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post #2281 of 2310 Old 08-04-2014, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
OK I guess that makes sense. I looked at your tech data/screen caps and I see you have unknown for bitrate, is that just because no one has reported it to you yet?
That is correct.

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Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
I guess that would help tell the story where the bottle neck is. I don't have TSReader but I can fire up my iView tonight and get a rough idea of the realtime bitrate, that or compare the file size of a UNI program on my Tivo to another local SD channel.
http://www.lyngsat.com/SES-2.html

You can see WUMN listed as being on SES-2 (4149H) there. I don't know if that channel lineup has changed since February. A TSReader view of that satellite transponder would tell if that's the bottleneck.

Of course, if the local bandwidth is low, that could be it too, but if the satellite bandwidth is low, the local bandwidth could also be low just because you don't gain anything by increasing it after it's been compressed that low to start with.

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Just curious, with ATSC is there a maximum bitrate for a SD channel, or put another way whats the maximum you've seen in practice?
MPEG-2 can do SD as close to uncompressed as it gets at 15 Mbps.

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post #2282 of 2310 Old 08-04-2014, 02:06 PM
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My iView shows 17.1 WUMN-LD as a little less than 350KB/S bitrate.
For comparison 23.2's get TV shows ~325 KB/S and looks better than WUMN.
25.1's K25IA-D comes in ~300KB/S and generally has quite poor source material.
41.2's Qubo(ION) shows ~225KB/S and shows macroblocking
2.2's MN channel shows ~515KB/S and looks decent
5.3's MeTV shows ~500KB/S and looks decent

So to me those numbers show WUMN is using no where near the bandwidth they could but their fair picture quality is probably more related to the source than fairly low bitrate.
Trip, again whats one of the better bitrates you've seen for a SD channel? I can't believe anyone is doing 15Mbps, but I could be wrong. My market seems to be ~500KB/S(1/2 Mbps?) for most commercial SD channels.

edit: comparing my iView numbers to your TSReader numbers I see mine look quite a bit lower......although my iView reports the "record bitrate" numbers as KB/S while you and most other people use Mbps.....

Last edited by jjeff; 08-04-2014 at 02:22 PM.
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post #2283 of 2310 Old 08-04-2014, 08:07 PM
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On my TVs it shows up as 17.2. Also, most annoyingly, it's a 4:3 picture stretched to fit a 16:9 screen. The TV station is formatting it as 16:9. Picture quality is ok but I won't watch stretched 4:3 programming. If I want to see wide and fat I can look in the mirror.
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post #2284 of 2310 Old 08-04-2014, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
I can't believe anyone is doing 15Mbps, but I could be wrong. My market seems to be ~500KB/S(1/2 Mbps?) for most commercial SD channels.
500 kilobytes/second is 3.9 megabits/second (if "kilo" means 1024 and not 1000). Here is an easy-to-use conversion website.

Anyway, in the Twin Cities, very high bit rate SD subchannels include HSN2 on channel 43 at 15 Mbps and Cornerstone on channel 48 at 14.4 Mbps. The Walk TV on channel 50 used to be at 14.5 Mbps before the Hmong subchannels were added.

Of course subchannel bit rate alone can't indicate how good the picture quality is since you still have to factor in how the broadcaster is obtaining the content being broadcast and the bit rate/quality of that material.
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post #2285 of 2310 Old 08-05-2014, 06:01 AM
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Thanks agus, I checked several channels but none of the ones you mentioned that had high bitrate. We can get HSN2 at 15Mbps but decent channels like MeTV and This have less than 1/4th that of course I know HSN2 is a LPS but it's still a waste of bandwidth IMO.
Also thanks for your chart, using it my iView numbers look closer to Trip's TSReader numbers, way closer to what I had figured where a 500 Kilos was 1/2 a Mega.

I watched a bit more UNI last night and I really feel the bottle neck is the source and not relatively low broadcast bitrate. Static pictures were actually quite good but as soon as motion started, things went to hell and can only be best described as atrocious(on a 52" screen). Now maybe on a 19" CRT or even small LCD it may look acceptable but NOT on a large screen HDTV
I've never even analyzed the picture quality of HSN2 but will tonight, I know it has a picture but after than I'm on to another channel
Truthfully though from what I've seen in the past from those shopping kind of channels, they would be the perfect ones to have a low bitrate high resolution picture. No strobes or fast motion or even fast scene cuts, generally static images with very few cuts, again what a waste of good bandwidth....
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post #2286 of 2310 Old 08-05-2014, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agus0103 View Post
500 kilobytes/second is 3.9 megabits/second (if "kilo" means 1024 and not 1000). Here is an easy-to-use conversion website.

