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post #2281 of 2298 Old 08-04-2014, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
OK I guess that makes sense. I looked at your tech data/screen caps and I see you have unknown for bitrate, is that just because no one has reported it to you yet?
That is correct.

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Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
I guess that would help tell the story where the bottle neck is. I don't have TSReader but I can fire up my iView tonight and get a rough idea of the realtime bitrate, that or compare the file size of a UNI program on my Tivo to another local SD channel.
http://www.lyngsat.com/SES-2.html

You can see WUMN listed as being on SES-2 (4149H) there. I don't know if that channel lineup has changed since February. A TSReader view of that satellite transponder would tell if that's the bottleneck.

Of course, if the local bandwidth is low, that could be it too, but if the satellite bandwidth is low, the local bandwidth could also be low just because you don't gain anything by increasing it after it's been compressed that low to start with.

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Just curious, with ATSC is there a maximum bitrate for a SD channel, or put another way whats the maximum you've seen in practice?
MPEG-2 can do SD as close to uncompressed as it gets at 15 Mbps.

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post #2282 of 2298 Old 08-04-2014, 02:06 PM
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My iView shows 17.1 WUMN-LD as a little less than 350KB/S bitrate.
For comparison 23.2's get TV shows ~325 KB/S and looks better than WUMN.
25.1's K25IA-D comes in ~300KB/S and generally has quite poor source material.
41.2's Qubo(ION) shows ~225KB/S and shows macroblocking
2.2's MN channel shows ~515KB/S and looks decent
5.3's MeTV shows ~500KB/S and looks decent

So to me those numbers show WUMN is using no where near the bandwidth they could but their fair picture quality is probably more related to the source than fairly low bitrate.
Trip, again whats one of the better bitrates you've seen for a SD channel? I can't believe anyone is doing 15Mbps, but I could be wrong. My market seems to be ~500KB/S(1/2 Mbps?) for most commercial SD channels.

edit: comparing my iView numbers to your TSReader numbers I see mine look quite a bit lower......although my iView reports the "record bitrate" numbers as KB/S while you and most other people use Mbps.....

Last edited by jjeff; 08-04-2014 at 02:22 PM.
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post #2283 of 2298 Old 08-04-2014, 08:07 PM
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On my TVs it shows up as 17.2. Also, most annoyingly, it's a 4:3 picture stretched to fit a 16:9 screen. The TV station is formatting it as 16:9. Picture quality is ok but I won't watch stretched 4:3 programming. If I want to see wide and fat I can look in the mirror.
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post #2284 of 2298 Old 08-04-2014, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
I can't believe anyone is doing 15Mbps, but I could be wrong. My market seems to be ~500KB/S(1/2 Mbps?) for most commercial SD channels.
500 kilobytes/second is 3.9 megabits/second (if "kilo" means 1024 and not 1000). Here is an easy-to-use conversion website.

Anyway, in the Twin Cities, very high bit rate SD subchannels include HSN2 on channel 43 at 15 Mbps and Cornerstone on channel 48 at 14.4 Mbps. The Walk TV on channel 50 used to be at 14.5 Mbps before the Hmong subchannels were added.

Of course subchannel bit rate alone can't indicate how good the picture quality is since you still have to factor in how the broadcaster is obtaining the content being broadcast and the bit rate/quality of that material.
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post #2285 of 2298 Old 08-05-2014, 06:01 AM
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Thanks agus, I checked several channels but none of the ones you mentioned that had high bitrate. We can get HSN2 at 15Mbps but decent channels like MeTV and This have less than 1/4th that of course I know HSN2 is a LPS but it's still a waste of bandwidth IMO.
Also thanks for your chart, using it my iView numbers look closer to Trip's TSReader numbers, way closer to what I had figured where a 500 Kilos was 1/2 a Mega.

I watched a bit more UNI last night and I really feel the bottle neck is the source and not relatively low broadcast bitrate. Static pictures were actually quite good but as soon as motion started, things went to hell and can only be best described as atrocious(on a 52" screen). Now maybe on a 19" CRT or even small LCD it may look acceptable but NOT on a large screen HDTV
I've never even analyzed the picture quality of HSN2 but will tonight, I know it has a picture but after than I'm on to another channel
Truthfully though from what I've seen in the past from those shopping kind of channels, they would be the perfect ones to have a low bitrate high resolution picture. No strobes or fast motion or even fast scene cuts, generally static images with very few cuts, again what a waste of good bandwidth....
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post #2286 of 2298 Old 08-05-2014, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agus0103 View Post
500 kilobytes/second is 3.9 megabits/second (if "kilo" means 1024 and not 1000). Here is an easy-to-use conversion website.

Anyway, in the Twin Cities, very high bit rate SD subchannels include HSN2 on channel 43 at 15 Mbps and Cornerstone on channel 48 at 14.4 Mbps. The Walk TV on channel 50 used to be at 14.5 Mbps before the Hmong subchannels were added.

Of course subchannel bit rate alone can't indicate how good the picture quality is since you still have to factor in how the broadcaster is obtaining the content being broadcast and the bit rate/quality of that material.
According to my iView HSN2(ch43.1) clocked in at 1.85MB/S which according to your chart is 14.8 Mbps and is very close to the 15 Mbps you stated and Trip has on his site. I don't get 48.1 in Bville and KTCJ(50.1) breaks up so badly as to not get a good reading.
Odd thing is while HSN2 has excellent bitrate the picture quality is fair at best, no macroblocking but I'd say more 1/2 D1 than full D1 resolution....doesn't really make sense why the resolution isn't even as good as a good DVD.
So using your chart and my 350KB/S reading for 17.1(UNI) I can safely assume it's running ~2.73 Mbps which while low doesn't explain the severe macroblocking, the blockage must be somewhere upstream.

