Minneapolis, MN - OTA - Page 74 - AVS Forum
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Local HDTV Info and Reception > Minneapolis, MN - OTA
primetimeguy's Avatar primetimeguy 03:46 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA View Post
I recall those high quality feeds, and have seen the same discussions about sat providers. I think it all boils down to revenue - if a broadcaster/provider can extract more revenue out of their current model, they'll do it - even if it comes at the cost of quality. There is not a lot viewers can do, since even in the case of OTA where broadcasters answer to the public, they're not required to deliver HD in the first place. At least more options exist now for that programming (if network), such as streaming.
Agree, even just a couple years ago OTA was the best broadcast quality we could get. But with all the subchannels that has faded. The few things I have watched via "HD" streaming were better than I get from Dishnetwork.

primetimeguy's Avatar primetimeguy 06:31 PM 06-26-2014
I've never watched Hells Kitchen on FOX before so don't know what to expect for quality, but flipped to it during NBA Draft and it looks like DVD quality. This was on both HD channels.
worachj's Avatar worachj 06:43 PM 06-26-2014
My TiVo has updated guide data for the new changes after making a service connection. But guess what, its messed up!

9.1, 9.2, 9.9 have correct guide data, but some of the call letters are screwed up.

9.3 & 9.4 is completely wrong.

Be carefull with using guide data for your recordings. I'll try contacting TiVo and try to get things fixed. Why is this process never easy!
Tharkûn 08:24 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by worachj View Post
My TiVo has updated guide data for the new changes after making a service connection. But guess what, its messed up!

9.1, 9.2, 9.9 have correct guide data, but some of the call letters are screwed up.

9.3 & 9.4 is completely wrong.

Be carefull with using guide data for your recordings. I'll try contacting TiVo and try to get things fixed. Why is this process never easy!
Everything checks OK here using home built DVR and guide from SnapStream...

9.1 WFTCDT2 = KMSP HD - FOX 9
9.2 WFTCDT1 = WFTC HD - MY 29
9.3 WFTCDT3 = MOVIES! SD
9.4 KMSPDT2 = BOUNCE SD
9.9 KMSPDT1 = KMSP HD - FOX 9
veedon's Avatar veedon 08:27 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharkûn View Post
This was in large part about PQ.

Many viewers had difficulty getting RF9 and relied on the SD version of KMSP on RF29 So getting an HD version of KMSP on RF29 is a significant improvement.

Grouping the channels under the single major channel "9" was to make viewing the KMSP and WFTC offerings more convenient for OTA viewers, of which there are a large number in the Twin Cities and surrounding area.
Exactly. The changes have resulted in a benefit for any OTA viewers that are unable to receive RF9. They can now receive on RF29 a HD version of Fox9.

I do wonder, though, why MyNetwork even exists. It's not a real network, it's just a programming syndication service.

I'm not even sure that FOX is a real network. It's not even thirty years old yet, and as everyone knows, you should never trust anyone under 30.
jjeff's Avatar jjeff 08:48 PM 06-26-2014
Well I pulled up my Tivo grid and guess what, NO 9 channels AT ALL! Nothing, goes right from 5 to 11. I was manually able to tune 9.2-9.9 but NADA for 9.1, just a blank screen
Wonder if this means I have to do another 30! minute channel scan damn this gets old. My LCD still scans them all but nada for my Tivo. Maybe I'll start the channel scan before going to bed, hopefully it will find 9.1 and put the other 9s back in my favorite grid, otherwise it will be more work to recheck them for the second time! stay tuned....
worachj's Avatar worachj 08:50 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharkûn View Post
Everything checks OK here using home built DVR and guide from SnapStream...

9.1 WFTCDT2 = KMSP HD - FOX 9
9.2 WFTCDT1 = WFTC HD - MY 29
9.3 WFTCDT3 = MOVIES! SD
9.4 KMSPDT2 = BOUNCE SD
9.9 KMSPDT1 = KMSP HD - FOX 9
Thanks. You would think 9.1 call letters should be KMSP and not WFTCD.

