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post #271 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I forgot to post it here, but KTCI-DT now wants to relocate to channel 23 rather than 38. WDSE in Duluth paid them off.

We'll see what the FCC says.

- Trip

Trip,

When they (a station, in this KTCI) ask for a new channel, do they give any suggested info on what they would like to do, IE, ERP and xmtr location?

EDIT: also, did you get the TS data from Kevin for the Twin Cities up on Rabbitears yet?

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post #272 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjvrieze View Post

Trip,

When they (a station, in this KTCI) ask for a new channel, do they give any suggested info on what they would like to do, IE, ERP and xmtr location?

EDIT: also, did you get the TS data from Kevin for the Twin Cities up on Rabbitears yet?

Yes. It's in the petition for rule making. If you'll check on my channel change page, you'll see that I have extracted the proposed power and height (413m 700 kW DA) from the documentation. You can look at the joint request yourself if you wish to get the coordinates.

http://www.rabbitears.info/chchg.php

And yes, the data is up (it was one of the only things I could do while my Internet was dropping packets left and right) but I have yet to get caught up on my e-mails so I hadn't gotten back to him about it yet. I hope to do that this evening.

- Trip

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post #273 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Yes. It's in the petition for rule making. If you'll check on my channel change page, you'll see that I have extracted the proposed power and height (413m 700 kW DA) from the documentation. You can look at the joint request yourself if you wish to get the coordinates.

http://www.rabbitears.info/chchg.php

Ok, thanks for the info. Wow, 700kW, that would match KTCA-DT's range pretty well, I would bet! (or exceed it!)
I have not looked at that page since liek Jan-Feb, I didn't know you were keeping it up to date, way to go!
Quote:


And yes, the data is up (it was one of the only things I could do while my Internet was dropping packets left and right) but I have yet to get caught up on my e-mails so I hadn't gotten back to him about it yet. I hope to do that this evening.

- Trip

Ah, ok.. I think that I will see Kevin tonight anyway... (we are usually together at least 3 times a week anyway) I will be sure to let him know that it is up...

Another note: I see KTCI-DT "wastes" a ton of bandwidth between their two subs.

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post #274 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gjvrieze View Post

Ok, thanks for the info. Wow, 700kW, that would match KTCA-DT's range pretty well, I would bet! (or exceed it!)

Things have slowed down, but I do update it every time I see a new filing.

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I have not looked at that page since liek Jan-Feb, I didn't know you were keeping it up to date, way to go!

It should exceed it. The power level is slightly higher, and the channel number is lower.

Quote:


Ah, ok.. I think that I will see Kevin tonight anyway... (we are usually together at least 3 times a week anyway) I will be sure to let him know that it is up...

Alright, I really do appreciate it. You can see the listings are now updated. =)

Quote:


Another note: I see KTCI-DT "wastes" a ton of bandwidth between their two subs.

Well, they have the Update TV stuff, which sucks up 2 Mbps, and then they said on the website that they're reserving the rest of it for future services. I just poked on their site and couldn't find that announcement anymore, but I do remember reading it.

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post #275 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Things have slowed down, but I do update it every time I see a new filing.



It should exceed it. The power level is slightly higher, and the channel number is lower.



Alright, I really do appreciate it. You can see the listings are now updated. =)



Well, they have the Update TV stuff, which sucks up 2 Mbps, and then they said on the website that they're reserving the rest of it for future services. I just poked on their site and couldn't find that announcement anymore, but I do remember reading it.

- Trip

Did Kevin tell you that he got KPXM-DT over 100miles away (not sure if it was ducting, or the GREAT location our friend up north has!)

I see that they want to run on the KMSP tower (as one would have thought) I am wondering, if they plan to take over the WUCW-TV feedline and antenna... I am reading the engineering data and not seeing anything about that... $27,500, is not that much money, so I would assume, TPT can move KTCI relatively cheaply... (or maybe it was in their budget all along to move RF channels, with new combiner, antenna and feedline, maybe even new xmtr....)

