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Local HDTV Info and Reception > Phoenix, AZ - HDTV
dapercy's Avatar dapercy 12:16 PM 08-23-2005
Surprised the installers weren't knowledgeable enough to know the antenna probably wouldn't work.

AFH's Avatar AFH 12:33 PM 08-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by dapercy View Post

Surprised the installers weren't knowledgeable enough to know the antenna probably wouldn't work.


Well, all they do is give you crap that they have. You're better off getting your own antenna. When I ordered my HD Tivo last week, Directv asked me if I wanted the antenna that attached to the dish. I told them no b/c you're much better off buying a 13 dollar antenna from Rat Shack that will work much better than what DTV gives you. I'm going to buy a second antenna so that I can leave my current one attached to the hd tuner in my tv set and the other for the HD Tivo.
Mac The Knife's Avatar Mac The Knife 02:34 PM 08-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by dapercy View Post

CBS and ABC not coming through in HD and I live 2.7 miles from the towers on top of South Mountain.

...

Yikes, that's close. I wonder if your getting some really bad multipath from being that close?
coyoteaz's Avatar coyoteaz 05:55 PM 08-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by dapercy View Post

CBS and ABC not coming through in HD and I live 2.7 miles from the towers on top of South Mountain.

I'm scratching my head. The Direct TV installer came out today and installed my dish and a antenna attached to the dish. NBC and Fox come in, but ABC breaks up and CBS doesn't come in at all. The thing I can't figure out is all 4 major networks broadcast from South Mountain and I'm close enough that I thought the channels would come in perfectly.

Is there anything I can do to improve reception or are there any antennas that are recommended?

I'd be more worried about too much signal than anything else at that distance. You have a good chance of overdriving the input with anything resembling a decent antenna.. CBS is broadcasting at a full MW (more than anyone else in Phoenix IIRC) so this would fit nicely with the "too much strength" theory. If you have a 2-way splitter around, you can hook that up to see if it helps attenuate the signal and give you more reliable reception. I wouldn't recommend it for the long-term, but it can be used to help determine if you really are getting too much signal.
TomCat's Avatar TomCat 07:07 PM 08-23-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by dapercy View Post

CBS and ABC not coming through in HD and I live 2.7 miles from the towers on top of South Mountain.

I'm scratching my head. The Direct TV installer came out today and installed my dish and a antenna attached to the dish...

Is there anything I can do to improve reception or are there any antennas that are recommended?

If you are directly north of S. Mt. you will have better luck with that antenna, as it points the same direction your dish points...not exactly the optimum for DT unless the towers are directly south of you. It is also not even very directional, and may even be an omni (if so, disregard the first part of this reply). More directionality means less multipath reception issues = better OTA DT reception.

I would try a Zenith Silver Sensor first, as that is the indoor antenna folks seem to have the best luck with. Also, certain DTV boxes (notably the HR10-250 DTivo) are susceptible to overload, and as close as you are that is a distinct possibility. You can get an attenuator, but if you have a 4-way or even a 2-way splitter lying around, try that first (no connection to the extra port) as that will knock the signal down a little. Tivocommunity.com has lots of threads on that.

I doubt you really have multipath, but it you are in an area with a lot of buildings or are shooting through trees, you might. Most folks should be able to pick up DT on a paperclip at that distance. I am 12 miles away and get perfect reception from a chunk of twinlead (in a dipole arrangement) taped to a window.
wondergt's Avatar wondergt 10:53 PM 08-23-2005
I am also near S Pointe Mountain but I think I'm on the other side. I'm at 48th street and Guadalupe. (5 miles SW of towers) I was wondering if its possible to mount an antenna next a dish satellite using dish's hardware (my dish on the roof held by bricks on some kind of base plate which looks like a place for two dishes) I am thinking about the antennasdirect DB2 but this is a Multi-directional antenna and antenna web says I need a Medium Directional Antenna. I can't have to big of an antenna because of my location and I like the DB2 because its small. I tried all the indoor antennas (radio shack, silver sensor) none of them worked correctly. So I have to go outdoor... Your help is appreciated.
dapercy's Avatar dapercy 01:33 AM 08-24-2005
Thanks for all the replies.

I got up on my roof today and noticed that the winegard says that it is amplified yet the cable that would seem to be the one that runs to the amplifier was cut and there was no amp to be found?? I have no clue if this is standard practice for DirecTV installers, but I can't see any reason to not hook up the amp. Sounds like I may not need it anyway.

As far as splitting the signal I'm concerned I won't get ABC or Fox if I do that. I went out and picked up a small indoor antenna (RCA ANT401) and have been able to place it so I get everything but CBS. When I turn it's amp off I get NBC, PAX, and UPN only.