The TiVo gets its guide data from the Tribune and has the same call letters that you show, but they have Bounce on the wrong channel 9.3 and some wrong lineup on 9.4.
worachj's Avatar worachj 08:52 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
Well I pulled up my Tivo grid and guess what, NO 9 channels AT ALL! Nothing, goes right from 5 to 11. I was manually able to tune 9.2-9.9 but NADA for 9.1, just a blank screen
Wonder if this means I have to do another 30! minute channel scan damn this gets old. My LCD still scans them all but nada for my Tivo. Maybe I'll start the channel scan before going to bed, hopefully it will find 9.1 and put the other 9s back in my favorite grid, otherwise it will be more work to recheck them for the second time! stay tuned....
I had to go into channel lineup and select(check) the correct channels.
jjeff's Avatar jjeff 09:07 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by worachj View Post
I had to go into channel lineup and select(check) the correct channels.
Thanks, I tried that and it brought back 9.2-9.9 but nada for 9.1. Nothing on 9.1, just a blank screen. I noticed my Tivo updated it's guide at 4pm, probably the time I lost 9.1 and and the rest of the 9s off my grid.
Started the 30 minute channel scan, I'll check back in the AM and force a guide update(next one wasn't scheduled until Saturday early AM).
veedon's Avatar veedon 09:23 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by worachj View Post
Thanks. You would think 9.1 call letters should be KMSP and not WFTCD.

The TiVo gets its guide data from the Tribune and has the same call letters that you show, but they have Bounce on the wrong channel 9.3 and some wrong lineup on 9.4.
Ha! Sounds as though TiVo is "old school". It knows that there's a station called KMSP whose FCC-approved channel allocation is RF9. And WFTC is a completely different station, whose allocation is RF29. So any feed that is from the RF29 transmitter is regarded as a subchannel of WFTC, even if that subchannel happens to be simulcasting the HD feed of KMSP "Fox 9" and even though the PSIP info shows 9-1 as the virtual channel number for that feed from WFTC's RF29 transmission.

Notice how TiVo uses a channel label of WFTCDT1 for the MyTV subchannel of RF29, regarding MyTV as being the primary programming because WFTC is a MyTV station. But clearly the company that owns both of the stations wants to emphasize the "FOX 9" branding and has chosen to use 9 as the virtual channel number for all of the feeds. It even calls the "Fox 9" subchannel of RF29, 9-1 rather than 9-2, making FOX the big dog and kind of downplaying poor little My.
jjeff's Avatar jjeff 04:28 AM 06-27-2014
Well after a rescan I was told my Tivo found some new channels, ALL in the 29s
Still NADA for 9.1, just a blank screen, the other 9s come in fine.
Just to verify, for the options for 9.1 I get: 9.1 WFTCDT2, *KMSP-HD(which I have checked and marked as a favorite as to have it show on my grid), K14KED and finally K19CVD.
I don't know, should I select WFTCDT2 which my Tivo reports as being frequency 29......I thought 9.1 was supposed to be frequency 9 IMO this whole real/virtual channel thing while cool in theory is a major PIA! It ain't cool when one has to do multiple 30 minute channel scans to still get nothing...I'll try connecting to Tivo to see if a program download changes anything.
jjeff's Avatar jjeff 04:40 AM 06-27-2014
OK after the program download I now have listings for all the 9s, AFA 9.1 I followed the suggestion of worachj above and used WFTCDT2 and low and behold I now have 9.1....no don't ask me if it's truly 9.1 or really 9.9(because remember my channel lineup thinks 9.1 is physical channel 29) but regardless it seems to be working, oh and my BOUNCE(channel 9.4) seems to have the correct program info, it shows Soul Train now and thats whats playing.
worachj's Avatar worachj 06:44 AM 06-27-2014
I just forced a connection to the TiVo service to get any updates. My TiVo premiere is still messed up. All the channels are mapped to the correct number but 9.3 & 9.4 have bad guide data. My guide has bounce on 9.3 when it should be 9.4. Guide data on 9.4 is the same as 9.2 which is wrong. So this is what I have.

9.1 RF29 WFTCDT2 correct guide data
9.2 RF29 WFTCDT correct guide data
9.3 RF29 WFTCDT3 BAD guide data
9.4 RF9 KMSPDT2 BAD guide data
9.9 RF9 KMSPT correct guide data

Last night I sent TiVo another message trying to correct the problem. As stated by "veedon" they are hung up on having the same call letters for a frequency when in fact two different stations are sharing the same frequencies. That's why all the RF29's are WFTCD and RF9's are KMSPT.

