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post #11251 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 11:38 AM
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http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD-10.../dp/B001DFTGQU

Thinking this might be the perfect solution for my situation -- no low band VHF stations, difficulty pulling in VHF high band in my attic. Could work in the attic, or would definitely work on the roof, yes? (EDIT: reviews surprisingly say this does poorly with hi vhf... leaning towards the RCA)

14 miles from the towers, antennaweb and tvfool say all my desired channels are green yet I have a LOT of trouble with 8/10/12.

Or this antenna? I'm not sure if I'm close enough to have to worry about multipath... years ago I lived seven miles away and it was a problem.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0024R4B5C/...=IMV85Z3BPP713

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post #11252 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 12:00 PM
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Thanks -- that's been my theory (poor reception of VHF) but when I hook in my silver sensor antenna EVERYTHING comes in 100% except 8/10/12... so what does that mean? ...

Amplified antenna?
Is there a way to diplex a UHF and a VHF antenna?

Thanks,
Michael
Michael, it is unlikely that an amp will help. The need for a preamp (on the antenna mast) is typically when you are 40 miles or more away. The need for a distribution amp is when you are splitting the signal to multiple outlets (4 or more, typically). Neither of those will cure reception issues at 14 miles.

The SS is a UHF-only antenna, so that would explain why 8/10/12 are missing. I love the SS because it has good backside rejection, and works well for HD on UHF; back in the day it was a prime recommendation. But with 8/10/12 returning to VHF, it might not get them well in some locations.

And yes, you can easily diplex UHF and VHF; you can get a $6 item from RatShack that looks like a TV splitter that will do this. But to use two antennae together, you either have to have them NOT capable of receiving the same bands (often UHF-only and VHF-only antennae can cross into the other band), dedicate one to one axis and the other to another (if UHF came from one direction and VHF from another) or physically arrange them in an array that will make the signal additive. So in reality, a good VHF-UHF antenna is best, especially since everything is coming from the same direction anyway.

My favorite antenna which is a proven performer in high-multipath conditions is the Channel Master CM4228. It is billed as a UHF antenna, but it also dips well into 8/10/12. It's about $60 bucks, highly directional, and fits well in an attic. More on HDTVPrimer.com.

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post #11253 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 12:09 PM
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... I'm not sure if I'm close enough to have to worry about multipath... years ago I lived seven miles away and it was a problem.
...
Multipath becomes an issue when you get far enough from the station that the curvature of the earth starts to mess with line-of-sight, is also high when very close to the towers (a couple miles), and at any distance where there can be a prominent reflection from a building, sign, watertower, what have you. I would think that 5-20 miles would not be a prime position for multipath, assuming no large reflective items. Sometimes just moving the antenna 5 feet will bring it out of a destructive node location, however.

Tuners are much better than they were just a few years ago. You used to absolutely need line of sight; now you don't. But it you do not have it, your multipath will be higher, implying the need for a better antenna. Wait for a clear night and try to see if you can see the tower lights through binoculars. If you can, you have line of sight. My best guess would be that any VHF-UHF antenna should work for you at 14 miles.

The cure for multipath is directionality, which is what the CM4228 excels at. Directionality also has the side-benefit of more gain.

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post #11254 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 12:22 PM
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Multipath becomes an issue when you get far enough from the station that the curvature of the earth starts to mess with line-of-sight, is also high when very close to the towers (a couple miles), and at any distance where there can be a prominent reflection from a building, sign, watertower, what have you. I would think that 5-20 miles would not be a prime position for multipath, assuming no large reflective items. Sometimes just moving the antenna 5 feet will bring it out of a destructive node location, however.

Tuners are much better than they were just a few years ago. You used to absolutely need line of sight; now you don't. But it you do not have it, your multipath will be higher, implying the need for a better antenna. Wait for a clear night and try to see if you can see the tower lights through binoculars. If you can, you have line of sight. My best guess would be that any VHF-UHF antenna should work for you at 14 miles.