Anyway, in the Twin Cities, very high bit rate SD subchannels include HSN2 on channel 43 at 15 Mbps and Cornerstone on channel 48 at 14.4 Mbps. The Walk TV on channel 50 used to be at 14.5 Mbps before the Hmong subchannels were added.

Of course subchannel bit rate alone can't indicate how good the picture quality is since you still have to factor in how the broadcaster is obtaining the content being broadcast and the bit rate/quality of that material.
According to my iView HSN2(ch43.1) clocked in at 1.85MB/S which according to your chart is 14.8 Mbps and is very close to the 15 Mbps you stated and Trip has on his site. I don't get 48.1 in Bville and KTCJ(50.1) breaks up so badly as to not get a good reading.
Odd thing is while HSN2 has excellent bitrate the picture quality is fair at best, no macroblocking but I'd say more 1/2 D1 than full D1 resolution....doesn't really make sense why the resolution isn't even as good as a good DVD.
So using your chart and my 350KB/S reading for 17.1(UNI) I can safely assume it's running ~2.73 Mbps which while low doesn't explain the severe macroblocking, the blockage must be somewhere upstream.

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post #2287 of 2310 Old 08-05-2014, 06:52 PM
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My friend in Minneapolis sent me TSReader data on WUMN-LD today. A few notes:

It is correctly mapping to 17-1 now, if it wasn't earlier, so anyone seeing it as 17-2 still should rescan and it should now show up as 17-1. (I think it should map to 13-1, personally, but whatever.)

The bitrate in the capture I have is 2.71 Mbps, so I'm guessing that's a constant bitrate. If I had to guess, I would guess that the bitrate over the satellite is lower than that, or it is exactly that but the encoder is very old and can't handle the low bitrate well.

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post #2288 of 2310 Old 08-05-2014, 07:19 PM
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Thats fine that it maps to 17-1 as every now and then during the humid conditions I could get WEAU in Eau Claire which also maps to 13-1
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post #2289 of 2310 Old 08-05-2014, 08:41 PM
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Here's a fun one:

5.2 (UHF 45, I think) stopped working this spring: unwatchable, would not lock signal.
I assumed it was multipath with the leaves coming out and just figured I'd wait it out until winter.
Checked it tonight and, boom, rock solid @ SNR 20db. Watched an hour with no visible artifacts.
Did something with the UHF 45 transmitter change recently?

Can't figure out why the problem fixed itself... : D
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post #2290 of 2310 Old 08-06-2014, 04:33 AM
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Give it a longer test than an hour, say a week or two over several kinds of weather conditions.

20 dB SNR doesn't give you much fade margin, it's only about 4-5 dB above the edge of the digital cliff.
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post #2291 of 2310 Old 08-09-2014, 12:15 PM
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tivo emailed me back saying "24 to 48 hours" to fix the WUMN thing

noticed it updated with 62-2 (RF31) with HmongTV in 4 hour blocks. They moved it from RF50. I know earlier in the week 50-2 & 50-4 had color bars but now cant lock the signal
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post #2292 of 2310 Old 08-10-2014, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
tivo emailed me back saying "24 to 48 hours" to fix the WUMN thing

noticed it updated with 62-2 (RF31) with HmongTV in 4 hour blocks. They moved it from RF50. I know earlier in the week 50-2 & 50-4 had color bars but now cant lock the signal
Yes I also got the 62-2 update message, too bad they won't get WUMN in time for the DWTS finale tonight, I'd have liked to setup a Season Pass which can't really be done unless it's in the guide and if it's truly the finale tonight that won't be possible
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post #2293 of 2310 Old 08-15-2014, 03:17 PM
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Lately I've been frustrated with the local news on channel 4. They have too many features, going the lake etc. and not enough news content. I've been watching more of channel 5 for news but the picture quality pales in comparison to 4, 9 or 11. 4 and 11 have great picture quality even on local news programs and 9 is very good also. It is just me or does channel 5.1 and 5.2 have a noticeably inferior picture on local programming compared to the other channels? Jagged edges are very common on 5.2 as well. Channel 23 also looks great on all programming including local programming. 5.2 is pretty mediocre all the time, even when running programs like King of Queers, which was a CBS network HD program and looked great on CBS.


Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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post #2294 of 2310 Old 08-15-2014, 04:21 PM
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Agree with all you said
While I agree 4.1 is the best PQ of the local news I just don't care for it. I used to watch KARE which as you said is a close second in PQ compared to WCCO but they just have too much fluff pieces. KSTP while probably the best news really bothers me PQ wise, it's terrible! so I don't care to watch it. That leaves FOX which has decent picture quality and minimal fluff pieces. They do have the occasional puppy in the drain network piece that drives me crazy, I mean maybe if I lived in Florida or where ever the incident happened but NOT two thousand miles away
WB23 doesn't have local news but I agree, their picture quality is top notch which makes watching the occasional tween/teen programming even more bearable Like watching the old PBS HD channel, even if I wasn't that into what they had on it looked so damn good I had to watch....
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post #2295 of 2310 Old 08-15-2014, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runch Machine View Post
Lately I've been frustrated with the local news on channel 4. They have too many features, going the lake etc. and not enough news content. I've been watching more of channel 5 for news but the picture quality pales in comparison to 4, 9 or 11. 4 and 11 have great picture quality even on local news programs and 9 is very good also. It is just me or does channel 5.1 and 5.2 have a noticeably inferior picture on local programming compared to the other channels? Jagged edges are very common on 5.2 as well. Channel 23 also looks great on all programming including local programming. 5.2 is pretty mediocre all the time, even when running programs like King of Queers, which was a CBS network HD program and looked great on CBS.


Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Since I get most of my news via the web I can't comment on content. But 4 and 11 have by far the best PQ. And at this point I'd have to give the nod to 11 as they tend to have less high frequency noise in the picture. Channel 5 I refuse to watch because the PQ is that bad, local and network programming. They should be embarrassed.
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post #2296 of 2310 Old 08-17-2014, 05:22 PM
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Anyone else tune into the Car/KC preseason NFL game. The PQ is atrocious. Wondering if it is the feed or all the muxing/subchannel changes that went on recently.....to which my Dish guide is still hosed up.
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post #2297 of 2310 Old 08-17-2014, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Anyone else tune into the Car/KC preseason NFL game. The PQ is atrocious. Wondering if it is the feed or all the muxing/subchannel changes that went on recently.....to which my Dish guide is still hosed up.
which version
9-1 or 9-9?

9-1 has 2 HD channels + a SD channel whereas 9-9 is a HD and a SD
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post #2298 of 2310 Old 08-17-2014, 06:48 PM
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which version
9-1 or 9-9?

9-1 has 2 HD channels + a SD channel whereas 9-9 is a HD and a SD
They both are terrible.
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post #2299 of 2310 Old 08-23-2014, 07:35 PM
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I'm finding myself a bit overwhelmed and hoping for some guidance. I got rid of my cable today after Comcast upped my bill by $44 a month and so my Roku, BR Player's apps and an old Boxee Box are now my "TV". I don't watch TV a lot, but would like to occasionally be able to get a few local channels. I've spent a little time this evening on AntennaWeb, TV Fool & RabbitEars but admit a lot of what I'm seeing is foreign to me. My zip is 55428 so I'm wondering if, at least for now, I can get away with some type of small indoor antenna (something I can set near the TV)?

Here's what AntennaWeb says...
Quote:
K16HY-D 16.1 EWTN
RF Channel: 16
7 miles at 143°
Yellow

K43HB-D 43.1 HSN
RF Channel: 43
7 miles at 143°
Yellow

KARE-DT 11.1 NBC
RF Channel: 11
11 miles at 89°
Yellow

KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX
RF Channel: 9
12 miles at 91°
Yellow

KPXM-DT 41.1 ION
RF Channel: 40
11 miles at 89°
Yellow

KSTC-DT 5.2 IND
RF Channel: 45
11 miles at 89°
Yellow

KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC
RF Channel: 35
11 miles at 89°
Yellow

KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS
RF Channel: 34
12 miles at 91°
Yellow

KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS
RF Channel: 23
12 miles at 91°
Yellow

WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS
RF Channel: 32
11 miles at 89°
Yellow

WDMI-LD 62.1 DAY
RF Channel: 31
9 miles at 87°
Yellow

WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT
RF Channel: 29
12 miles at 91°
Yellow

WUCW-DT 23.1 CW
RF Channel: 22
11 miles at 89°
Yellow

KHVM-LD 48.1 IND
RF Channel: 48
9 miles at 87°
Green

KTCJ-LD 50.1 CTV
RF Channel: 50
9 miles at 87°
Green

WUMN-LP 13 UNI
RF Channel: 13
8 miles at 143°
Light
Green
I'm sure a rooftop antenna is best, and I'll get one and try to install it if necessary but I was wondering if it would be. I'm just not overly confident in my skills at running the cable for one.


Thanks in advance.

~Brian

Last edited by AnemicOak; 08-23-2014 at 07:54 PM.
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post #2300 of 2310 Old 08-23-2014, 09:26 PM
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Minneapolis, MN - OTA

As you pointed out, Brooklyn Park is not that far from the Shoreview towers. You might want to consider as small outdoor antenna, but put it somewhere inside the residence. Try different locations to see what works. The problem will be multi path distortion. What ever you do, don't use an amplifier. In fact, if anything, consider an attenuator, if necessary. Also, use only good quality feedline like RG-6, or better. A Channel Master CM-4220HD might work well for you.
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post #2301 of 2310 Old 08-23-2014, 10:14 PM
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As you pointed out, Brooklyn Park is not that far from the Shoreview towers. You might want to consider as small outdoor antenna, but put it somewhere inside the residence. Try different locations to see what works. The problem will be multi path distortion. What ever you do, don't use an amplifier. In fact, if anything, consider an attenuator, if necessary. Also, use only good quality feedline like RG-6, or better. A Channel Master CM-4220HD might work well for you.
I have an apartment in Brooklyn Park (as well as a Fargo apartment - so I like to monitor both threads). My apartment in Brooklyn Park is on the wrong side of the building from the Shoreview towers. The window faces West -- with my apartment, the hallway, and another apartment across the hall between me and Shoreview. I can tell you that I had a Winegard FreeVision antenna sitting on a stool behind my TV in the NW corner of the living room in a very unprofessional mounting scheme of tying it to a magazine rack. :-) It's behind the TV so nobody can see it. The bedroom simply has a leaf antenna literally laying on the floor between the bed and the wall.

I have no problems getting the local channels. As you would expect from these UHF antennas - both VHF 9 and VHF 11 have the lowest single strength, but both are certainly stable and watchable. As would also be expected - because I am facing West, Ion from Saint Cloud comes in the strongest of all stations. There is hardly any location I can put either antenna where it does not come in well.

You will certainly have to do some trial and error in placing an indoor antenna. Because I'm on the wrong side of the towers - multipath did mean that I had to try a few positions to get everything to come in. One position brought in everything reliably except for 11, for example. Tweaking to get 11 meant I lost 23, etc. But eventually - the right position was found where the stations all come in just fine in Brooklyn Park with the indoor antenna.
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post #2302 of 2310 Old 08-23-2014, 10:46 PM
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Thanks for the info you guys. I'm actually in Crystal, but that doesn't matter. One thing I'm wondering if it matters at all is that I'm very close to the airport with small planes and an occasional helicopter flying near and sometimes over my house at fairly low levels. Can/will that have any effect on TV signals?

~Brian
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post #2303 of 2310 Old 08-24-2014, 07:11 AM
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Minneapolis, MN - OTA

One thing that might be worth looking into is an antenna that allows you to point it in two different directions. I don't have one of these, so I can't recommend it, but I would encourage you to research it.

I did try a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna years ago. It seemed to work pretty well. Philips might still have their version available somewhere. I have even seen a variant of that with additional VHF rabbit ears. http://www.p4c.philips.com/cgi-bin/d...&scy=US&slg=en


ttp://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HDB8X&d=Solid-Signal-Xtreme-Signal-HDB8X-8-Bay-VHFUHF-HDTV-Antenna-%28HDB8X%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=700112818417
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post #2304 of 2310 Old 08-24-2014, 11:08 AM
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Regarding aircraft -- yes, aircraft can potentially impact OTA reception. Whether it actually will depends on so many factors that I doubt anybody could predict. The overall strength of your signal - perpendicular axis of the aircraft - multipath inside the house, etc. There really is no solid prediction anybody can make.