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post #2287 of 2298 Old 08-05-2014, 06:52 PM
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My friend in Minneapolis sent me TSReader data on WUMN-LD today. A few notes:

It is correctly mapping to 17-1 now, if it wasn't earlier, so anyone seeing it as 17-2 still should rescan and it should now show up as 17-1. (I think it should map to 13-1, personally, but whatever.)

The bitrate in the capture I have is 2.71 Mbps, so I'm guessing that's a constant bitrate. If I had to guess, I would guess that the bitrate over the satellite is lower than that, or it is exactly that but the encoder is very old and can't handle the low bitrate well.

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post #2288 of 2298 Old 08-05-2014, 07:19 PM
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Thats fine that it maps to 17-1 as every now and then during the humid conditions I could get WEAU in Eau Claire which also maps to 13-1
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post #2289 of 2298 Old 08-05-2014, 08:41 PM
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Here's a fun one:

5.2 (UHF 45, I think) stopped working this spring: unwatchable, would not lock signal.
I assumed it was multipath with the leaves coming out and just figured I'd wait it out until winter.
Checked it tonight and, boom, rock solid @ SNR 20db. Watched an hour with no visible artifacts.
Did something with the UHF 45 transmitter change recently?

Can't figure out why the problem fixed itself... : D
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post #2290 of 2298 Old 08-06-2014, 04:33 AM
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Give it a longer test than an hour, say a week or two over several kinds of weather conditions.

20 dB SNR doesn't give you much fade margin, it's only about 4-5 dB above the edge of the digital cliff.
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post #2291 of 2298 Old 08-09-2014, 12:15 PM
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tivo emailed me back saying "24 to 48 hours" to fix the WUMN thing

noticed it updated with 62-2 (RF31) with HmongTV in 4 hour blocks. They moved it from RF50. I know earlier in the week 50-2 & 50-4 had color bars but now cant lock the signal
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post #2292 of 2298 Old 08-10-2014, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
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tivo emailed me back saying "24 to 48 hours" to fix the WUMN thing

noticed it updated with 62-2 (RF31) with HmongTV in 4 hour blocks. They moved it from RF50. I know earlier in the week 50-2 & 50-4 had color bars but now cant lock the signal
Yes I also got the 62-2 update message, too bad they won't get WUMN in time for the DWTS finale tonight, I'd have liked to setup a Season Pass which can't really be done unless it's in the guide and if it's truly the finale tonight that won't be possible
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post #2293 of 2298 Old 08-15-2014, 03:17 PM
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Lately I've been frustrated with the local news on channel 4. They have too many features, going the lake etc. and not enough news content. I've been watching more of channel 5 for news but the picture quality pales in comparison to 4, 9 or 11. 4 and 11 have great picture quality even on local news programs and 9 is very good also. It is just me or does channel 5.1 and 5.2 have a noticeably inferior picture on local programming compared to the other channels? Jagged edges are very common on 5.2 as well. Channel 23 also looks great on all programming including local programming. 5.2 is pretty mediocre all the time, even when running programs like King of Queers, which was a CBS network HD program and looked great on CBS.


Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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post #2294 of 2298 Old 08-15-2014, 04:21 PM
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Agree with all you said
While I agree 4.1 is the best PQ of the local news I just don't care for it. I used to watch KARE which as you said is a close second in PQ compared to WCCO but they just have too much fluff pieces. KSTP while probably the best news really bothers me PQ wise, it's terrible! so I don't care to watch it. That leaves FOX which has decent picture quality and minimal fluff pieces. They do have the occasional puppy in the drain network piece that drives me crazy, I mean maybe if I lived in Florida or where ever the incident happened but NOT two thousand miles away
WB23 doesn't have local news but I agree, their picture quality is top notch which makes watching the occasional tween/teen programming even more bearable Like watching the old PBS HD channel, even if I wasn't that into what they had on it looked so damn good I had to watch....
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post #2295 of 2298 Old 08-15-2014, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runch Machine View Post
Lately I've been frustrated with the local news on channel 4. They have too many features, going the lake etc. and not enough news content. I've been watching more of channel 5 for news but the picture quality pales in comparison to 4, 9 or 11. 4 and 11 have great picture quality even on local news programs and 9 is very good also. It is just me or does channel 5.1 and 5.2 have a noticeably inferior picture on local programming compared to the other channels? Jagged edges are very common on 5.2 as well. Channel 23 also looks great on all programming including local programming. 5.2 is pretty mediocre all the time, even when running programs like King of Queers, which was a CBS network HD program and looked great on CBS.


Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Since I get most of my news via the web I can't comment on content. But 4 and 11 have by far the best PQ. And at this point I'd have to give the nod to 11 as they tend to have less high frequency noise in the picture. Channel 5 I refuse to watch because the PQ is that bad, local and network programming. They should be embarrassed.
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post #2296 of 2298 Old 08-17-2014, 05:22 PM
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Anyone else tune into the Car/KC preseason NFL game. The PQ is atrocious. Wondering if it is the feed or all the muxing/subchannel changes that went on recently.....to which my Dish guide is still hosed up.
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post #2297 of 2298 Old 08-17-2014, 06:46 PM
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Anyone else tune into the Car/KC preseason NFL game. The PQ is atrocious. Wondering if it is the feed or all the muxing/subchannel changes that went on recently.....to which my Dish guide is still hosed up.
which version
9-1 or 9-9?

9-1 has 2 HD channels + a SD channel whereas 9-9 is a HD and a SD
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post #2298 of 2298 Old 08-17-2014, 06:48 PM
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which version
9-1 or 9-9?

9-1 has 2 HD channels + a SD channel whereas 9-9 is a HD and a SD
They both are terrible.
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