The cure for multipath is directionality, which is what the CM4228 excels at. Directionality also has the side-benefit of more gain.
Thanks TomCat,

I'm not having any luck finding the 4228 for around $60, but it looks like it would solve all my problems and maybe be overkill, but like I said I'd really rather just buy one antenna and be done. Seeing as I was able to previously get VHF hi in my attic with a cheap indoor antenna you think the 4228 would have any problems if I mounted it in my attic? I have a feeling the tuner in my Panasonic may have been superior to the current Samsung.
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post #11255 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 12:36 PM
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Thanks TomCat,

I'm not having any luck finding the 4228 for around $60, but it looks like it would solve all my problems and maybe be overkill, but like I said I'd really rather just buy one antenna and be done. Seeing as I was able to previously get VHF hi in my attic with a cheap indoor antenna you think the 4228 would have any problems if I mounted it in my attic? I have a feeling the tuner in my Panasonic may have been superior to the current Samsung.
I can't imagine there being any problem at all. I've seen them on SolidSignal.com, not sure what they are going for these days. Not sure they still even make it. They also have a smaller version that might work well for you.

Oh, wow! its $127 on Amazon, something I paid under $50 for 10 years ago. But go there, and select the "40-mile" antenna, the 4220, which would probably be just right for you. One caveat, the 4228 "just happens" to get high VHF, not so sure about the smaller ones (Edit: Amazon is referring only to the 4228 as "high VHF", so maybe that was bad advice just now). HDTVPrimer can sort all of that out for you. Or, just get any VHF-UHF antenna; $127 is a bit strong for me, and you don't need a Mercedes, just a Camry, to get to the store from where you are.

Unless your tuner is over 5 years old, it is probably at a state of art that means it would be fine for what you are trying to do. Again, your situation is not probably that severe, so other VHF-UHF antennae would likely be fine; I recommend the 4228 for severe multipath situations, because I see it work well in that situation daily. But it is a good, cheap (at least it used to be), antenna, and will work better, even in your situation, than a middle-tier antenna.

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post #11256 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 12:43 PM
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I can't imagine there being any problem at all. I've seen them on SolidSignal.com, not sure what they are going for these days. Not sure they still even make it. They also have a smaller version that might work well for you.

Oh, wow! its $127 on Amazon, something I paid under $50 for 10 years ago. But go there, and select the "40-mile" antenna, the 4220, which would probably be just right for you. One caveat, the 4228 "just happens" to get high VHF, not so sure about the smaller ones. HDTVPrimer can sort all of that out for you. Or, just get any VHF-UHF antenna; $127 is a bit strong for me, and you don't need a Mercedes, just a Camry, to get to the store from where you are.

Unless your tuner is over 5 years old, it is probably at a state of art that means it would be fine for what you are trying to do. Again, your situation is not probably that severe, so other VHF-UHF antennae would likely be fine; I recommend the 4228 for severe multipath situations, because I see it work well in that situation daily. But it is a good, cheap (at least it used to be), antenna, and will work better, even in your situation, than a middle-tier antenna.
Thanks! Yeah I was surprised too, I don't remember them being that expensive. I'm pretty sure the 4228 was singled out for hi vhf so it's probably not worth messing around with the 4220 or 4221 but if I can confirm they pull those stations I'll check them out.
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post #11257 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 12:48 PM
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Regrdless, Channel Master is a place to start, as they make good stuff. I'd see what else they might have, but don't feel that you are compelled; if a Winegard is VHF-UHF for ~$40-50, I'd do that. Try SolidSignal.

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post #11258 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 01:28 PM
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Thanks -- that's been my theory (poor reception of VHF) but when I hook in my silver sensor antenna EVERYTHING comes in 100% except 8/10/12... so what does that mean?
I've never had or needed one, but my understanding is that the Silver Sensor is a UHF antenna, which would have problems with 8, 10 and 12. It would have worked great prior to the digital conversion, because those channels were on UHF at the time but switched back when analog was shut down.