As to the bandwidth thing, you are probably right, however, I wish they would run TPT2 on KTCA-DT at full bandwidth and the SD subs on KTCI-DT... Although, TPT Life looks fantastic, compared to the crap that PBS Create looked like (if you ever want a screen cap/recording, let me know!)

EDIT, I forgot the WUCW-TV antenna was/is on the Telefarm, not the KMSP tower. So TPT must be planning some tower work this summer to get KTCI-DT on the air on its' final RF channel.

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post #276 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gjvrieze View Post

Did Kevin tell you that he got KPXM-DT over 100miles away (not sure if it was ducting, or the GREAT location our friend up north has!)

No, he didn't tell me it was such a distance. That's great!

Quote:


I see that they want to run on the KMSP tower (as one would have thought) I am wondering, if they plan to take over the WUCW-TV feedline and antenna... I am reading the engineering data and not seeing anything about that... $27,500, is not that much money, so I would assume, TPT can move KTCI relatively cheaply... (or maybe it was in their budget all along to move RF channels, with new combiner, antenna and feedline, maybe even new xmtr....)

I read through the joint request and apparently the $27,500 is for the legal paperwork and for the technician and parts to adjust the existing transmitter and combiner which were modified or acquired for channel 38.

EDIT: Ah, you added paragraphs!

I would hope that once KTCI-DT is powered up, they will do some more shuffling. KTCA-DT has such a large coverage area at this point that if they want MN Channel to have wide coverage, they have to have it on the channel 34 signal.

- Trip

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post #277 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

No, he didn't tell me it was such a distance. That's great!

Opps, it was only around 85 miles, but still pretty decent! (just ran tvfool data to be sure!)

Quote:


I read through the joint request and apparently the $27,500 is for the legal paperwork and for the technician and parts to adjust the existing transmitter and combiner which were modified or acquired for channel 38.

That makes sense. I was skim reading the like 13 PDFs that I had open!
Quote:


EDIT: Ah, you added paragraphs!

I would hope that once KTCI-DT is powered up, they will do some more shuffling. KTCA-DT has such a large coverage area at this point that if they want MN Channel to have wide coverage, they have to have it on the channel 34 signal.

- Trip

I knew it when I posted, that you were going to be replying and and my edit would mess you up... Sorry about that....

The MN channel is prolly important TPT sense they produce it!

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post #278 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by gjvrieze View Post

I knew it when I posted, that you were going to be replying and and my edit would mess you up... Sorry about that....

The MN channel is prolly important TPT sense they produce it!

No worries.

Yes, I would imagine it is. I figure they'd have Life on it if they could still get must-carry for it there.

And I noticed that my site was listing 2-3 and 2-4 before 2-1 and 2-2, so I've changed KTCA's display channel number to 1 until I figure out what to do with it.

- Trip

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post #279 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

No worries.

Yes, I would imagine it is. I figure they'd have Life on it if they could still get must-carry for it there.

And I noticed that my site was listing 2-3 and 2-4 before 2-1 and 2-2, so I've changed KTCA's display channel number to 1 until I figure out what to do with it.

- Trip

Ok.


As to my antenna thoughts from earlier. KMSP-DT-26 uses/used a Dielectric TUP-SP4-12S-1 antenna, at 415M AGL, KTCI-DT-23 as submitted would be the same, so reasoning stands that they will buy it and convert it. It must be adjustable, 24MHz is not that big of an off set, I would not think it would be a lot of adjustment, to bring it to channel 23.

Guessing that it is this antenna:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...e26antenna.jpg

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post #280 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by gjvrieze View Post

Ok.


As to my antenna thoughts from earlier. KMSP-DT-26 uses/used a Dielectric TUP-SP4-12S-1 antenna, at 415M AGL, KTCI-DT-23 as submitted would be the same, so reasoning stands that they will buy it and convert it. It must be adjustable, 24MHz is not that big of an off set, I would not think it would be a lot of adjustment, to bring it to channel 23.

Guessing that it is this antenna:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s...e26antenna.jpg

Quite possibly. Given that they're using a combiner, that means other broadcasters are using that antenna, so it's not channel specific. It might not need any work at all, if that's the case.

