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post #991 of 2307 Old 07-21-2011, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

BTW does anyone know if this is happening in any other markets?

In case others missed it in my earlier post, the exact reason TPT gave me for the change was:
Quote:


Nearly half of the PBS stations around the country broadcast in 720p, claiming that the improved compression efficiency of the format results in better quality. So we thought we should do the same.

So far I'd definitely say the "better quality" part is still missing.
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post #992 of 2307 Old 07-21-2011, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post

Thanks Trip, looks like a fair number PBS channels broadcast in 720p, is this becoming more common(not just with PBS but other networks also) to downconvert to 720p or is it very rare?

It's rare with most other networks, unless you're doing dual HD. Then a 1080i will usually be converted to 720p. There are also a few ABC stations that get converted to 1080i for one reason or another. One that comes to mind is WFAA Dallas.

I have a non-PBS cross-conversion list here: http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsanden...equest=netflip

You'll note a good number of them are CW or My affiliates that are cross-converted to match the resolution of a sister station.

Quote:


BTW I'm a little confused with your listings for PBS channel 2.2(MN channel). You list it as physical channel 34.4 in one spot KTCA(which I believe it is) but under KTCI you have it listed as display channel 17.2 and Physical channel 23.7. I believe the KTCI part is wrong, we no longer have a display channel 17 and the MN channel is on physical channel 34.

For whatever reason, KTCI is feeding MN Channel that has been mapped to 17-2 on and off. Don't ask me why, because you're correct about its presence on KTCA 2-2, but it's in the TSReader data.

http://www.rabbitears.info/screencap.../68597-0_0.htm

This particular capture doesn't have it mapped, but you can see Program 7 listed and its use of 2 Mbps in the usage chart at the bottom. In this case, due to lack of PSIP associated with it, it would display as 23-7 on some TVs and others would ignore it. I've left it as 17-2 even though my most recent capture doesn't have it mapped because I didn't want to confuse people with regard to WUCW.

Quote:


When I do a channel scan on my Sony TV I do get 23.8 and 23.9 but as you say it's just dead air.

It's not dead air per se. It's datacasting that is used for software updates to certain devices. Of course, as such, it will never display any kind of programming, so you might as well call it dead air.

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Originally Posted by TCDTV View Post

In case others missed it in my earlier post, the exact reason TPT gave me for the change was: So far I'd definitely say the "better quality" part is still missing.

In the presence of a lot of subchannels or high compression for any reason, you tend to get less pixelation when you use 720p versus 1080i. This is why stations that are doing dual HD are usually (though not always) doing dual 720p. I have a list of those, too.

http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsanden...request=dualhd

That's what they mean when they say "better quality."

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #993 of 2307 Old 07-21-2011, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LithOTA View Post

WTTW in Chicago added the subs several years ago, and many forum members are still upset about it.

I remember that time well, and that's probably an understatement, considering the dramatic change that took place. The bogus responses we got from the station never helped matters any, to this day (such as the all-time great one of, "It looks fine to us" - and then we found out they were watching it on 20" screens). I think some contributors here did pull their support (at least they said they were going to).

However, I wish they would've at least stayed at 720p, rather than going back up to 1080i again more recently (whatever possessed them, I don't know), while still retaining all those subchannels they added back then, when they first dropped from 1080i to 720p.

I can't even stand to watch it anymore, because the artifacting is just so darned terrible. Anytime anything moves at all - even jiggles a bit - it makes me want to throw up. Given the choice between then and now, I would much rather live with the lowered resolution. At least I could still watch it.
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post #994 of 2307 Old 07-21-2011, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

In the presence of a lot of subchannels or high compression for any reason, you tend to get less pixelation when you use 720p versus 1080i. This is why stations that are doing dual HD are usually (though not always) doing dual 720p. I have a list of those, too.

http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsanden...request=dualhd

That's what they mean when they say "better quality."