If this is a flaw in the receiver is there another receiver that can handle strong signals better? I'm going to try more antennas until I find one that works but I'm losing hope on being able to watch CBS in HD.
dapercy's Avatar dapercy 01:37 AM 08-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondergt View Post

I am also near S Pointe Mountain but I think I'm on the other side. I'm at 48th street and Guadalupe. (5 miles SW of towers) I was wondering if its possible to mount an antenna next a dish satellite using dish's hardware (my dish on the roof held by bricks on some kind of base plate which looks like a place for two dishes) I am thinking about the antennasdirect DB2 but this is a Multi-directional antenna and antenna web says I need a Medium Directional Antenna. I can't have to big of an antenna because of my location and I like the DB2 because its small. I tried all the indoor antennas (radio shack, silver sensor) none of them worked correctly. So I have to go outdoor... Your help is appreciated.

Not sure if I'm answering your question but my outdoor antenna is secured to the post behind the satellite dish and it appears to be a standard fitting.
coyoteaz's Avatar coyoteaz 02:16 AM 08-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by dapercy View Post

Thanks for all the replies.

I got up on my roof today and noticed that the winegard says that it is amplified yet the cable that would seem to be the one that runs to the amplifier was cut and there was no amp to be found?? I have no clue if this is standard practice for DirecTV installers, but I can't see any reason to not hook up the amp. Sounds like I may not need it anyway.

At that distance, you should be able to pick up stations with nothing more than a split twinlead in a window like TomCat uses. Any outdoor antenna is plenty.

Quote:


As far as splitting the signal I'm concerned I won't get ABC or Fox if I do that. I went out and picked up a small indoor antenna (RCA ANT401) and have been able to place it so I get everything but CBS. When I turn it's amp off I get NBC, PAX, and UPN only.

My guess is you live in a house with stucco siding. The chicken wire in stucco pretty much kills all RF, so what signal you do see has probably bounced around a bit and is coming in through a window. Reception of ABC and Fox should not be an issue with a drop in signal strength from your outdoor, again due to distance. You don't need much in the way of signal strength for digital as long as it's clean. Besides, you are just adding in the splitter as a test, so worst case, you would take it out and still have what you had before.

Quote:


If this is a flaw in the receiver is there another receiver that can handle strong signals better? I'm going to try more antennas until I find one that works but I'm losing hope on being able to watch CBS in HD.

This isn't really a flaw in the receiver. Most receivers are designed to lock on to as weak of a signal as possible. Unfortunately this means that they have very sensitive electronics that can be overdriven by a very powerful station at close range. It shouldn't do any damage, but it will prevent you from being able to receive stronger channels.
ronjon2's Avatar ronjon2 04:09 PM 08-24-2005
All you have to do is rescan when you connect the cable wire to the tuner?

I just tried my new (30 min old) Samsung 5667w using autoprogram off the air with Cox Expanded cable connected but it found no channels. I tried CABLE. It gives me a choice of STANDARD, HRC or IRC . I tried off the air, off the cable, and off the choice of both Cable and Air but it can't find any channels. The analog I moved worked fine. Appreciate any ideas?
AFH's Avatar AFH 05:32 PM 08-24-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjon2 View Post

All you have to do is rescan when you connect the cable wire to the tuner?

I just tried my new (30 min old) Samsung 5667w using autoprogram off the air with Cox Expanded cable connected but it found no channels. I tried CABLE. It gives me a choice of STANDARD, HRC or IRC . I tried off the air, off the cable, and off the choice of both Cable and Air but it can't find any channels. The analog I moved worked fine. Appreciate any ideas?


Are you saying that you cannot find any channels? If you're trying to get the QAM channels using Cox and you do not have their service, as it appears from your post, you may want to check to see if Cox has a filter on the line. At least that is what has been mentioned in this thread before when people have connected a Cox line to their tv's internal tuner and no hd locals show up. A filter on the line will stop you from getting hd locals the way you're trying to.

If I'm wrong someone can correct me.
DoubleDAZ's Avatar DoubleDAZ 05:51 PM 08-24-2005
AFH, you are correct, though many areas of town no longer have traps/filters installed. From what I understand, these traps stop digital signals while allowing analog signals to go through. I don't know what the procedure is to get a trap removed. If you call, it may be difficult to get a CSR who understands the question, just keep trying.
ronjon2's Avatar ronjon2 05:55 PM 08-24-2005
That's correct, I can't find "any" channels. I have Cox's expanded (40+) channels that came thru on my analog a couple hrs ago. After hooking the Samsung up, I cant find any channels, only snow.
ronjon2's Avatar ronjon2 05:59 PM 08-24-2005
I just read about the Source button. When I press it It says "No imput devices are plugged in". I know they are, I can see them! I tested all cables and they are tight.
DoubleDAZ's Avatar DoubleDAZ 06:54 PM 08-24-2005
This certainly sounds like something other than a trap/filter on the line. I would look for some options that tell the TV what inputs to use for video, audio, etc. Oftentimes you have to tell the TV that Input1/Vid1 is being used with Component cables or something to that effect.
ronjon2's Avatar ronjon2 07:16 PM 08-24-2005
It's just a bare TV hooked to a cable, split off to HS Internet, as you can see is working fine so I know it isn't the cabeling. Selections on screen are just basic: TV - Cable -Standard with nothing else changed. I don't get it. Brand new TV and I cant see a thing .....Bummer!!
DoubleDAZ's Avatar DoubleDAZ 07:46 PM 08-24-2005
Ok, I'm confused. Are you saying:

That you replaced an old analog TV with a new Samsung DLP HDTV model HL-R5667W?

