 720p is the way to go. On the other hand if you want to watch a sunset, 1080i is OK. As far as there being a difference between D* and OTA in HD viewing, I do not see it. With all the multicasting and the compression algorithms both delivery systems are guilty of denying the viewer true HD. By the way here is a cool Goggle Map of our local HD transmitting towers.
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/programm...t.php?dma_name[]=Baton+Rouge
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post #466 of 2956 Old 12-22-2005, 09:46 PM
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As promised:



I'm suprised at the 3.5Mbps of null packets.

I had to throw in some WAFB goodies too! Gotta love that 1080i CSI at 10.5Mbps with the 2.0 audio at 192Kbps.

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post #467 of 2956 Old 12-22-2005, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post

Merry Christmas everyone! I have a Princeton Graphics AF3.0HD 30 inch widescreen tube (the first widescreen tube I believe) that was hauled into my house in 1999 and still running beautifully. It is supposed to do 720p and 1080i without converting. I started my HD experience watching the LPB HD reruns and an occasional HBO movie in HD. The RCA DTC100 at the time only output in 1080i. But once I bought the Zenith HD SAT520, I was able to test and see if there was really a difference between both formats. I am not sure if it is because of the small "footprint" of the monitor, but there is no doubt that if you want to watch a sporting event or even an "action" movie 720p is the way to go. On the other hand if you want to watch a sunset, 1080i is OK. As far as there being a difference between D* and OTA in HD viewing, I do not see it. With all the multicasting and the compression algorithms both delivery systems are guilty of denying the viewer true HD. By the way here is a cool Goggle Map of our local HD transmitting towers.
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/programm...t.php?dma_name[]=Baton+Rouge

It's probably hard to pick out resolutions on a 30" inch set. If I remember right, the HD world only considers TV's that are 16:9 and 36+ inches.

Trust me, it's visible. E* has currently turned the rest of the VOOM channels into HDLite. I used to show off several of the VOOM channels when I was showing off the set, but not any longer. I remember watching the same programs a few months ago and now when I watch them in HDLite they have completely lost that "wow" factor that makes you feel like you are there on the set. Hopefully there will be some changes coming in Jan'06 with the upcoming new VOOM channels. At least HDNet, HDNM, and DiscoveryHD are still 1920X1080i.
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post #468 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by digiblur View Post

Here's how it works. D* will receive say a 17mb 1920X1080i signal from DiscoveryHD's uplink. D* takes the signal and downrez's it to 1280X1080i and compresses it down to say 10mb. The signal is encrypted and muxxed into an uplink signal. Sent up into the sky and then back down to your D* receiver. The D* receiver then unencrypt's, uncompresses, and uprez's to 1920X1080i. Then it is sent to your TV. So yes you maybe receiving a 1920X1080i signal but once it's downrez'd there's no way of getting it back.

So let me get this straight. First you claim Directv is only broadcasting 1280X1080 instead of 1920X1080 and how much better life would be if only I could see it in 1920X1080. Then, when it turns out I am indeed seeing it in 1920X1080, well, uh, er, you need to read up as to why you should stop enjoying that great picture you are seeing and complain like the rest of us.

That about sum it up?

Sorry, but this sounds similar to someone saying I need to stop enjoying my BMW because Porsche is a faster car. If they are both nice cars and each is enjoying his own car, what's the problem?
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post #469 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by digiblur View Post

Will the EIT/ETT table be populated with real content for 44.2?

What's in store for 33.2?

44.2's PSIP should fill out in the next day or so. I am waiting on my data provider to get the info in place so I can configure the download and insertion.

33.2? Well, there are several ideas bouncing around at the moment, but nothing concrete.
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post #470 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RxpSGR
(WGMB crashes my Sammy STR-165 with a strong carrier, but no picture) I have the same problem here in Kenner. Just a scrambled picture although my Samsung STR 151 shows a strong signal. At least our local Fox is now broadcasting. I cannot figure out how to receive the channel or is this a Sammy problem ?


No problems reported in the Baton Rouge thread with the OTA signal. Actually as of today 44-2 was added which is WBRL21 (WB). The user named "33/44 CE" (Chief Engineer) posts in the BR thread, he/she might be able to help you out with this problem.

Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ben
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post #471 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 07:06 AM
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You can lead a horse to water,.......

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
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post #472 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postalguy View Post

So let me get this straight. First you claim Directv is only broadcasting 1280X1080 instead of 1920X1080 and how much better life would be if only I could see it in 1920X1080. Then, when it turns out I am indeed seeing it in 1920X1080, well, uh, er, you need to read up as to why you should stop enjoying that great picture you are seeing and complain like the rest of us.

Thanks... I'll enjoy my true HD channels and you can enjoy your HDLite ones. I'm not trying to start an argument here. Just pointing out what D* is doing. It's no secret. Look around several of the boards.

If your D* receiver is set to 1080i you are also watching the SD channels at 1080i. You consider this HD also?

I can take a 32 X 32 avatar image and blow it up to a 5.0 megapixel image. Is it going to look any better?

