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post #991 of 11169 Old 10-14-2005, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kb7oeb View Post

I use a plain rooftop antenna but my Mom and step dad live near cave creek and carefree and we were able to pick up most of the stations with plain rabbit years that came with a 13 inch tv.

Rabbit years?
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post #992 of 11169 Old 10-14-2005, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

...bottom of South Mountain south of the towers. They are on the other side of the mountain and may present problems no matter what antenna he tries...his close proximty can actually be a negative...)

That is unfortunately true. Not only that, but most stations, KSAZ included, tune their transmit antennas to provide less signal to the SW (actually more signal to the other directions). My best guess is that finding the "sweet spot" is the key...the constructive/destructive nature of multipath interference means that the tuning and placement must be probably more precise in this area, meaning that a highly-directional antenna (CM-4228) is in order. Also, while pointing directly at the towers seems like the obvious place to start, we all might be surprised by which actual orientation works the best at this location. If using a HR10-250 Tivo, attenuation might also be needed.

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post #993 of 11169 Old 10-14-2005, 06:06 PM
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I have been seeing this for a few days, and am wondering if anyone else is seeing it. It does not appear to be a reception issue. There is very brief video breakup and concurrent pixellation about every minute or so. It is not ever severe enough to unlock the audio, but still a bit annoying. I see it on two HR10s and a Sony 60XS, so while it could be my antenna, it is likely not my receivers. Also, nothing has changed on my antenna system, so for that and other reasons I am guessing it is a CBS or KPHO-DT problem, or both.

But, if no one else is seeing it, maybe not.

Li'l help?

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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post #994 of 11169 Old 10-14-2005, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TomCat View Post

I have been seeing this for a few days, and am wondering if anyone else is seeing it. It does not appear to be a reception issue. There is very brief video breakup and concurrent pixellation about every minute or so. It is not ever severe enough to unlock the audio, but still a bit annoying. I see it on two HR10s and a Sony 60XS, so while it could be my antenna, it is likely not my receivers. Also, nothing has changed on my antenna system, so for that and other reasons I am guessing it is a CBS or KPHO-DT problem, or both.

But, if no one else is seeing it, maybe not.

Li'l help?

Yes, I am also seeing this.
It's definitely an issue on the other side of the muxer from us, because the TS still demuxes cleanly and there are no CRC errors in the AC3.
NBC has been having similar issues, so I wonder if it's related to the weather problems in NYC or to the sunspots from the last week.

I emailed Damon at the station about it, but have not received a response.
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post #995 of 11169 Old 10-14-2005, 10:33 PM
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So i take it there is no clear cut answer to my question which is the best indoor antena for HD. I know you guys like to get into the tach side of things for what i'v been reading but just a name of a few antenas would be nice lol .....have a nice day guys.
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post #996 of 11169 Old 10-15-2005, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by wrightejw View Post

So i take it there is no clear cut answer to my question which is the best indoor antena for HD. I know you guys like to get into the tach side of things for what i'v been reading but just a name of a few antenas would be nice lol .....have a nice day guys.

Zenith's Silver Sensor is widely regarded as the best indoor UHF antenna. Depending on your distance from the towers and what is between your antenna and them, you may also have luck with the amplified HDTV antenna available at radio shack, or possibly with nothing more than a simple bowtie if you live in the right part of town and have a window facing the towers. There are numerous other threads on AVS, and numerous other posts in this thread regarding antennas, so doing a search will help you find some other possibilities.
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post #997 of 11169 Old 10-15-2005, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wrightejw View Post

So i take it there is no clear cut answer to my question which is the best indoor antena for HD. I know you guys like to get into the tach side of things for what i'v been reading but just a name of a few antenas would be nice lol .....have a nice day guys.

The problem is you limited your query to indoor antennas. As such, there is only one "named" antenna of any repute and that is the Zenith Silver Sensor. I'm sure there are a bunch of indoor antennas out there, but brand names are not well known or discussed other then the SS. From everything I've read over the years, if you've tried rabbit-ears, etc., and don't have any luck with the SS, you will almost certainly need to move to an outdoor antenna (perhaps in the attic).