Paul
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post #11259 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 04:01 PM
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From HDTV Primer:

Using a UHF antenna for VHF
Some UHF antennas are advertised as working for VHF also. As the following net gain graph shows, there is not much truth in that. For channels 7-13, the MegaWave and the Winegard PR-8800 perform about as well as rabbit ears. The Square Shooter is terrible for all VHF channels. All of these antennas are useless for channels 2-6.

The surprise here is the Channel Master 4228, which has a lot of gain for VHF-high, especially channels 9-13. What makes it different is the screen that is continuous across all 8 dipoles. Other 8-bays, like the 8800 and the DB-8, have a reflector that is not continuous across the right and left halves, and thus they have no useful gain for VHF. Channel Master is preparing a new version of the 4228 that will likely be even better for VHF-high.

I didn't find anything encouraging out there regarding any older CMs, so I'm probably just going to pay the money for the 4228. It must be that pricey for a reason...
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post #11260 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 04:03 PM
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From HDTV Primer:

Using a UHF antenna for VHF
Some UHF antennas are advertised as working for VHF also. As the following net gain graph shows, there is not much truth in that. For channels 7-13, the MegaWave and the Winegard PR-8800 perform about as well as rabbit ears. The Square Shooter is terrible for all VHF channels. All of these antennas are useless for channels 2-6.

The surprise here is the Channel Master 4228, which has a lot of gain for VHF-high, especially channels 9-13. What makes it different is the screen that is continuous across all 8 dipoles. Other 8-bays, like the 8800 and the DB-8, have a reflector that is not continuous across the right and left halves, and thus they have no useful gain for VHF. Channel Master is preparing a new version of the 4228 that will likely be even better for VHF-high.

I didn't find anything encouraging out there regarding any older CMs, so I'm probably just going to pay the money for the 4228. It must be that pricey for a reason...
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post #11261 of 11272 Old 01-20-2015, 05:10 PM
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HDTVPrimer.com also has this:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Lots of good info, but there is also info on Hi-V performance of "UHF" antennae. Also, what you are really looking for is an antenna that gets UHF and Hi-V, so you could get one of those (UHF-VHF) as well. Notice the comparison to a loop antenna, even at UHF.

This resource has been here for a while, so some of these might not be available any more.

So, much of this deals with raw gain. While gain implies directionality, it is not always a 1-1 correlation. As well as checking the gain, you might want to look at the polar patterns which tell you how directional the antenna is. You can spend more than you need to, but you can't ever have "too much" directionality.

But looking at this just briefly, it looks like there are a lot of candidates that would work for you. I still would probably want the 4228, but I'm not sure I wouldn't wince as I pressed the send button to complete the order (causes a twinge in the wallet area). It could mean the difference between good reception or marginal reception, but something less might just work fine where you are. Also, it might make the difference between one minor glitch every 24 hours, or 3 minor glitches every 24 hours.

In digital, everything is perfect until it isn't, while in analog reception quality is gauged as how consistently noise and ghost-free the picture is. So in a good area, digital reception with a good antenna might be perfect 99.99% of the time, while with a great antenna it might be perfect 99.999% of the time. And a marginal antenna might give you perfect reception ~97% of the time, so its all about what you are comfortable with and what you can afford (and where your are). But you never know exactly what will work in a given area until you try it. Check out what the local neighbors have up on their roofs, which might give you a little direction.

If it were me, I would try to find something less expensive that appeared to have good performance, and try that out. If it didn't make the grade, then I could justify the wincing when upgrading to the 4228. Just make sure there is a good return policy on the others. Of course if you are going external, that is not something you want to do over and over, so in that case maybe bite the bullet and get the Mercedes (4228).

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post #11262 of 11272 Old 01-21-2015, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
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HDTVPrimer.com also has this:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Lots of good info, but there is also info on Hi-V performance of "UHF" antennae. Also, what you are really looking for is an antenna that gets UHF and Hi-V, so you could get one of those (UHF-VHF) as well. Notice the comparison to a loop antenna, even at UHF.