The call letters should be changed! Instead of KMSPDT2 it should be BOUNCE, etc.
worachj's Avatar worachj 08:17 AM 06-27-2014
I've been looking at the TV listings on zap2it.com, which TiVo mirrors for its guide data. It's changed a couple of times this morning. Right now it is showing the correct guide data for our area. Hopefully it won't be long before it gets pushed to our TiVo's. Still hate the call letters that show up for the channels in the guide data.
tjjohnsto 05:37 PM 06-27-2014
Using windows media center Windows 7 x64. Yesterday both 9.1 and 9.2 FoxHD/SD local stopped working. I get 100% signal on the tv but just get blank screen on both channels. Media center also says "Service Unavailable". This happened last year and resolves itself. Anyone else seeing similar issue???
jjeff's Avatar jjeff 06:02 PM 06-27-2014
They are probably looking at the wrong physical channel, I had the same thing on my Tivo until I rescanned and downloaded the latest guide info.
Worachj, I've seen you mention a couple times that BOUNCE(9.4) and MOVIES!(9.3) have bad data from Tribune but every time I check what my Tivo says it agrees with whats being broadcast are we seeing something different, what programs are incorrect?
Currently Movies! is showing a movie, The Sterile Cuckoo which the guide says is on and BOUNCE is showing The Newlywed Game and thats what the guide shows. I agree the channel names shown by Tivo/Tribune is very confusing and should be corrected.
tjjohnsto 06:04 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjjohnsto View Post
Using windows media center Windows 7 x64. Yesterday both 9.1 and 9.2 FoxHD/SD local stopped working. I get 100% signal on the tv but just get blank screen on both channels. Media center also says "Service Unavailable". This happened last year and resolves itself. Anyone else seeing similar issue???
Apparently 9.1 and 9.2 are not the same channel. My mistake. Media center just thinks they are for some reason.
Tharkûn 06:23 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by worachj View Post
I just forced a connection to the TiVo service to get any updates. My TiVo premiere is still messed up. All the channels are mapped to the correct number but 9.3 & 9.4 have bad guide data. My guide has bounce on 9.3 when it should be 9.4. Guide data on 9.4 is the same as 9.2 which is wrong. So this is what I have.

9.1 RF29 WFTCDT2 correct guide data
9.2 RF29 WFTCDT correct guide data
9.3 RF29 WFTCDT3 BAD guide data
9.4 RF9 KMSPDT2 BAD guide data
9.9 RF9 KMSPT correct guide data

Last night I sent TiVo another message trying to correct the problem. As stated by "veedon" they are hung up on having the same call letters for a frequency when in fact two different stations are sharing the same frequencies. That's why all the RF29's are WFTCD and RF9's are KMSPT.

The call letters should be changed! Instead of KMSPDT2 it should be BOUNCE, etc.
I checked the TiVo guide data for Minneapolis and discovered they still list WFTCDT4 which was 29.4 Movies! prior to the lineup changes. That sub channel no longer exits and may be causing problems with how the TiVo behaves.

I've sent a message to the guide providers telling them to delete WFTCDT4. Probably won't get removed until Monday.

In the meantime you may try manually removing it from your channel settings.
worachj's Avatar worachj 06:35 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
Worachj, I've seen you mention a couple times that BOUNCE(9.4) and MOVIES!(9.3) have bad data from Tribune but every time I check what my Tivo says it agrees with whats being broadcast are we seeing something different, what programs are incorrect?
Currently Movies! is showing a movie, The Sterile Cuckoo which the guide says is on and BOUNCE is showing The Newlywed Game and thats what the guide shows. I agree the channel names shown by Tivo/Tribune is very confusing and should be corrected.
I have two TiVo's, an S3 which has the correct data and a Premiere which has the problem. I've tried rescanning; made many forced connections to the TiVo service but can't get the guide data updated to the correct stuff. 9.2 & 9.4 have the exact same data which is for WFTC My TV. Channel 9.3 has the data for BOUNCE. I'm hoping the normal daily update will fix it.
worachj's Avatar worachj 06:41 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharkûn View Post
I checked the TiVo guide data for Minneapolis and discovered they still list WFTCDT4 which was 29.4 Movies! prior to the lineup changes. That sub channel no longer exits and may be causing problems with how the TiVo behaves.