No one that I'm aware of ever complained of pixelation problems with 2-1 at 1080i even with the two SD subchannels, and they aren't currently doing dual HD, so the "better quality" claim by that definition seems misplaced in our particular market unless there are secret plans for them to go dual HD and moving to 720p is the first step in that process.
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post #995 of 2307 Old 07-21-2011, 08:34 PM
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As if on cue, the tropo Gods showed up tonight and I found 9 TC stations coming in (along with all of Wisconsin). I had some trouble figuring out which tpt PBS I was watching, but they looked like all of the others around the neighborhood.
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post #996 of 2307 Old 08-02-2011, 02:08 PM
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Has anyone noticed ads running locally claiming vaguely that free TV is in danger? The ads say nothing specific about exactly how or why free TV is in danger, and a look at the website mentioned in the ad (http://thefutureoftv.org/) says only this on its front page:
Quote:


But the federal government is making decisions about how the airwaves are used, which could limit television's ability to innovate. It could also jeopardize the local news, emergency information and high quality programming on which hundreds of millions of Americans rely.

Elsewhere on the site it says
Quote:


Due to tens of thousands of phone calls and emails from concerned viewers like you, we avoided the immediate threat to local TV as Congress considered debt legislation. But while the battle may be won, the war is not over. There is still the possibility of congressional action when Congress returns to D.C. this fall.

Does anyone know what the heck they're talking about, and is it really a threat to free TV? Being OTA-only, I obviously would care a lot about any serious threat to its existence, but I'm sure as heck not contacting my representatives without at least some reasonable understanding of just what this "threat" is all about and what I'd like them to do (or not do) about it.

Definitely a frustratingly uninformative ad campaign IMHO.
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post #997 of 2307 Old 08-02-2011, 02:25 PM
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I agree the ads could've been produced better. It's all about the National Broadband Plan and how government wants to auction off about 200Mhz of broadcaster spectrum. Here's a recent clip from Broadcast Engineering (a free trade mag).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NAB analysis of FCC spectrum plans predicts dire consequences for many broadcasters
Aug 2, 2011 11:10 AM

A new analysis from the National Association of Broadcasters of the possible impact of the FCC's National Broadband Plan on local television stations paints a bleak picture of massive channel reassignments and a minimum of some 200 stations going dark.

The analysis, released July 25, finds that 40 percent of full-power TV stations could be required to vacate their channel assignments, and of those at least 210 being forced to go off-air permanently.

A total of 672 full-power TV stations would have to be removed from channels 31-51 to meet the FCC's goal of reclaiming 120MHz of spectrum for television broadcasters. This number, some 40 percent of the nation's 1735 full-power stations, compares to 174 stations that were cleared from channels 52-69 and forced onto a new channel.

"If the FCC's National Broadband Plan to recapture 20 more TV channels is implemented, service disruption, confusion and inconvenience for local television viewers will make the 2009 DTV transition seem like child's play," Gordon Smith, NAB president and CEO, is quoted as saying in a press release announcing the analysis.

According to Smith, it is impossible for the FCC to meet its spectrum reclamation goal without its spectrum clearing becoming a government mandate. The NAB favors a truly voluntary spectrum auction.
NAB's analysis of the FCC proposal to recapture 120MHz of TV spectrum reveals:

Top 10 TV markets would be dramatically affected by the FCC proposal, with 73 stations in the largest 10 markets going off the air.
More than half of all TV stations would likely need to disrupt service for millions of viewers for a few hours to a few weeks to accommodate spectrum repacking.
Service disruptions would occur at more than 800 TV stations in large markets, mid-sized markets and small markets. The negative impact would be spread among network-owned stations and affiliates; Spanish and other foreign-language stations; and independent, religious and public TV stations.
Americans living in cities along the Canadian border would bear extra burdens because of international treaty obligations designed to minimize interference between Canadian and U.S. cities. Under the FCC National Broadband Plan, all Detroit TV stations could go dark. Other border cities that could face severe disruptions and loss of service include Buffalo, Seattle, Syracuse, Cleveland, Spokane, Rochester and Watertown, NY, and Flint, MI.
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post #998 of 2307 Old 08-02-2011, 04:46 PM
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Hard to believe any of this would really happen. There was such a big stink made when the stations moved to digital only, what with the delay of the analog turn off so more people had time to get digital converter boxes for their TVs. Now they are talking about getting rid of "free" TV to some extent. I hope the plan never gets put into place. I also use a TV antenna for my local channels and don't want to be required to pay to get local TV.
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post #999 of 2307 Old 08-02-2011, 08:12 PM
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I was completely ok with cutting the spectrum back to 2-51, as the upper UHF band was problematic (from the technical side) and nearly vacant and I'd be fine if they got rid of 2-6 too, but this is RIDICULOUS!!!! Replacing it with national broadband?