Regarding the variant of the Silver Sensor with VHF poles - I actually have one that I used to use. It's the Terk HDTVi - a non-amplified antenna.

I ended up not using it because of two problems. First - it is highly directional. I found it difficult to find a location where everything came in reliably. It did give the strongest signal of any antenna due to its highly directional nature - but only in very narrow placement options. Finding a single location indoors where all stations I wanted came in reliably proved to be such a frustrating experience that I gave up in the attempt. I was able to achieve much better results indoors with the FreeVision and Leaf, as mentioned above.
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post #2305 of 2310 Old 08-24-2014, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnemicOak View Post
Thanks for the info you guys. I'm actually in Crystal, but that doesn't matter. One thing I'm wondering if it matters at all is that I'm very close to the airport with small planes and an occasional helicopter flying near and sometimes over my house at fairly low levels. Can/will that have any effect on TV signals?
Brian,

Don't fret and over think this. Remember it wasn't all that long ago that EVERYONE only had OTA reception and did fine. Just get a longish run of RG6 cable and a basic indoor antenna and experiment a little with indoor antenna set ups. If that doesn't work, keep trying with other set ups in the attic or exterior. Once you find what works, THEN figure out how to run the RG6 cable so you don't see it. I

If, like me, you don't watch a ton of TV, and are not addicted to certain shows on cable channels, you'll be fine. I have never paid for TV and don't see the reason to start now. Only time I think about it is with certain sporting events, but then I just head to a sports bar. WAY cheaper than cable!

Good luck!

The Un-Theater Un-Build
_________________________________
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post #2306 of 2310 Old 08-26-2014, 07:19 AM
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What side of the building are your windows on and what floor are you on? My daughter lives in St Louis Park on the second floor and a Terk HDTVi worked well for her. As the person above said, it's a little tricky to position but it gives a stronger signal than many antennas. With digital you don't need a lot of signal strength. You either have enough signal and the picture is perfect, or you don't and you get nothing, or pixilation if you are on the edge of the minimum needed.


Note, don't get the Terk HDTVa, it has a built in amp and you don't want that.
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post #2307 of 2310 Old 08-27-2014, 01:49 PM
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Anyone still have issues with the channel 9 subchannel reshuffling? Or is is just a Dishnetwork problem at this point? 9-1 and 9-2 have the guide data reversed.
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post #2308 of 2310 Old 08-28-2014, 07:12 PM
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Wanted to thank everyone for their help/advice. Hanesian is right in that I was way over thinking things.

I had planned to go shopping this weekend, but was at Target today and remembered there was a Vikes pre-season game tonight so I thought I'd see what they had that might work. They don't really carry much, but since they have a generous return policy I figured it wouldn't hurt to try something. I ended up with what's basically glorified modern rabbit ears, but it turns out it works really well. My TV picked up 40 channels when I did a scan. A few, like Ion (& some home shopping junk), were pretty pixelated, but simply rotating the antenna 90 degrees made it come in great. So there might be a little messing around if I decide I want a specific channel, but most of them come in fine as is. I was just hoping to get channel 11 for tonight's game and figured I'd probably be returning this for something better, but it turns out this is good enough for now although I'll probably look into something more (probably eventually outdoors) eventually.

This is what I bought...
http://www.target.com/p/ge-slim-flat...lot=medium_1_4

~Brian
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post #2309 of 2310 Old Yesterday, 05:58 PM
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Glad to hear it, Brian. If it works, it works.

if you care about the programming on Ion you should be able to get it, too, with a little experimentation. But don't chase rainbows - if you get pretty much all the OTA stuff you care about, just enjoy! And use some of the money you saved to occasionally got to a sports bar or otherwise pay for content you want. You'll still be way ahead $ wise!

The Un-Theater Un-Build
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post #2310 of 2310 Old Yesterday, 09:11 PM
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Two antennas meet on a roof
They fall in love and get married
The wedding wasn't much
But the reception was terrific!
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