I've sent a message to the guide providers telling them to delete WFTCDT4. Probably won't get removed until Monday.

In the meantime you may try manually removing it from your channel settings.
Thanks! The lineup change I sent to TiVo mention that 29.1, 29.2, 29.3, 29.4 be deleted. But WFTCDT4 does seem to be the problem area. I have already unchecked it from my channel lineup, but I will check it again. Thanks for thought!
jjeff's Avatar jjeff 06:42 PM 06-27-2014
That explains it, I have a Tivo HD, which is a series 3. Funny I didn't realize Tivo had different data for the different DVRs, not sure how you get your guide info but I'd have to think I was one of the few still using dial-up. I don't stream with my Tivo and I never purchased a separate WiFi card so I just stick with the phone line thats near my Tivo.
veedon's Avatar veedon 06:45 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by worachj View Post
I just forced a connection to the TiVo service to get any updates. My TiVo premiere is still messed up. All the channels are mapped to the correct number but 9.3 & 9.4 have bad guide data. My guide has bounce on 9.3 when it should be 9.4. Guide data on 9.4 is the same as 9.2 which is wrong. So this is what I have.

9.1 RF29 WFTCDT2 correct guide data
9.2 RF29 WFTCDT correct guide data
9.3 RF29 WFTCDT3 BAD guide data
9.4 RF9 KMSPDT2 BAD guide data
9.9 RF9 KMSPT correct guide data

Last night I sent TiVo another message trying to correct the problem. As stated by "veedon" they are hung up on having the same call letters for a frequency when in fact two different stations are sharing the same frequencies. That's why all the RF29's are WFTCD and RF9's are KMSPT.

The call letters should be changed! Instead of KMSPDT2 it should be BOUNCE, etc.
Hey, how does "multiquote" work in this forum? Is there an explanation somewhere?

Yeah, virtual channel numbers, subchannels, and simulcasting introduce complexities that were not present in the good old days of analog broadcasting.
That's the price you pay for technological advances, I guess.

This might just be semantics, but it's not so much that two different stations are sharing a frequency as it is that one station is simulcasting another station's main feed.

The station known as KMSP is broadcasting two feeds (or subchannels or whatever you want to call them) on its assigned allocation RF9. Those two feeds show up on your TV as 9-4 (Bounce) and 9-9 (FOX9). Notice that Tivo uses a channel label of KMSPDT1 (or something like that) for 9-9 because Tivo regards that "FOX9" feed as the primary subchannel of the channel RF9. And KMSPDT2 is the other subchannel of RF9, carrying BOUNCE. BOUNCE is not a station; it is a diginet that the station KMSP has chosen to carry as a subchannel of its RF9 channel.

According to rabbitears.info, RF9 is also carrying one additional subchannel, a mobile DTV subchannel that is (I guess) essentially a mobile DTV simulcast of the main FOX9 feed. Apparently that mobile DTV subchannel has virtual channel number 9-1, but you would only see it if you have a mobile DTV device. (Intersetingly, 9-1 is also the virtual channel number for the "FOX9" subchannel of WFTC's RF29 channel.)

The station known as WFTC is broadcasting three feeds on its RF29 allocation. The fact that one of those feeds happens to be a simulcast of the main "FOX9" KMSP feed that is on RF9 does not make that subchannel any less of a RF29 subchannel. The RF29 station WFTC has decided to allow "FOX9" to be simulcast on one of its subchannels, the subchannel that Tivo labels as WFTCDT2. In fact, it has even granted FOX9 top virtual billing as 9-1, even though WFTC itself is a MyTV affiliate, not a FOX affiliate.