This resource has been here for a while, so some of these might not be available any more.

So, much of this deals with raw gain. While gain implies directionality, it is not always a 1-1 correlation. As well as checking the gain, you might want to look at the polar patterns which tell you how directional the antenna is. You can spend more than you need to, but you can't ever have "too much" directionality.

But looking at this just briefly, it looks like there are a lot of candidates that would work for you. I still would probably want the 4228, but I'm not sure I wouldn't wince as I pressed the send button to complete the order (causes a twinge in the wallet area). It could mean the difference between good reception or marginal reception, but something less might just work fine where you are. Also, it might make the difference between one minor glitch every 24 hours, or 3 minor glitches every 24 hours.

In digital, everything is perfect until it isn't, while in analog reception quality is gauged as how consistently noise and ghost-free the picture is. So in a good area, digital reception with a good antenna might be perfect 99.99% of the time, while with a great antenna it might be perfect 99.999% of the time. And a marginal antenna might give you perfect reception ~97% of the time, so its all about what you are comfortable with and what you can afford (and where your are). But you never know exactly what will work in a given area until you try it. Check out what the local neighbors have up on their roofs, which might give you a little direction.

If it were me, I would try to find something less expensive that appeared to have good performance, and try that out. If it didn't make the grade, then I could justify the wincing when upgrading to the 4228. Just make sure there is a good return policy on the others. Of course if you are going external, that is not something you want to do over and over, so in that case maybe bite the bullet and get the Mercedes (4228).
Thanks TomCat -- my thoughts with the hi VHF are, clearly in my attic I have trouble pulling in only those signals, so if I go with something OTHER than the 4228, what level of improvement do those tests on HDTVprimer give me? All I've used besides the Silver Sensor were a couple of loop/rabbit ear $15 cheap indoor antennas, and with my old TV I was even able to pick up channel 6 PBS out of Tucson most of the time. So the signals are there, and I'm pretty sure if there was some way I could stick an indoor antenna outside I could probably get everything no problem. HOWEVER, as you noted correctly I would only want to do an outdoor install once, and also the better antenna I get the better chance I have that the attic install will be successful, which I think both lead me back to the 4228. However based on this if you think there's a cheaper alternative or two that could work based on my situation I would be willing to give one a try in my attic.
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post #11263 of 11272 Old 01-21-2015, 10:45 AM
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Thanks TomCat -- my thoughts with the hi VHF are, clearly in my attic I have trouble pulling in only those signals, so if I go with something OTHER than the 4228, what level of improvement do those tests on HDTVprimer give me? All I've used besides the Silver Sensor were a couple of loop/rabbit ear $15 cheap indoor antennas, and with my old TV I was even able to pick up channel 6 PBS out of Tucson most of the time. So the signals are there, and I'm pretty sure if there was some way I could stick an indoor antenna outside I could probably get everything no problem. HOWEVER, as you noted correctly I would only want to do an outdoor install once, and also the better antenna I get the better chance I have that the attic install will be successful, which I think both lead me back to the 4228. However based on this if you think there's a cheaper alternative or two that could work based on my situation I would be willing to give one a try in my attic.
You seem to be thinking this through properly.

The fact that signals are marginal with small UHF antennae makes me suspect that it would not take much improvement to solve your issues. If you are at 14 miles and are relatively unblocked for LOS, often an attic setup will be just fine. It could even be that ANY antenna also capable of Hi-V would solve these issues. I would avoid a yagi, because the booms are pretty big, and they are difficult to put in an attic.

But improvements are basically on a sliding scale. Putting a CM4228 up on the roof is somewhat at the other end of the scale, and I don't think you really need that.