Cheers, Dave
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post #998 of 11169 Old 10-15-2005, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

Yes, I am also seeing this.
It's definitely an issue on the other side of the muxer from us, because the TS still demuxes cleanly and there are no CRC errors in the AC3.
NBC has been having similar issues, so I wonder if it's related to the weather problems in NYC or to the sunspots from the last week.

I emailed Damon at the station about it, but have not received a response.

If I had to guess, I would say that this problem appeared at just about exactly the same time KPHO got the ability to add local bug logos (which hopefully also means they will be able to refrain from dumping to SD in the last segment to promote their local news once the rating period starts, as they did last year). It might be related, might not.

I don't think weather or solar issues would do this, and I don't see this problem on 15.1. This one is pretty distinct in how it manifests, what with the breakup just primarily on motion (but probably not motion-related) and no audio unlock.

But thanks, at least we know it isn't us. It's fun being a pioneer.

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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post #999 of 11169 Old 10-15-2005, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TomCat View Post

I have been seeing this for a few days, and am wondering if anyone else is seeing it. It does not appear to be a reception issue. There is very brief video breakup and concurrent pixellation about every minute or so. It is not ever severe enough to unlock the audio, but still a bit annoying. I see it on two HR10s and a Sony 60XS, so while it could be my antenna, it is likely not my receivers. Also, nothing has changed on my antenna system, so for that and other reasons I am guessing it is a CBS or KPHO-DT problem, or both.

But, if no one else is seeing it, maybe not.

Li'l help?


I've seen it as well. My recording or lack thereof of CSI on Thursday night was ruined b/c of this issue. I've also noticed that during the SEC football games of the past two or three Saturdays, the pixelation has been severe.

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post #1000 of 11169 Old 10-15-2005, 08:13 PM
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I currently have Cox digital service in north Phoenix and I'm getting my first HDTV (Sony KDS-R60XBR1) on Monday, and I'd like to know what I'll need to request when I call up Cox.

I definitely want to get HD-DVR service, so does Cox have a selection of recorders, or only one? Which one should I get? My TV will have HDMI input connectors. Will Cox provide an HDMI cable?

I see lots of mention of the SA8300HD. For the one that Cox has, is it a dual-tuner box? Does it support adding an external SATA drive? I've heard that some cable companies don't allow this.

If the HDMI cable is used, is the optical digital output active at the same time, and does it pass Dolby Digital 5.1 if the TV only has an HDMI 1.0 (2 channel) interface?

Thanks!
Dennis
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post #1001 of 11169 Old 10-15-2005, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djwilso View Post

does Cox have a selection of recorders, or only one?

No, they only offer the one, the SA8300HD.

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Will Cox provide an HDMI cable?

Not that I know. Unless something has changed, the 8300 comes with a set of Component cables and L-R Audio cables.

Quote:


is it a dual-tuner box? Does it support adding an external SATA drive?

It actually has 4 tuners (2 analog/2 digital), but for all practical purposes, it is considered a dual-tuner unit. You can record 2 programs while waching a previously recorded program.

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I've heard that some cable companies don't allow this.

Some cableco's use Passport software instead of SARA software that Cox uses and that is why SATA external drives are not yet supported by those cableco's. SATA drives are not directly supported by any cableco's that I know of, but it does work (at your own risk) on the 8300's provided by Cox.
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If the HDMI cable is used, is the optical digital output active at the same time, and does it pass Dolby Digital 5.1 if the TV only has an HDMI 1.0 (2 channel) interface?

Yes, you simply need to change the Digital Audio Out setting to DD vs HDMI, though there might be some setups that still have problems even with this setting.

Based on your questions, it appears that you've already read through the SA8300HD threads (Tips & Tricks and SATA) but missed all the answers, they're all there. However, if you haven't, you should check out the Master thread and read through the sub-threads, particularly the first post in the Tips & Tricks thread.

Cheers, Dave
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post #1002 of 11169 Old 10-15-2005, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

No, they only offer the one, the SA8300HD.