It seems to me that TiVo has a one-RF-allocation-per-station mindset in its channel labeling, and the two stations, KMSP and WFTC, are the ones who have made a marketing decision to downplay the RF29 number that WFTC was allocated and instead to have TV sets show everything as being 9-something. (Perhaps the 9-9 designation is supposed to provide extra emphasis that that is "Fox9" on its true home, RF9, as opposed to the 9-1 simulcast on RF29) I suspect that for many OTA viewers, everything will show up just fine on the TV set and they won't even know which RF it is coming from. But people with DVR's may have some figuring things out to do.
primetimeguy's Avatar primetimeguy 07:02 PM 06-27-2014
My hoppers from dish are a mess right now with this OTA channel. Wrong channel logos, missing guide data, wring guide data. Impossible to record anything at the moment.
worachj's Avatar worachj 07:20 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post
Hey, how does "multiquote" work in this forum? Is there an explanation somewhere?
I can't get multiquote to work either and I use Internet Explorer 11.

Thanks for the information. TiVo's naming convention is terrible. They've always use the station call letters and then just added the sub channel number to make it a unique entry, not very descriptive or helpful in figuring out the channel broadcasts. Even less helpful when the guide data shows 9.1 as WFTCDT2 because its on frequency 29 when its actually KMSP. The simulcast and TiVo's naming convention is making a mess of things.
veedon's Avatar veedon 07:48 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by worachj View Post
I can't get multiquote to work either and I use Internet Explorer 11.

Thanks for the information. TiVo's naming convention is terrible. They've always use the station call letters and then just added the sub channel number to make it a unique entry, not very descriptive or helpful in figuring out the channel broadcasts. Even less helpful when the guide data shows 9.1 as WFTCDT2 because its on frequency 29 when its actually KMSP. The simulcast and TiVo's naming convention is making a mess of things.

Well, I wonder how TiVo would handle this station.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...n=wbkb#station

WBKB is in a very small market in Michigan. My guess is that it would say that that WBKBDT1 is CBS, WBKBDT2 is FOX, and WBKBDT3 is ABC. WBKB is the station name. The station is a CBS affiliate, and CBS is in HD on the main subchannel, but the station is also an affiliate of FOX and ABC. That's a case where a small market that otherwise might have been without OTA coverage for FOX and ABC now has that coverage, albeit only in SD.
worachj's Avatar worachj 09:25 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post
Well, I wonder how TiVo would handle this station.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...n=wbkb#station

WBKB is in a very small market in Michigan. My guess is that it would say that that WBKBDT1 is CBS, WBKBDT2 is FOX, and WBKBDT3 is ABC. WBKB is the station name. The station is a CBS affiliate, and CBS is in HD on the main subchannel, but the station is also an affiliate of FOX and ABC. That's a case where a small market that otherwise might have been without OTA coverage for FOX and ABC now has that coverage, albeit only in SD.
Maybe TiVo is not the one to blame, because TiVo gets its guide data from the Tribune. The Tribune may be the one to blame for the scheme.

Alpena MI does indeed use WBKBDT, WBKBDT2, and WBKBDT3 as its channel call letters. Zap2it.com will show the Tribune listing that mirrors the guide data that TiVo uses. Use the zip code of 49707 for Alpena Mi.

http://www.zap2it.com/tvlistings/loc...d=USA-OTA49707

Anyway its a bad naming scheme.
agus0103's Avatar agus0103 09:57 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post
The RF29 station WFTC has decided to allow "FOX9" to be simulcast on one of its subchannels, the subchannel that Tivo labels as WFTCDT2. In fact, it has even granted FOX9 top virtual billing as 9-1, even though WFTC itself is a MyTV affiliate, not a FOX affiliate.
I doubt there was a need to "allow" for anything since KMSP and WFTC are both owned by Fox Television Stations and operate out of the same building and transmit from the same tower. Also, since they are owned by Fox Television Stations, ultimately a division of 21st Century Fox, which also owns the Fox broadcast network as well as MyNetworkTV and a 50% interest in the Movies! subchannel, technically KMSP and WFTC are not affiliates, but O&Os (owned-and-operated stations).