From my understanding, OTA viewership is actually on the rise with the recession depression. OTA and Netflix is a pretty good combination for light viewers.

Sadly, I'm not surprised. Common sense and basic public interest usually allude our wise overlords.

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post #1000 of 2307 Old 08-02-2011, 08:31 PM
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Wow! Thanks for the detailed information drice91! I would never have guessed it was really that serious from the vague and over-the top ads and web site.

I hope that if heaven forbid this does come up in congress this fall that the NAB re-tunes their message to be more precise, and perhaps even includes actual bill numbers for people to review and reference in any communications with their representative and/or senator!

If any Twin Cities stations would be forced to shut down I certainly hope it will come up on the local news with enough time to spare for viewers to let their voices be heard in opposition.
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post #1001 of 2307 Old 08-03-2011, 03:07 PM
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I rarely watch WCCO local news(although IMO they have the sharpest studio shots) but I just noticed today a field shot that had a LIVE HD bug in the upper left corner. Like WCCO's studio shots, this field shot was razor sharp and looked great. Is this new or has it been going on for some time?
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post #1002 of 2307 Old 08-03-2011, 05:02 PM
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I really hope I'm not jinxing anything by posting this, but as I'm typing, 2-1 is back at 1080i !
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post #1003 of 2307 Old 08-03-2011, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCDTV View Post
I really hope I'm not jinxing anything by posting this, but as I'm typing, 2-1 is back at 1080i !
So it is and This old house never looked better

edit: Watched several more shows on PBS last night(including a repeat about rats) and I have to say the picture quality looked very good. Better than I remember seeing lately in 720p. IMO 720p can look very good and just watching it I'm quite satisfied but when a good quality 1080i program is broadcast it really stands out
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post #1004 of 2307 Old 08-03-2011, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
I rarely watch WCCO local news(although IMO they have the sharpest studio shots) but I just noticed today a field shot that had a LIVE HD bug in the upper left corner. Like WCCO's studio shots, this field shot was razor sharp and looked great. Is this new or has it been going on for some time?
They started putting that bug up on the screen (and may have also started HD field shots at the same time, but I'm not sure) when a new graphics package was introduced in early June.
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post #1005 of 2307 Old 08-06-2011, 05:29 PM
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It's interesting to see that 2-1 returned to 1080i just before the start of the August pledge drive. I hope TPT will keep their new and renewed members from this drive happy by keeping 2-1 at 1080i after the drive concludes...
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post #1006 of 2307 Old 08-11-2011, 10:57 AM
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It looks like KSTP may finally be getting rid of those annoying VBI lines. The last two newscasts that I've seen on 5-1, as well as a quick look at my recording of last night's Kimmel appear to be missing them during the main program, if not entirely. The portion of the recording that contained a bit of the programming before and after Kimmel did have the lines though, so it may still be a work in progress (or just a temporary fluke.)
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post #1007 of 2307 Old 08-11-2011, 11:18 AM
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Thank you for noticing. It's been a long process and it's not complete yet. The manufacturer (Harris Broadcast) needed to do bug fixes that of course had caused other bugs but we're finally able to get ahead slightly and reap some reward from the effort by having the lines temporarily masked until a real fix can be made. Introducing any new systems these days it's two steps forward and one step back (if your lucky) because manufacturers inadequately test product before release.
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post #1008 of 2307 Old 08-11-2011, 01:07 PM
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No VBI line on Live with R & K either
While the line bothers me if I look at it, I've gotten pretty good at ignoring it(like everyone's station bug). It seems to bother other people watching our TV more than I, if it really bothered me I'd just turn off full pixel on my TVs but I dislike overscan more than the line.
It sure would be nice to see Kimmel or even Live in real HD, I might even watch them more. As it is, when I have a dual tuner conflict with Craig, J.F. and Kimmel, Kimmel loses out because of it's lacking picture quality.
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post #1009 of 2307 Old 08-11-2011, 09:28 PM
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Can anybody here suggest a forum for FM broadcast in this market? I have been hearing KFAN is moving to 100.3 and 102.5 will be on the air Monday for the stuff that was on 100.3!
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post #1010 of 2307 Old 08-11-2011, 09:37 PM
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Ok. So KFAN is going to 100.3 and KTLK is moving to 102.5, but what about K-102. Where does it go?