Not that I know. Unless something has changed, the 8300 comes with a set of Component cables and L-R Audio cables.

It actually has 4 tuners (2 analog/2 digital), but for all practical purposes, it is considered a dual-tuner unit. You can record 2 programs while waching a previously recorded program.

Some cableco's use Passport software instead of SARA software that Cox uses and that is why SATA external drives are not yet supported by those cableco's. SATA drives are not directly supported by any cableco's that I know of, but it does work (at your own risk) on the 8300's provided by Cox. Yes, you simply need to change the Digital Audio Out setting to DD vs HDMI, though there might be some setups that still have problems even with this setting.

Based on your questions, it appears that you've already read through the SA8300HD threads (Tips & Tricks and SATA) but missed all the answers, they're all there. However, if you haven't, you should check out the Master thread and read through the sub-threads, particularly the first post in the Tips & Tricks thread.

Thanks for the answers - much appreciated! And, no, I hadn't seen all of those threads, only the one titled "8300HD and External SATA - It Works!!", which I didn't see any Cox or Phoenix-specific info in from the posts I read. Wow, I think I'll be reading all night!

Although from what you've told me, I know what I need to ask for now. Thank you again.

Dennis
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post #1003 of 11169 Old 10-16-2005, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by TomCat View Post

If I had to guess, I would say that this problem appeared at just about exactly the same time KPHO got the ability to add local bug logos (which hopefully also means they will be able to refrain from dumping to SD in the last segment to promote their local news once the rating period starts, as they did last year). It might be related, might not.

I don't think weather or solar issues would do this, and I don't see this problem on 15.1. This one is pretty distinct in how it manifests, what with the breakup just primarily on motion (but probably not motion-related) and no audio unlock.

But thanks, at least we know it isn't us. It's fun being a pioneer.

No one has been able to get ahold of Damon at the station for the last week. Since his title is HD Engineer, it's probably his responsibility to fix it, so if he's not been at work, that would explain the continuing problems.
The problems occur do seem to only on high motion, and therefore high bitrate scenes. Since the problems are before the encoder, maybe they are having problems with their receiver or something. Lets all flood the station with calls on Monday if the problem continues so maybe we can get some official word on the cause and what is being done about it. We may be pioneers, but if we all join together they can't ignore us (or maybe they can, it worked for a long time for KNXV).
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post #1004 of 11169 Old 10-16-2005, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djwilso View Post

And, no, I hadn't seen all of those threads.....Wow, I think I'll be reading all night!

Given that, it's amazing you were able to ask all the right questions.

Depending on how geeky you are, you might find reading through the threads pretty interesting, though a bit time-consuming. The threads are pretty long, but you can get a good idea of how far we have or haven't come.

Just be sure to bookmark the first post in the Tips & Tricks thread and refer to it first when you have operating questions. That post is maintained with the most current info and I try to keep it updated as software/options change.

The SATA thread will have all the info you need to order an enclosure and drive if you decide to go that route. It's too bad the thread starter didn't make the first post a summary of drives, enclosures, cables, etc.

The 8300HD will let you record around 20 hours of HD content. I've yet to fill mine up, but then we tend to watch what we record, we're basically 1 day time-shifters, and we catch up on a few movies on weekends. Even if I could record 60 hours worth of content, I simply don't know when I'd ever watch it, though I understand why some folks need/want the extra capacity.

Cheers, Dave
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post #1005 of 11169 Old 10-16-2005, 08:25 PM
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We have basic analog Cox cable. I hooked up our Sony A10 to the cable, and I was able to get all 7 HDTV channels listed at the start of this thread. However, 76.1 and 76.2 (Fox and WB) sometimes have frequent glitches (in the evening especially). When it's having problems (like it was a couple weeks ago) there's almost 1 picture breakup every 10 seconds. When it's working well there is maybe 1 breakup every 5-10 minutes. On certain channels like PBS HD, I don't think I've ever seen a breakup. Is my equipment at fault or Cox? Is there an easy explanation why Fox and WB are most affected?