I'm not usually the type for conspiracy theories, but this whole move of Fox in HD over to RF 29 seems partially like a setup for Fox to see if they could do without the RF 9 allocation, if, say, RF 9 were put up for auction and successfully sold to a wireless company next year when the FCC allows the broadcasters to auction their OTA spectrum. The only question in this case would be what to do with Bounce and the Mobile DTV stream, since both are now exclusive to RF 9, but, then again, the mobile stream could probably be turned off with very few even noticing and, as Trip said, Bounce may be leaving KMSP next year. I'm not entirely sure on that, though, because the Twin Cities does not have a Univision O&O, and, as far as I was aware, the agreement Bounce signed only affected the markets with a Univision O&O.

Who knows, with the spectrum auction next year and a future shrinking of the UHF TV band still leaving a lot of unanswered questions, this may just be the start of dual HD streams on a single channel in the Twin Cities. There are other possible station combinations and auctions out there I can envision, but everything would just be pure speculation at this point.

P.S. Trip, if you don't get any from someone else sooner, I should be able to get you TSReader exports of KMSP and WFTC next month.
veedon's Avatar veedon 10:22 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by agus0103 View Post
I doubt there was a need to "allow" for anything since KMSP and WFTC are both owned by Fox Television Stations and operate out of the same building and transmit from the same tower. Also, since they are owned by Fox Television Stations, ultimately a division of 21st Century Fox, which also owns the Fox broadcast network as well as MyNetworkTV and a 50% interest in the Movies! subchannel, technically KMSP and WFTC are not affiliates, but O&Os (owned-and-operated stations).

I'm not usually the type for conspiracy theories, but this whole move of Fox in HD over to RF 29 seems partially like a setup for Fox to see if they could do without the RF 9 allocation, if, say, RF 9 were put up for auction and successfully sold to a wireless company next year when the FCC allows the broadcasters to auction their OTA spectrum.
Aren't UHF frequencies generally better for OTA reception within urban areas, while VHF is better for reaching more distant, rural areas? Doesn't KMSP have some UHF translators outside of the metropolitan area that allow the programming on its RF9 signal to reach further afield by sending it via UHF? How do translators work? Do they have to be within receiving distance of the originating station, i.e. do they act as relays of a sort?

How useful are VHF frequencies for wireless companies?
agus0103's Avatar agus0103 11:55 PM 06-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post
Aren't UHF frequencies generally better for OTA reception within urban areas, while VHF is better for reaching more distant, rural areas? Doesn't KMSP have some UHF translators outside of the metropolitan area that allow the programming on its RF9 signal to reach further afield by sending it via UHF? How do translators work? Do they have to be within receiving distance of the originating station, i.e. do they act as relays of a sort?

How useful are VHF frequencies for wireless companies?
Yes, the wireless companies are going to prefer UHF spectrum over VHF spectrum, but we really don't know at this point how much interest there is going to be in the auction overall. There may be some interest in VHF spectrum in a metropolitan area as populous as the Twin Cities.

Translators can be fed in several ways: by receiving the originating station (or another translator thereof) OTA as you described, a terrestrial microwave link, a fiber link, or a satellite downlink. In KMSP's case, there are five KMSP translators in Minnesota directly owned by Fox Television Stations (i.e. KMSP itself) and seven (I think seven) owned by third-parties, not to mention a few more third-party WFTC translators scattered about.

The translators owned directly by KMSP are all still broadcasting in analog, and are actually fed using DirecTV (see post #2017). In about a year's time, they will either need to be converted to digital or leave the air. The third-party translators are all in digital, and in every case but one, they relay the full transport stream of the originating station. To the average viewer, this makes them virtually indistinguishable from the main KMSP signal. Now, how these digital translators are fed the KMSP transport stream is a good question. I don't believe any of them are close enough to be able to pick up KMSP OTA and relay the station that way. However, some are close enough to another digital KMSP translator to be able to pick up a translator OTA and then relay the signal in a daisy chain fashion.
Trip in VA's Avatar Trip in VA 04:04 AM 06-28-2014
As someone who works on the auction in question for the FCC, unless there is a lot of demand for stations to move from UHF to VHF, no VHF stations are being bought in the auction. And even then, it's probably only in major markets in cluttered areas. Minneapolis is so geographically isolated, relatively speaking, that I rather doubt that many or any of its full-power stations will get bought unless the auction is "successful" beyond the wireless companies' wildest hopes and dreams.

Agus0103, thanks in advance for the data. Don't go out of your way, but I do appreciate it.

- Trip
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