Minneapolis, MN - OTA - Page 79 - AVS Forum
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post #2341 of 2354 Old 10-23-2014, 03:33 PM
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I'm curious if Comcast may actually have a better HD version of KSTP, maybe they get their signal from fiber
yes they get their feeds via fibre
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post #2342 of 2354 Old 10-23-2014, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
yes they get their feeds via fibre
But I thought I read somewhere(not sure if it was our market) that some stations feed the fiber the same signal as would go to the transmitter. If this was the case cable would suffer the same as OTA.
I don't have cable but if someone did and also had OTA it would be interesting to compare the filesize(or bitrate if you could read it realtime) for say a 1hr ABC HD program. I know OTA a 1hr KSTP HD program is less than a standard DVD, under 4gb, which is way too small for decent HD. Compare this to WCCO where a 1hr HD program is over 6gbs.
Whoa, just checked WFTC(Fox9.1) and they are even worse than KSTP, coming in at a paltry 3.6 gb for a 1hr program! I don't watch much on FOX and what I do isn't probably too demanding but I've never seen the issues on FOX9.1 as I do on KSTP. Wonder if FOX has a better or newer encoder....
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post #2343 of 2354 Old 10-23-2014, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
But I thought I read somewhere(not sure if it was our market) that some stations feed the fiber the same signal as would go to the transmitter. If this was the case cable would suffer the same as OTA.
I don't have cable but if someone did and also had OTA it would be interesting to compare the filesize(or bitrate if you could read it realtime) for say a 1hr ABC HD program. I know OTA a 1hr KSTP HD program is less than a standard DVD, under 4gb, which is way too small for decent HD. Compare this to WCCO where a 1hr HD program is over 6gbs.
Whoa, just checked WFTC(Fox9.1) and they are even worse than KSTP, coming in at a paltry 3.6 gb for a 1hr program! I don't watch much on FOX and what I do isn't probably too demanding but I've never seen the issues on FOX9.1 as I do on KSTP. Wonder if FOX has a better or newer encoder....
I'm with you, I think no matter how they receive it (fiber vs OTA) I think the odds of having a different feed are slim. Would be nice for someone to compare.

As for FOX, yep, the pretty much suck too for PQ. Locally here I would put NBC at the top, say 9/10. CBS gets an 8 FOX a 5.5 and ABC a 3. KSTP is the worst excuse for an HD channel I have seen anywhere. And our FOX NFL broadcasts are terrible too. Other than NFL on FOX it's a good thing I don't watch either channel.
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post #2344 of 2354 Old 10-23-2014, 06:20 PM
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Are there even mobile DTV capable receivers on the market? I've never seen any. Seems like one of those pre-smart-phone-and-4G-LTE-everywhere ideas that sounded good at the time (like HD Radio on AM).
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post #2345 of 2354 Old 10-23-2014, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mattdp View Post
Are there even mobile DTV capable receivers on the market? I've never seen any. Seems like one of those pre-smart-phone-and-4G-LTE-everywhere ideas that sounded good at the time (like HD Radio on AM).
Very few, but they are out there. You really have to go looking to find them.

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I'm with you, I think no matter how they receive it (fiber vs OTA) I think the odds of having a different feed are slim. Would be nice for someone to compare.
I remember someone here doing a comparison some months ago and it was clear that the fiber feed was much better since they weren't feeding the Mobile piece of the transport stream to the cable company.

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post #2346 of 2354 Old 10-24-2014, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
I remember someone here doing a comparison some months ago and it was clear that the fiber feed was much better since they weren't feeding the Mobile piece of the transport stream to the cable company.

- Trip
That might explain why more people aren't complaining about KSTP's picture quality as most people probably watch it on cable or satellite(which may be the same feed as cable).
Kind of a switch from the early days of HDTV when OTA was generally considered better PQ than compressed satellite or cable.
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post #2347 of 2354 Old 10-24-2014, 07:45 AM
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It's still generally true that OTA is better than the fiber feed, or at least equivalent. I think KSTP just does a totally separate signal path for the fiber feed because of the huge amount of compression they're having to do to accommodate the Mobile DTV.

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post #2348 of 2354 Old 10-24-2014, 09:24 AM
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Whoa, just checked WFTC(Fox9.1) and they are even worse than KSTP, coming in at a paltry 3.6 gb for a 1hr program!
Rabitears says 3.3 so its close

Quote:
I don't watch much on FOX and what I do isn't probably too demanding but I've never seen the issues on FOX9.1 as I do on KSTP. Wonder if FOX has a better or newer encoder....
I mainly watch it via 9.9 which doesn't seem to have the issues as 9.1 does
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post #2349 of 2354 Old 10-24-2014, 02:53 PM
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I have Comcast and KSTP is definitely a better picture on cable than on the OTA signal.
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post #2350 of 2354 Old 10-24-2014, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by John21 View Post
I have Comcast and KSTP is definitely a better picture on cable than on the OTA signal.
Thanks for your observations, that might make sense then why more people aren't complaining.
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Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
...
I mainly watch it via 9.9 which doesn't seem to have the issues as 9.1 does
When they first added 9.9 I made a couple test recordings and both channels were identical in size for a 1hr program, so I figured it was a wash. I think people speculated that even though 9.9 could have more bandwidth, FOX may have been sending the same bitrate program to both channels. I'll have to do more testing, problem is I watch such little FOX and what I do isn't really demanding material. Now if they aired things like live event shows, especially ones with lots of strobes, it would be easy to spot a bitstarved picture.
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post #2351 of 2354 Old 10-25-2014, 03:46 PM
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I've noticed that people comment on the picture quality of KSTP. They mention how the mobile channels are taking away a lot of bandwidth. What I am wondering is how much bandwidth the feed sent from ABC has? I ask this because I've noticed that the ABC Owned-and-Operated stations have two subchannels of the LiveWell network, one in HD one in SD, so in those markets the main ABC channel has about the same bandwidth as what KSTP's does.
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post #2352 of 2354 Old 10-26-2014, 03:58 PM
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per rabbitears.info

KSTP uses between 7.7-8.7Mbps for ABC
LiveWell uses 1.55-2.25
Mobile takes up 7.34

Now if we look at a ABC O&O
WABC NY uses a variable bitrate but they max out at 13.5
KABC LA uses up to 14.0
KGO San Fran is up to 12.5

In comparison to other Hubbard ABC's in the state
WDIO Duluth 13.3
KAAL Austin 12.5
KSAX Alexandria (satellite of KSTP) 11.45 (KSAX and KRWF Redwood Falls has ABC on -1, a SD feed of 45 on -2 and MeTv on -3)

Last edited by unclehonkey; 10-26-2014 at 04:02 PM.
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post #2353 of 2354 Old 10-26-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by edjones34 View Post
... I've noticed that the ABC Owned-and-Operated stations have two subchannels of the LiveWell network, one in HD one in SD, so in those markets the main ABC channel has about the same bandwidth as what KSTP's does.
And when the station has Livewell in HD, such as some other ABC markets, the picture quality is also quite poor. I've read posts from someone in the PHI market, where the ABC affiliate has Livewell in HD and they're always complaining about how easily the picture macroblocks with any motion, like KSTP(OTA anyway).
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post #2354 of 2354 Old 10-27-2014, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
And when the station has Livewell in HD, such as some other ABC markets, the picture quality is also quite poor. I've read posts from someone in the PHI market, where the ABC affiliate has Livewell in HD and they're always complaining about how easily the picture macroblocks with any motion, like KSTP(OTA anyway).
The bitrate is already so low that the picture is so soft and blurry it makes it harder to see the macroblocking.

This station is a joke.
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