That you are simply trying to get the same Cox Expanded analog channels that you got with your old set?

That when you connect the cable from the wall to the ANT 1 IN (Cable) on the TV, you get no channels at all?

Have you tried connecting something to the ANT 2 IN (Air) just to see if you get anything there?

I think some of us are/were under the impression you were trying to get HD channels using an integrated HD tuner.
ronjon2's Avatar ronjon2 07:54 PM 08-24-2005
Everything you have said is the actual case. Yes, I tried ANT 2 IN (AIR) with identical results. Thanks for the attempts at help, you guys always come thru.
DoubleDAZ's Avatar DoubleDAZ 08:25 PM 08-24-2005
It's a shame you're having trouble with a new TV, but maybe a call to the retailer will get you a fix as soon as possible. The only other thing I would suggest is connecting the old TV back up just to make sure something didn't coincidently happen to your cable. But then, you've probably already tired that.
ronjon2's Avatar ronjon2 04:17 PM 08-25-2005
I finally called Samsung and they think it's a bad tuner. They will send someone out to look at it (first part of September). This is an area of over one and a half million people!! I can't believe it takes so long.
DoubleDAZ's Avatar DoubleDAZ 04:30 PM 08-25-2005
Try over 3 million and growing too fast for many businesses to keep up, especially those that are not local. Authorized Service Centers are not noted for speed. Depending on where you bought it, if it was locally, you might have had better luck calling them to simply get a replacement unit instead of waiting for factory service.
AFH's Avatar AFH 04:32 PM 08-25-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjon2 View Post

I finally called Samsung and they think it's a bad tuner. They will send someone out to look at it (first part of September). This is an area of over one and a half million people!! I can't believe it takes so long.


Dave, is right. You'll be better off just returning it to the store where you bought it from.
ronjon2's Avatar ronjon2 04:52 PM 08-25-2005
Unfortunately, its Butterfly Photo in N.Y. (Internet ordered for $2040.00)
DoubleDAZ's Avatar DoubleDAZ 05:05 PM 08-25-2005
Yeah, I was afraid of that. But, that's the chance you take with mail order. Usually it works out, in this case it didn't. I'm sure they'll get it fixed and, since you aren't getting HD service yet anyway, you aren't really missing much. Good luck and let us know!
Charlie_Phogg's Avatar Charlie_Phogg 06:03 PM 08-25-2005
Has anybody heard when Cox plans on adding additional HD channels to the lineup? Specifically, ESPN 2 and TNT-HD.

TIA
DoubleDAZ's Avatar DoubleDAZ 06:25 PM 08-25-2005
No, not specifically, but Omaha is adding TNT-HD in early/mid September and vegggas is expecting it to be added in Las Vegas between then and sometime in October. Emails to Cox have resulted in no useful information for Phoenix, but I'd bet we will get it during that same timeframe.

I have heard absolutely nothing about ESPN2-HD and I don't think they even have a national agreement with Cox yet, though I could be wrong about that. FWIW, TNT just agreed to one and that is why it will start showing up in Cox markets. Anyway, until that happens, it's highly doubtful any Cox markets will get it. I would suspect though that an agreement will be reached and it will come as competition heats up between cable and sat.

Stay tuned for more rumors and propaganda.
TomCat's Avatar TomCat 08:19 PM 08-25-2005
Forgive me if this is old info, and while this isn't truly an OTA reception issue, I decided to post here because it probably might apply to a lot of PHX HD viewers (so forgive me twice).

I was just setting up a second HR10-250 Tivo, which I know a lot of you also have. I was tooling around in the DirecTV HD channels when I stumbled on a HD broadcast of the D-backs/Mets game direct from the BOB . I was not really expecting this, and I'm not sure why I'm getting it, but I'm guessing it is not a mistake. I was in the group of channels that are MLBEI HD channels, when I saw this game listed on channel 95. Curious as to whether it was available PPV individually, and wondering about the price, I clicked in to see. Voila...instant game. I double checked purchases, and its not listed (whew!) and it is not a true MLBEI game, at least for the PHX market.