The problem is that you never really will know what will actually work until you try it, because every location is different, especially in how much multipath there is. You can make general guesses about how deep you want to dig, which is sort of what I am trying to lead you to, or you can just go whole hog. Going whole hog has the best odds of success, but everyone has a budget and everyone has only so much time to devote to fixing this issue, so all of that is on that sliding scale too. But then the more aggressive you are in attacking this problem and the more assets you direct at it, the better your chances of success. Other that adding amps, you really can't do too much that will degrade performance; nearly everything will be an improvement.

I think putting an INTERNAL antenna outside might not be the best thing. I would rather place an EXTERNAL antenna inside. That is much easier.

FInd something that is UHF-VHF and fits your budget, and just give it a try, in the attic. Use the guidelines we have given you to make informed decisions regarding how you approach this (the HDTVPrimer stuff will give you a general idea what antennae might be best for your situation, for instance), and be sure you can return an antenna that might turn out to not be as effective as hoped. Or, just spend the dough, get the CM4228, put that in, and expect a good outcome.

I always suggest placing an FM trap in line also, as there are 18 powerful FM stations coming from S. Mt, and while they are not at the same frequency as TV, they can still interfere by swamping the AGC in the tuner. I get signal quality 5 clicks higher with the FM trap, which is an $8 item from RatShack.

Keep us posted as to how things go.

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post #11264 of 11272 Old 01-21-2015, 11:16 AM
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You seem to be thinking this through properly.

The fact that signals are marginal with small UHF antennae makes me suspect that it would not take much improvement to solve your issues. If you are at 14 miles and are relatively unblocked for LOS, often an attic setup will be just fine. It could even be that ANY antenna also capable of Hi-V would solve these issues. I would avoid a yagi, because the booms are pretty big, and they are difficult to put in an attic.

But improvements are basically on a sliding scale. Putting a CM4228 up on the roof is somewhat at the other end of the scale, and I don't think you really need that.

The problem is that you never really will know what will actually work until you try it, because every location is different, especially in how much multipath there is. You can make general guesses about how deep you want to dig, which is sort of what I am trying to lead you to, or you can just go whole hog. Going whole hog has the best odds of success, but everyone has a budget and everyone has only so much time to devote to fixing this issue, so all of that is on that sliding scale too. But then the more aggressive you are in attacking this problem and the more assets you direct at it, the better your chances of success. Other that adding amps, you really can't do too much that will degrade performance; nearly everything will be an improvement.

I think putting an INTERNAL antenna outside might not be the best thing. I would rather place an EXTERNAL antenna inside. That is much easier.

FInd something that is UHF-VHF and fits your budget, and just give it a try, in the attic. Use the guidelines we have given you to make informed decisions regarding how you approach this (the HDTVPrimer stuff will give you a general idea what antennae might be best for your situation, for instance), and be sure you can return an antenna that might turn out to not be as effective as hoped. Or, just spend the dough, get the CM4228, put that in, and expect a good outcome.

I always suggest placing an FM trap in line also, as there are 18 powerful FM stations coming from S. Mt, and while they are not at the same frequency as TV, they can still interfere by swamping the AGC in the tuner. I get signal quality 5 clicks higher with the FM trap, which is an $8 item from RatShack.

Keep us posted as to how things go.
Really helpful. And of course, I won't be putting an internal antenna outside, but was just trying to make the point that I think it's not signal strength that's an issue, simply that if I want to pick up hi vhf in my attic I'm going to need a higher quality antenna to do it. From an aesthetic and complexity standpoint it's probably worth the extra money to pay up front for a better antenna since it will save me lots of time to do the attic install. You bring up a good point regarding the FM trap do you think I should maybe just try that first with my current setup? I've never used one.

Thanks!
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post #11265 of 11272 Old 01-21-2015, 11:22 AM
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I stumbled across this thread today. I had forgotten about it. Regarding the local reception using an OTA antenna, here's my experience.