Once you downconvert to 1280X1080, no matter how much you shine that turd on the backside it's still a turd.
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post #473 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by postalguy View Post


First you claim Directv is only broadcasting 1280X1080 instead of 1920X1080 and how much better life would be if only I could see it in 1920X1080. Then, when it turns out I am indeed seeing it in 1920X1080,

WTF? It is a well documented fact that DirecTV is sending 1280x1080i. They get away with it (except for the 0.001% of viewers here on AVS) because most sets don't have that much horizontal resolution anyway. Even HDCAM downsamples to 1440x1080i, so all of those pretty Bikini Destinations shows (and a lot of others shot on HDCAM) are *only* 1440x1080i to begin with.
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post #474 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 33/44 CE View Post

44.2's PSIP should fill out in the next day or so. I am waiting on my data provider to get the info in place so I can configure the download and insertion.

33.2? Well, there are several ideas bouncing around at the moment, but nothing concrete.

Why not make WBRL be 21.1? That would probably make for much better branding than being known as WGMB's bitch channel.

Now to half-answer my own question...
I don't have time to dig it up right now, but there is an ATSC rule that the major number be the same as the licensee's analog channel. But, I don't know if that applies to all a station's services, or just the primary. I believe USDTV puts all of their channels in a market on one major number (80 I think). I'll speculate that they get away with it because the service is encrypted, but I don't know.
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post #475 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by FSOne View Post

Why not make WBRL be 21.1? That would probably make for much better branding than being known as WGMB's bitch channel.

According to the great powers in the sky, since it is a subchannel, it must retain the major channel number. Whatever the content, it is being broadcast within the 44/45 spectrum so it must be PSIPed as 44.X, with the same TSID as WGMB.
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post #476 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 03:58 PM
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Digiblur,

"A longtime leader in computer monitor displays, Princeton delivers outstanding performance with the $3,999 AF3.0HD, a 30-inch direct view 16:9 (widescreen) monitor that displays all HDTV formats. Designed by Joe Kane, the founder of the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF), this monitor is considered by many professionals to be the reference standard, winning editorial product awards from both the home theater and broadcast industries. (http://www.ecoustics.com/avrev/princeton/)"

Look it up. I have a Hitachi 42HD55, a sharp LC-32D4U, and a Runco DLP front projector and still it is "the picture" in the house. Trust me.
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post #477 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digiblur View Post

Thanks... I'll enjoy my true HD channels and you can enjoy your HDLite ones. I'm not trying to start an argument here. Just pointing out what D* is doing. It's no secret. Look around several of the boards.

Once you downconvert to 1280X1080, no matter how much you shine that turd on the backside it's still a turd.

I have had the opportunity to test Cox and D* on the same plasma at my house (42" panny). I seriously can't tell a difference between the two when it comes to HD - although I think my OTA looks sharper than anything on either distributer.

What made me decide on d* vs. cox was the SD channels, which look HORRIBLE on cox (2-100). Since I still watch several sd channels, d* was a no brainer. Now the only thing I have tested on my tv was dish network; but since they don't have locals here it is useless.

Just my .02
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post #478 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post

Digiblur,

"A longtime leader in computer monitor displays, Princeton delivers outstanding performance with the $3,999 AF3.0HD, a 30-inch direct view 16:9 (widescreen) monitor that displays all HDTV formats. Designed by Joe Kane, the founder of the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF), this monitor is considered by many professionals to be the reference standard, winning editorial product awards from both the home theater and broadcast industries. (http://www.ecoustics.com/avrev/princeton/)"

Look it up. I have a Hitachi 42HD55, a sharp LC-32D4U, and a Runco DLP front projector and still it is "the picture" in the house. Trust me.

I'm not knocking you....to each and their own.

You wouldn't even see me buying a 36" inch TV, yet a 30 inch, even if it was some sort of super HDTV with 2160p. 36 inches is 36 inches.
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post #479 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by scolainsola View Post

I have had the opportunity to test Cox and D* on the same plasma at my house (42" panny). I seriously can't tell a difference between the two when it comes to HD - although I think my OTA looks sharper than anything on either distributer.

What made me decide on d* vs. cox was the SD channels, which look HORRIBLE on cox (2-100). Since I still watch several sd channels, d* was a no brainer. Now the only thing I have tested on my tv was dish network; but since they don't have locals here it is useless.

Just my .02

A friend has D* with the HD's, Cox cable modem, and basic cable for QAM HD locals. It was cheaper to get the locals from Cox than D*. Maybe something is wrong with his set but watching DiscoveryHD, just lacks that nice "wow" factor that I get watching it on E*. He's actually waiting for his contract to run out so he can switch to E*.

Last time I checked, Cox was running some decent bit rates with only 2 HD channels per QAM256 carrier. But they don't have HDNet, and they make you get expanded basic, so "it is useless".

E* is useless without the locals? I consider the locals on D* as useless. They're SD for BR. We all know we can get some decent locals for free OTA, all in HD at their respective resolutions.
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post #480 of 2956 Old 12-23-2005, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by overworked View Post

According to the great powers in the sky, since it is a subchannel, it must retain the major channel number. Whatever the content, it is being broadcast within the 44/45 spectrum so it must be PSIPed as 44.X, with the same TSID as WGMB.

Ok. You made me go look it up.

Read ATSC Standard A/65B Annex B, specifically paragraph 7. It's pages 86 and 87.
http://www.atsc.org/standards/a65b.html
Quote:


A broadcaster may include in the transmitted multiplex programming originating from a different licensed broadcaster and use the major/minor channel numbers of the original broadcast if the major/minor channel number combinations are coordinated in the local broadcast area to avoid conflicts. The coordination process is beyond the scope of this document.

This is what USDTV does. They use major channel number 99.
http://www.atsc.org/standards/virtual_channels.html
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