BTW, I don't know that there is an FM or radio forum on AVS anyway. On the Rochester thread, we discuss radio and internet as well and so far have had no complaints from the mods.

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post #1011 of 2307 Old 08-11-2011, 10:18 PM
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I assume K-102 will remain on 102.1 and the 102.5 is a brand new assignment and transmitter, but I guess I am not totally sure of that. Of course, I am also wondreing if some or all of these will be IBOC and, if so, who will be on the -2 and -3s. Will The Score 690 be on a -2 or -3. I think 100.3-3 right now

Here is what it currently shows at HD Radio http://www.hdradio.com/stations/Minn...is-St.+Paul-54 :

100.3
KTLK

News/Talk KTLK-HD
100.3FM Clear Channel
Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN
Sports/Talk - KFAN-AM KTLK-HD2
100.3-2FM Clear Channel
Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN
Classic Rock - THE WOLF KTLK-HD3
100.3-3FM Clear Channel
Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN


102.1
KEEY

Country KEEY-HD
102.1FM Clear Channel
Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN
New Country / K102 NEW KEEY-HD2
102.1-2FM Clear Channel
Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN

It will be interesting come Monday to see how everything shakes out.
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post #1012 of 2307 Old 08-11-2011, 10:48 PM
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The plan is for KTLK's programming to move to 1130 AM and KFAN's programming to move to 100.3 FM. 1130 AM will eventually be simulcast on a low power translator at 102.5 FM, but probably not beginning on Monday because there is still paperwork with the FCC that needs to be processed and the matter of getting an antenna mounted to the tower on top of the IDS Center. Also after the switch, one or both of the stations may have a different call sign. There are rumors that KTLK might take the KFXN call sign from 690 AM when programming on 100.3 moves to 1130.

Speaking of 690 AM, programming from that station may either move to or be simulcast on the 103.5 FM translator located on top of the IDS Center. Right now, 103.5 rebroadcasts the AM signal of KFAN, but there will be no more need to do this once KFAN programming moves to 100.3.

The default radio message board for the Twin Cities and all of Minnesota is at http://www.redandnater.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=13, but, be warned, since posters do not need to register an account and there is almost no moderation, the board pretty much feels like the wild west where anything goes.
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post #1013 of 2307 Old 08-11-2011, 11:02 PM
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Excuse the brain fart on my part. 102.5 is KMFX "The Fox" in Rochester (actually, it's 15 miles north of the city), also a country station. I got the two mixed up.

Seeing that it is indeed 103.5 instead of 102.5, this all makes sense. (If it were on 102.5, there would be significant interference with KMFX).

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post #1014 of 2307 Old 08-11-2011, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp View Post

Seeing that it is indeed 103.5 instead of 102.5, this all makes sense. (If it were on 102.5, there would be significant interference with KMFX).

Radio conglomerate Clear Channel, the owner of both KTLK and KFAN, has been steadily laying the groundwork to take over several low power translators in the Twin Cities from Educational Media Foundation, which runs the Christian K-LOVE and Air 1 radio networks. The first translator was acquired last year and is the one currently rebroadcasting KFAN on 103.5 FM. The next one, soon to be in Clear Channel's hands, is the one licensed to Fridley on 102.5 FM. This is the one that Clear Channel has said will rebroadcast KTLK's programming when what is now on 100.3 FM goes to 1130 AM. In conjunction with the takeover by Clear Channel, the 102.5 translator is to increase power from 41 Watts to 250 Watts and move from Fridley to the top of the IDS Center, where the 103.5 translator was also moved to. On paper, this move and increase in power is not expected to cause illegal interference to the core part of the KMFX listening area. However, there will no doubt be interference to some of the fringe areas of KMFX's signal, but unless a legitimate complaint is filed with the FCC, nothing will likely be done, because KMFX is also owned by Clear Channel, and the company may be willing to compromise KMFX's signal in order to get the translator's signal to as large an audience as possible.