- Trip

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post #281 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Quite possibly. Given that they're using a combiner, that means other broadcasters are using that antenna, so it's not channel specific. It might not need any work at all, if that's the case.

- Trip

Interesting point. I was thinking of combiner for multiple transmitter racks, not stations, but you are the authority and I would suspect you are correct. (I did not even know combo TV antennas were widely used, I know that they are in FM, as is the case of the master FM antenna system on the KMSP tower)

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post #282 of 2260 Old 05-12-2009, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gjvrieze View Post

Interesting point. I was thinking of combiner for multiple transmitter racks, not stations, but you are the authority and I would suspect you are correct. (I did not even know combo TV antennas were widely used, I know that they are in FM, as is the case of the master FM antenna system on the KMSP tower)

I wouldn't call myself an authority. But look, KTCA-DT 34 is using the same antenna as KMSP-DT 26. The only way they could get away with that is with a combiner of some kind going into a broad antenna.

Combiners are generally avoided because you can get better performance out of a channel-specific antenna, but sometimes they're used if space is a concern. (Example: Empire State Building, where 2/4/7/9/11/13 are all on a combiner.)

- Trip

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post #283 of 2260 Old 05-17-2009, 08:11 PM
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Great that you helped clear up most of the KTCI fiasco. Couple questions remain
1] Come 6/12/09 will KTCI be on Ch.26 or 16 or 23?
2]Is there currently an FCC plan to notify people to re-scan when these stations move around or do they really expect the first thing to pop into my parents mind is to re-scan when suddenly a TV Station disappears?

KSTC question, I see they plan early (5/26) shut off of analog to ready their antenna to become digital 45 (currently on 44)...again does that mean come 6/12 need to rescan for that change.

Lastly, I continue to see KXPM showing on antennaweb.org, as in Minneapolis come 6/12...my reading still has that out for unknown time to come...right??
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post #284 of 2260 Old 05-17-2009, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Doc Sief View Post

Great that you helped clear up most of the KTCI fiasco. Couple questions remain
1] Come 6/12/09 will KTCI be on Ch.26 or 16 or 23?

If I were a betting person, I'd say channel 16. Even if the FCC approves the move to 23 in time, I doubt the equipment can be adjusted in time, unless it's already been done.

Quote:


2]Is there currently an FCC plan to notify people to re-scan when these stations move around or do they really expect the first thing to pop into my parents mind is to re-scan when suddenly a TV Station disappears?

It's in the stations' interest to run crawls and notices that their signal is moving. I imagine that is what will be done in advance of the move. The most recent digital TV ads have been advising people to scan each month anyway.

Quote:


KSTC question, I see they plan early (5/26) shut off of analog to ready their antenna to become digital 45 (currently on 44)...again does that mean come 6/12 need to rescan for that change.

Yes. I imagine it will move at the same time KSTP does.

Quote:


Lastly, I continue to see KXPM [sic] showing on antennaweb.org, as in Minneapolis come 6/12...my reading still has that out for unknown time to come...right??

KPXM-DT has not been approved for their requested move into Minneapolis yet, so it cannot happen. Even if it was to be approved today, I doubt the necessary tower crew is available to make it happen before June 12.

- Trip

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post #285 of 2260 Old 05-18-2009, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I wouldn't call myself an authority. But look, KTCA-DT 34 is using the same antenna as KMSP-DT 26. The only way they could get away with that is with a combiner of some kind going into a broad antenna.

Combiners are generally avoided because you can get better performance out of a channel-specific antenna, but sometimes they're used if space is a concern. (Example: Empire State Building, where 2/4/7/9/11/13 are all on a combiner.)

- Trip

The KMSP tower is a busy tower, it has almost all of the Twin Cities FM stations on it, running off of a cool master broadcast antenna system (similar to the ESB or other skyscraper locations)

I wish that I had spent more time at the tower site and got better pictures and looked better at each antenna. For what it is worth, KMSP-DT-26/KTCA-DT-34 are the easiest DTs to lock my place down in the hole in Rochester.