So, I still wonder why, but I'm not complaining. It is a simulcast of the FSAZ game on SD channel 649, so maybe if you are in PHX and get FSAZ as your regional sports channel you get it automatically, or maybe it has something to do with the O&O status of KSAZ (KSAZ/KUTP/FSAZ are owned by News Corp, which allows PHX subs to also get KTTV-DT in HD from LA).

At any rate, this means two things:

1. Local production of D-backs is (occasionally at least) in HD, which means that we probably aren't too far from HD MLB on channel 3.1

2. Whenever the D-backs are on FSAZ, it might pay HD DTV subs to check channel 95 or other channels in that area to see if there is a HD version.

OK, now its time to see if they can lose in HD, too.
TomCat's Avatar TomCat 08:52 PM 08-25-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondergt View Post

I am also near S Pointe Mountain but I think I'm on the other side. I'm at 48th street and Guadalupe. (5 miles SW of towers) I was wondering if its possible to mount an antenna next a dish satellite...antenna web says I need a Medium Directional Antenna. I can't have to big of an antenna because of my location and I like the DB2 because its small. I tried all the indoor antennas (radio shack, silver sensor) none of them worked correctly. So I have to go outdoor... Your help is appreciated.

One problem with your location is that most stations notch that direction out. That is not to say that folks in your area won't get DT, because you are still close enough to get it, but since along that axis there is no appreciable population from, what, 10-15 miles away all the way to the Tuscon coverage area, it makes sense for the PHX stations to engineer their antennas to be more directional toward the rest of the valley, which is exactly what they do.

That means a couple things. At 5 miles you will see less direct signal than most others at 5 miles, but probably not less than normally seen from other directions at 10-15 miles (IOW, still plenty of signal). You might also see more reflected signal than would be normal, which can be an issue. Or not.

Bigger is usually more directional (which you need), and higher directionality usually means more gain (which you don't need, and can be a problem, though easily remedied). Remember that most of the antennaweb info, good as it is, is based on analog reception techniques, which are significantly different from DT reception techniques. IOW, they do not really concern themselves with multipath as DT viewers typically must, and they assume you want to receive all SD stations, which you probably don't. Since all HD stations of merit come from exactly the same place (give or take) using the highest directionality you can find can only help you, regardless of what AW says.

Also, the farther you can mount your antenna away from other structure, including a DBS dish, the better, because having structure within the proximity of a wavelength or so actually can detune the directionality. It may need its own mast, and it will probably do better outside, and high.

Yagis, by the time they get super-directional, get to be 15 feet long or so. I recommend a reflector such as a mesh dish or the Channel Master 4228 for your location, as they are very directional, get UHF, and are not all that large.

With that much gain, you might also need an attenuator. The RatShack 15 dB variable is ideal for this job.
coyoteaz's Avatar coyoteaz 09:47 PM 08-25-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCat View Post

So, I still wonder why, but I'm not complaining. It is a simulcast of the FSAZ game on SD channel 649, so maybe if you are in PHX and get FSAZ as your regional sports channel you get it automatically, or maybe it has something to do with the O&O status of KSAZ (KSAZ/KUTP/FSAZ are owned by News Corp, which allows PHX subs to also get KTTV-DT in HD from LA).

At any rate, this means two things:

1. Local production of D-backs is (occasionally at least) in HD, which means that we probably aren't too far from HD MLB on channel 3.1

2. Whenever the D-backs are on FSAZ, it might pay HD DTV subs to check channel 95 or other channels in that area to see if there is a HD version.

OK, now its time to see if they can lose in HD, too.

This has been happening all season. Occasional games are produced in HD, and air on Cox 722 and D* 95.
The D-Backs do all production (HD and otherwise) themselves, so 3.1 would air them if they existed, but all HD-produced games thus far have been FSN and there hasn't been any specific word of doing any on KTVK. Doing an HD game on 3.1 wouldn't make sense from a viewership point of view, because it isn't carried on any cable or satellite provider, while the FSN games are carried on both Cox and D*. I would wager that the majority of HD viewers in Phoenix subscribe to either Cox or D* just for the additional channel offerings, especially those who are sports fans.
Theoretically, if the D-Backs did do HD for a game on KTVK, the best idea would be to air it on KASW-DT since that is carried by Cox, so at least a larger number of viewers can see it. Since Belo owns both stations, and they are both operated from the same location, it could be done easily.

On a more off-topic note, is the game on D* 95 carried on a Phoenix spot beam or CONUS?
Deftones17's Avatar Deftones17 10:39 PM 08-25-2005
TomCat, because the Fox station is O&O (which you obviously know), DirecTV shows all home FSN games in HD for locals on that channel. If you go to this site: http://msn.foxsports.com/name/HD you will see that all the O&O regional FSN's will do HD games in that particular market. At this point, while watching the Dbacks in HD, it's still like watching an HD turd.
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