Other translators that Clear Channel may buy and use in the future include 93.3 FM (licensed to Shoreview), 97.7 FM (licensed to Albertville), and 99.9 FM (licensed to Coon Rapids). As with the 102.5 and 103.5 translators, these stations would all broadcast from atop the IDS Center. Clear Channel is able to get hold of all these signals and still keep all their full power stations (K102, KDWB, Kool 108, KTLK, KFAN, KFXN) in the Twin Cities because the FCC does not take into account translators in regulating the number of stations one entity can own in a given market.
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post #1015 of 2307 Old 08-12-2011, 02:12 AM
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^Although I have a tenuous grasp of what you are talking about (at best)...it sounds like some kind of evil chess match.

Former USSB uplink operator.
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post #1016 of 2307 Old 08-12-2011, 09:45 AM
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Just an FYI that KSTP/KSTC has just completed an agreement to carry MeTv and we're beginning our technical planning with the goal to launch by December. Because of bandwidth concerns we will be broadcasting MeTv on RF 45 but branding as 5-3. You can see example MeTv program schedules at

http://www.metvnetwork.com/
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post #1017 of 2307 Old 08-12-2011, 01:20 PM
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I'm looking for some antenna advice.

I currently have a pathetic little indoor antenna that came with an HD PC tuner card I bought 4yrs ago mounted in my attic. It actually works pretty well, but isn't perfect.

Since I'm doing some wiring in my attic at the moment, I thought I'd take the opportunity to install a real outdoor antenna.

I used TVFool to run a report for my area (Rosemount). The results can be viewed here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3e4712e77aa6ca

If possible I would like to hook my stereo to the antenna as well. Don't know if all antennas would work for that or whether there are specific ones that do HDTV and OTA audio??

I'm looking for a relatively cheap antenna that will provide solid performance. I'm not looking for the high end.

Any recommendations?
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post #1018 of 2307 Old 08-12-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drice91 View Post
Just an FYI that KSTP/KSTC has just completed an agreement to carry MeTv and we're beginning our technical planning with the goal to launch by December. Because of bandwidth concerns we will be broadcasting MeTv on RF 45 but branding as 5-3. You can see example MeTv program schedules at

http://www.metvnetwork.com/
Looks good, I see several programs I'd probably be watching if it were on the air now
Being OTA only it will be nice to have a channel that plays older TV shows, THIS channel seems to be basically older movies not TV shows.
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post #1019 of 2307 Old 08-12-2011, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drice91 View Post

Just an FYI that KSTP/KSTC has just completed an agreement to carry MeTv and we're beginning our technical planning with the goal to launch by December. Because of bandwidth concerns we will be broadcasting MeTv on RF 45 but branding as 5-3. You can see example MeTv program schedules at

http://www.metvnetwork.com/

Dick,

By any chance have you or anybody else there tried the http://rcaportabletv.com/products/mo...v/mobile-dtv4/ RCA Mobile DTV Car Tuner Model DMT3BR yet?

Jim
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post #1020 of 2307 Old 08-12-2011, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrewjb View Post

.....I'm looking for some antenna advice.

I used TVFool to run a report for my area (Rosemount). The results can be viewed here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3e4712e77aa6ca

If possible I would like to hook my stereo to the antenna as well. Don't know if all antennas would work for that or whether there are specific ones that do HDTV and OTA audio??

I'm looking for a relatively cheap antenna that will provide solid performance. I'm not looking for the high end. Any recommendations?.....

Hi, neighbor! I am also in Rosemount! You probably already know this, but local FM broadcasters are VHF. Most of the local TV channels are UHF. Actually most of them except 9 and 11. That means you could get by with a Channel Master CM-4228HD pointed roughly at Shoreview/IDS Center. The official company line is:

-One antenna cut for VHF for FM,

-Another antenna cut for UHF for TV.

Considering your location and that you posted you want a relatively cheap antenna, you might want to consider the Channel Master CM-4228HD with a splitter. One feedline for TV and the other for FM. You can always add another antennas later, if necessary.
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