Would there be any point in me buying an antenna for the roof (we're in the east valley) hoping it would eliminate these glitches on Fox and WB, or is it impossible for an antenna to do any better than Cox's analog cable for these HDTV channels?

Would an antenna give me any new channels? On the first page I see 9 channels listed for OTA instead of the 7 for analog cable. So I would gain 2 channels?

A couple weeks ago I got NBAP on 650, but now it's gone. It may not have been HD, but it was digital. I still get PPVPB on 500. Are those channels not listed in this thread because they are only digital and not HD?

I apologize if these questions have already been answered before, but this thread is so big and many of the technical aspects of these antenna discussions go over my head. I just want to know what I can/should get with an antenna vs. Cox analog cable so I can decide if it's worth buying an antenna. Thanks.
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post #1006 of 11169 Old 10-16-2005, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MoesArt View Post

We have basic analog Cox cable. I hooked up our Sony A10 to the cable, and I was able to get all 7 HDTV channels listed at the start of this thread. However, 76.1 and 76.2 (Fox and WB) sometimes have frequent glitches (in the evening especially). When it's having problems (like it was a couple weeks ago) there's almost 1 picture breakup every 10 seconds. When it's working well there is maybe 1 breakup every 5-10 minutes. On certain channels like PBS HD, I don't think I've ever seen a breakup. Is my equipment at fault or Cox? Is there an easy explanation why Fox and WB are most affected?

FOX and WB share the same frequency, so that might be the reason those are the 2 channels you have problms with. But, that is not the problem. If you have your cable split for internet and TV, you might have a marginal signal. To test this, try taking out the split temporarily to see if the problem goes away or lessens. Even if there is no split near the TV, there might be other splits within the house and the signal could still be marginal.

Quote:


Would there be any point in me buying an antenna for the roof (we're in the east valley) hoping it would eliminate these glitches on Fox and WB, or is it impossible for an antenna to do any better than Cox's analog cable for these HDTV channels?

That all depends on location and type antenna. Cox gets their signals OTA also, albeit probably with a much larger antenna, and the signals should be virtually the same (as mentioned by those who have, or have tried, both). If cable signal strength is the problem, fixing that should resolve the issue and eliminate the hassle of finding the right antenna for your location.

Quote:


Would an antenna give me any new channels? On the first page I see 9 channels listed for OTA instead of the 7 for analog cable. So I would gain 2 channels?

Yes, Cox does not carry digital UPN (KUTP-45) or 3TV (KTVK-3) yet and likely won't until they begin HD broadcasts.

Quote:


A couple weeks ago I got NBAP on 650, but now it's gone. It may not have been HD, but it was digital. I still get PPVPB on 500. Are those channels not listed in this thread because they are only digital and not HD?

Yes, this thread only tracks HD, but includes PBS Kids simply because it is a sub-channel for an HD channel.

Quote:


I apologize if these questions have already been answered before, but this thread is so big and many of the technical aspects of these antenna discussions go over my head. I just want to know what I can/should get with an antenna vs. Cox analog cable so I can decide if it's worth buying an antenna. Thanks.

No need to apologize, it doesn't hurt to reiterate some of this info from time to time.

Cheers, Dave
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post #1007 of 11169 Old 10-16-2005, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TomCat View Post

I have been seeing this for a few days, and am wondering if anyone else is seeing it. It does not appear to be a reception issue. There is very brief video breakup and concurrent pixellation about every minute or so. It is not ever severe enough to unlock the audio, but still a bit annoying. I see it on two HR10s and a Sony 60XS, so while it could be my antenna, it is likely not my receivers. Also, nothing has changed on my antenna system, so for that and other reasons I am guessing it is a CBS or KPHO-DT problem, or both.

But, if no one else is seeing it, maybe not.

Li'l help?

I noticed this problem today watching the NFL games that were on KPHO over Cox through an 8300HD. Since I watch absolutely no network TV during the week I can't say when it started but I don't recall seeing it last weekend during any of the games that were on.
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post #1008 of 11169 Old 10-16-2005, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

Lets all flood the station with calls on Monday if the problem continues so maybe we can get some official word on the cause and what is being done about it. We may be pioneers, but if we all join together they can't ignore us (or maybe they can, it worked for a long time for KNXV).