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post #286 of 2260 Old 05-19-2009, 09:26 AM
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Thanks for the info, and the typo on KPXM! I have sent several emails to Antennaweb.org about giving us false hope on KPXM moving to Shoreview towers come 6/12, but I never get a straight answer. I see TVFool.com has it right.
Other thing about TVFool is that it shows if KTCI changes to Ch. 26 at that stupid low power originally planned then I'll lose my reception downstairs (I use RCA ANT2000 @6ft AGL).
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post #287 of 2260 Old 05-19-2009, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Doc Sief View Post

Thanks for the info, and the typo on KPXM! I have sent several emails to Antennaweb.org about giving us false hope on KPXM moving to Shoreview towers come 6/12, but I never get a straight answer. I see TVFool.com has it right.
Other thing about TVFool is that it shows if KTCI changes to Ch. 26 at that stupid low power originally planned then I'll lose my reception downstairs (I use RCA ANT2000 @6ft AGL).

If you get KTCI-DT on channel 16, I would expect that you will receive them, no matter where they move.

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post #288 of 2260 Old 05-19-2009, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by gjvrieze View Post

If you get KTCI-DT on channel 16, I would expect that you will receive them, no matter where they move.

I am in a slight depression from the Pilot Knob Hill so it makes all my stations Single Edge to Double Edge Diffraction, so the Noise Margin drops just low enough to make it hard to pick up. EASY Upstairs of course!

I see a major problem with KTCI trying to stay with Ch 16 as K19ER is also on Ch. 16 not a problem at low power would be an issue if increased power.
We live in interesting times!
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post #289 of 2260 Old 05-19-2009, 12:38 PM
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Another interesting problem is this darned Horizontal polarization, end of last week, Channel 41 [KPXM] did minor antenna work, and suddenly both my antennae lost their signal, upstairs antenna had to be raised 5 inches (10% increased to 25% signal when raised up), but still have been unable to consistently get station downstairs (constantly hover around 10%).
I think as much as my wife hates outdoor antenna, if Channel 41 doesn't move I might have a case for it!
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post #290 of 2260 Old 05-19-2009, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Doc Sief View Post

Another interesting problem is this darned Horizontal polarization, end of last week, Channel 41 [KPXM] did minor antenna work, and suddenly both my antennae lost their signal, upstairs antenna had to be raised 5 inches (10% increased to 25% signal when raised up), but still have been unable to consistently get station downstairs (constantly hover around 10%).
I think as much as my wife hates outdoor antenna, if Channel 41 doesn't move I might have a case for it!

Do you mean KPXM-DT or KPXM-TV. I understand that their analog is at reduced power now.

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post #291 of 2260 Old 05-20-2009, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

I would look at the Winegard HD 7695.There is a larger version as well.
No need for Low Band VHF (2-6) anymore. Unless she is using her tv antenna to pick up FM channels? Then the 7084 would make sense.
The word "valley" in St.Croix Valley kind of tells a story on the potential difficulties with reception at your Mother's location.

actually got a deal on a winegard 7084 from solid signal (open box)for my mom and only was like $60.00 so i am gonna give it a whirl this weekend and see how it does.
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post #292 of 2260 Old 05-20-2009, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by gjvrieze View Post

Do you mean KPXM-DT or KPXM-TV. I understand that their analog is at reduced power now.

Yeah their analog is worthless.
As to antenna work, they were doing minor maintenance of the Digital antenna, resulted in just slight motion, and now both my flat RCA ANT 2000 antennae have had to be moved 4-6 inches up or down to get maximum signal, it is truly amazing how so much as a bump to a transmitter at 46 miles away can move a null zone big enough to seriously affect antenna signal strength.
Now if my wife would let me put up an attic or outside antenna, it would be a different story. I have heard reports of similar findings from several friends using horizontal antennae like mine or similar, noting new null zones.
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post #293 of 2260 Old 05-25-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

If I were a betting person, I'd say channel 16. Even if the FCC approves the move to 23 in time, I doubt the equipment can be adjusted in time, unless it's already been done.