FWIW, I emailed them at their eng. email address with a decritiption of the problem (actually, I stole TomCat's description since it was better than I could come up with).
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post #1009 of 11169 Old 10-17-2005, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Charlie_Phogg View Post

FWIW, I emailed them at their eng. email address with a decritiption of the problem (actually, I stole TomCat's description since it was better than I could come up with).

I too have noticed a lot of video artifacts and audio drop outs on OTA HD CBS, especially during the NFL broadcast.
This occurs with a signal strenght of 93.

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post #1010 of 11169 Old 10-17-2005, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

No one has been able to get ahold of Damon at the station for the last week. Since his title is HD Engineer, it's probably his responsibility to fix it, so if he's not been at work, that would explain the continuing problems.
The problems occur do seem to only on high motion, and therefore high bitrate scenes. Since the problems are before the encoder, maybe they are having problems with their receiver or something. Lets all flood the station with calls on Monday if the problem continues so maybe we can get some official word on the cause and what is being done about it. We may be pioneers, but if we all join together they can't ignore us (or maybe they can, it worked for a long time for KNXV).

Maybe it would be better if we just had an email address that would allow them to realize that lots of us are seeing this problem without "flooding" their ability to deal with it. Too much attention has a point of diminishing returns, but is still better than "not enough" complaining. Email seems to work best for this kind of thing at this stage of the game. Phone calls start to make a lot more sense once the email is ignored.

I still have a sneaking suspicion that they have degraded the signal as a side "benefit" of them adding live graphics capability. That should be somewhat easy to prove, by hooking up an analyzer to the CBS signal on either side of that box, or possibly by even viewing an "eye" pattern on a scope. But since this is brief and irregular, and not constant, they need an analyzer that can do real-time captures and isolate moments where there are problems from the generally problem-free moments, and that is not quite as easy to do.

Dollars to donuts the new graphics box has added enough jitter to the signal to be causing the breakup. If so, the longer they are content to live with the problem, the less-motivated the vendor of that equipment will be to resolve the problem, so let's hope they aren't back-burner-ing it.

Also, IMHO it does not seem to be payload-related (does not seem to be aggravated by motion) as much as it is much more visible when there IS motion (a distinct difference) because macroblocking or other visual refresh-related anomalies that manifest as pixellation on still scenes are not so noticeable as they are on motion. On "Numb3rs" the entire screen would pixellate even on still shots of Charlie's chalkboard, and in scenes where most of the screen was not moving but someone raised their arm, for instance, only the part of the screen with the movement pixellated while the non-moving part of the screen seemed not to pixellate. But, since it was not moving, there is no way to really know (as a viewer) if the macroblocks were refreshing properly or not, except exactly in the part of the screen where there was motion. Also, there are plenty of high-motion sequences that seem to show no problem at all, meaning that this is not likely a bandwidth-constriction issue at all, more likely a timing/jitter issue.

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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post #1011 of 11169 Old 10-17-2005, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree with your assessment, TomCat. One thing that sticks out in my mind though is that Damon was running very close to the Mbps limit and perhaps adding the live graphics capability pushed it over the edge and he simply didn't notice it or didn't adjust enough. Any chance this is a factor?

Cheers, Dave
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post #1012 of 11169 Old 10-17-2005, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

I agree with your assessment, TomCat. One thing that sticks out in my mind though is that Damon was running very close to the Mbps limit and perhaps adding the live graphics capability pushed it over the edge and he simply didn't notice it or didn't adjust enough. Any chance this is a factor?

I would imagine the graphics generator works on the uncompressed video before it hits the encoder, so output bitrate should have nothing to do with it. Also, if the bitrate were too high, then there would be problems with our reception, and the TS would not demux cleanly. As it is, I am able to completely demux the TS and have no problems with the AC3 (no CRC errors or missing sync bits or anything of the sort as verified by different AC3 tools) indicating that the problem is on the opposite side of the encoder. TomCat's theory certainly makes sense, and if KPHO does nothing to fix it, shame on them.
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post #1013 of 11169 Old 10-18-2005, 07:05 AM
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I'm not sure when it started but I have also been noticing white dots in the picture on 5-1.
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post #1014 of 11169 Old 10-18-2005, 10:37 AM
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I finally got HD service through Cox last night. I know TNT-HD was just added to their lineup last week but it looks terrible. It kept pixelating and dropping audio making it unwatchable. Anyone else have this issue?
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post #1015 of 11169 Old 10-18-2005, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Deathbear View Post

I finally got HD service through Cox last night. I know TNT-HD was just added to their lineup last week but it looks terrible. It kept pixelating and dropping audio making it unwatchable. Anyone else have this issue?

I recently got Cox HD service as well and when the TNT-HD went live, I only saw a blank screen with no audio. I was also seeing pixelation on many SD digital channels, and the analog channels looked very bad. It turns out that I was splitting my signal too much causing reception issues in my 3250HD cable box. I ended up getting a Radio Shack 1-to-4 Bi-Directional Cable-TV Amplifier to split the signal and all my reception issues went away. TNT-HD comes in fine now, no pixelation on any of the digital channels, and the analog channels look much better too.
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post #1016 of 11169 Old 10-18-2005, 05:13 PM
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I agree with your assessment, TomCat. One thing that sticks out in my mind though is that Damon was running very close to the Mbps limit and perhaps adding the live graphics capability pushed it over the edge and he simply didn't notice it or didn't adjust enough. Any chance this is a factor?

An astute observation. That's certainly not to be ruled out, but since it doesn't appear to aggravate things when there is high motion I would tend to doubt it. Also, when the graphic is in it doesn't seem to change. I'm also not familiar enough with their process to even guess that this would up the bit rate, which it does not do significantly in similar systems.

A little birdie tells me that new CBS equipment (locally) might be at the crux of the matter, and that there might even be a resolution soon.

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post #1017 of 11169 Old 10-18-2005, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathbear View Post

I finally got HD service through Cox last night. I know TNT-HD was just added to their lineup last week but it looks terrible. It kept pixelating and dropping audio making it unwatchable. Anyone else have this issue?

Do you have a splitter? If so, remove it temporarily to see if the problem goes away. If it does, then you need to find an alternative, either a better splitter more) or the solution AnthemAZ used. Digital and HD are more prone to problems with low signals.

If you don't have a splitter, let us know and we'll try to offer other ideas.

Also, is the problem limited to TNT-HD like AnthemAZ's was? And, which HD tuner did you get from Cox? 3250HD or 8300HD?

Cheers, Dave
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post #1018 of 11169 Old 10-18-2005, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDAZ View Post

Do you have a splitter? If so, remove it temporarily to see if the problem goes away. If it does, then you need to find an alternative, either a better splitter more) or the solution AnthemAZ used. Digital and HD are more prone to problems with low signals.

If you don't have a splitter, let us know and we'll try to offer other ideas.

Also, is the problem limited to TNT-HD like AnthemAZ's was? And, which HD tuner did you get from Cox? 3250HD or 8300HD?

Ok, I'm not a COX cable subscriber, get my HD OTA and from DTV (not much from them...LOL) but if one is paying for HD service from COX, and one is not getting proper signals, shouldn't one place a call to COX to fix the problem versus trying to debug the problem themselves?

If I have OTA problems, that my problem. But if DTV HD ain't workin', then I call DTV.
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post #1019 of 11169 Old 10-18-2005, 07:26 PM
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Anyone else noticing the out of sync audio on tonight's Gilmore Girls?

"I'm going to call them scallywags" - Ollie

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post #1020 of 11169 Old 10-18-2005, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolffpack View Post

... but if one is paying for HD service from COX, and one is not getting proper signals, shouldn't one place a call to COX to fix the problem versus trying to debug the problem themselves?

Yes, I tried that first. The CSR was of no help.
I solved the problem myself with the amp based on info from our other local forum.
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