If you were betting, you may have won the jackpot.

According to Northpine.com, the FCC is proposing that 23 be approved for use by KTCI.

However, since the move involves changing the table of allotments, there's technically a 25-day period for comments and reply comments. There's also the matter of needing a construction permit.

June 12 is only 18 days away as of this post.

The notice from the FCC is here: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-09-1125A1.pdf

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"ItÂs looking more like Y2K than the Bay of Pigs." - FCC Commissioner Adelstein, 6-13-09, on the DTV switch
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post #294 of 2260 Old 05-30-2009, 08:58 AM
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Is it just me, or have 4, 5, 11 and 23 DTV channels dropped off the air this morning? I had nothing on 23 when I turned on my TV this morning, but 4, 5 and 11 were fine till sometime just after 10:00 AM. Now I get nothing - registering zero signal strength/quality on my TV.

I believe all of those channels are on just one of the two antennas out of Shoreview. DTV channels on the other antenna (2, 9, 29) seem to be coming in as strong as ever, and all analog channels (both antennas?) are fine.

[update]
Never mind. A few minutes after posting the question, all the channels came back one after the other. Typical - the problem would go away as soon as I ask.
[/update]
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post #295 of 2260 Old 05-30-2009, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kedirekin View Post

Is it just me, or have 4, 5, 11 and 23 DTV channels dropped off the air this morning? I had nothing on 23 when I turned on my TV this morning, but 4, 5 and 11 were fine till sometime just after 10:00 AM. Now I get nothing - registering zero signal strength/quality on my TV.
I believe all of those channels are on just one of the two antennas out of Shoreview. DTV channels on the other antenna (2, 9, 29) seem to be coming in as strong as ever, and all analog channels (both antennas?) are fine.

[update]
Never mind. A few minutes after posting the question, all the channels came back one after the other. Typical - the problem would go away as soon as I ask.
[/update]

Isn't that typical!
I did notice though that signal strength seems to be higher. It seems we had been having issues especially with KARE11-DT but shows up much stronger (from 25% to 40%)...we are always out of the loop.
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post #296 of 2260 Old 05-30-2009, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

KPXM-DT has not been approved for their requested move into Minneapolis yet, so it cannot happen. Even if it was to be approved today, I doubt the necessary tower crew is available to make it happen before June 12.

- Trip

I notice in the FCC Tiger Maps for KPXM has their transmitter in Shoreview as well! on the 'DT-CP' instead of 'DT-LIC'.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...DT1251524.html
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post #297 of 2260 Old 05-30-2009, 02:16 PM
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CP = Construction Permit. The permit was granted on 05/27, so they now have three years to build that facility.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #298 of 2260 Old 06-02-2009, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

CP = Construction Permit. The permit was granted on 05/27, so they now have three years to build that facility.

- Trip

Even the parent company Ion TV is mute on the subject of when or if to move. Poor KPXM. Just with their current tower and location, results in only good reception if antenna is in window in right orientation otherwise drops below 15 % and picture starts to hang and pixelate. And a large number of Twin Citizens use only indoor antenna, or small attic or outdoors antenna that are aimed at Shoreview thereby limiting the ability to pick up Channel 41.
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post #299 of 2260 Old 06-06-2009, 11:43 AM
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KPXM in St Cloud/Minneapolis, a daughter station of Ion TV, has paperwork submitted to FCC detailing bankruptcy and receivership status.

Wonder what that will do to all their plans to move transmitters.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/p...es/1313010.pdf
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post #300 of 2260 Old 06-12-2009, 05:32 PM
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That's interesting, the FCC allowed the TX move on 6/1, then they file bankruptcy 6 days later? I've been in the big lake plant a few times, it's quite the engineering feat. 5MW transmitter, klystron tube setup, solid state harris digital. I'm sure the power bill and tube replacement bill is what drove them into bankruptcy. I think it's funny that the FCC will even allow this move, since the license is to St. Cloud, not the Twin Cities, a 65 mile difference. Although, they'd also be taking a height hit, but does that even matter anymore? (going from 1520ft to 1430ft)
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