I live in the far north valley at approximately Carefree Highway and Central. I use a 4 bay UHF antenna and receive all of the Phoenix channels and most of the Tucson channels. I bought the eight bay CM4228 (at least I think that's the eight bay model) a year or so ago. Instead of improving my reception over the 4 bay antenna, it made things considerably worse. I ended up literally tearing it up and throwing it away. I've seen an eight bay UHF antenna on the MCM Electronics website which I may try.
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post #11266 of 11272 Old 01-21-2015, 12:04 PM
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I stumbled across this thread today. I had forgotten about it. Regarding the local reception using an OTA antenna, here's my experience.

I live in the far north valley at approximately Carefree Highway and Central. I use a 4 bay UHF antenna and receive all of the Phoenix channels and most of the Tucson channels. I bought the eight bay CM4228 (at least I think that's the eight bay model) a year or so ago. Instead of improving my reception over the 4 bay antenna, it made things considerably worse. I ended up literally tearing it up and throwing it away. I've seen an eight bay UHF antenna on the MCM Electronics website which I may try.
Al K -- a 4 bay antenna that pulls in VHF hi would be perfect for me, as I'm several miles closer than you to the towers. Any idea what model it is? Where did you install it? It would likely be cheaper than the 4228. I was a little concerned as HDTVprimer does say that the new 4228 is poorly engineered compared to the older model which was discontinued.
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post #11267 of 11272 Old 01-21-2015, 01:21 PM
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Really helpful. And of course, I won't be putting an internal antenna outside, but was just trying to make the point that I think it's not signal strength that's an issue, simply that if I want to pick up hi vhf in my attic I'm going to need a higher quality antenna to do it. From an aesthetic and complexity standpoint it's probably worth the extra money to pay up front for a better antenna since it will save me lots of time to do the attic install. You bring up a good point regarding the FM trap do you think I should maybe just try that first with my current setup? I've never used one.

Thanks!
The trap can only help, but I would not expect it to move you over the Mendoza line into good reception. You are probably right in that the signals are there, and that you simply need something that receives them efficiently.

There can only be four reasons why an antenna with a proven track record would not work in a particular situation:

1) It is not installed or aimed correctly
2) the distribution post-antenna is not working properly
3) there is a specific multipath lobe which just happens to fall on whatever off-axis lobe this antenna might have, which would be rare indeed
4) it is a defective item (you simply got a bad one).

In my opinion none of these reasons could ever invalidate how well this antenna has been proven to work in countless situations, or how much superior it is to most antennae in most situations, again, something there is real empirical evidence supporting. That is also supported by the response graphs at HDTVPrimer.com as well as my personal experience with perfect reception in a highly-reflective urban setting, even on 1999-era ATSC tuners.

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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post #11268 of 11272 Unread 01-23-2015, 09:02 PM
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I have a Channel Master 4-bay bowtie, probably CM4221 although there's no model number on it, in my attic about 10 miles from the transmitters. During the transition it got my area's high VHF channels, 7 and 12, well enough so it might work for you on 8, 10 and 12.

After the transition one station reverted to ch. 6 and the bowtie was useless for that, so I added a homemade twin lead folded dipole cut for ch. 6. I made a similar one for my sister in Tucson so she could get KVOA's repeater on ch. 4. Plans are here. Very inexpensive, especially if you have a length of old twin lead.

Before giving up on your rabbit ears, read How to use Rabbit Ears. It gives the proper element lengths for each channel and describes a trick with aluminum foil that makes the elements act like they're longer than they really are.

Make sure you're not trying to receive through stucco, either your walls or a neighbor's. As others have noted, stucco's chickenwire frame is very effective at blocking TV signals. I once got decent reception of several Phoenix channels in Casa Grande by aiming a Silver Sensor not at Phoenix but at a stucco house in the opposite direction.
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post #11269 of 11272 Unread 01-23-2015, 09:19 PM
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There was some question earlier about whether TV Fool takes terrain into consideration. It definitely does. In fact, if you click on any station in the list on the radar plot page, it opens a new page that shows a cutaway side view of the terrain between the transmitter and you.
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post #11270 of 11272 Unread Yesterday, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebo View Post
I have a Channel Master 4-bay bowtie, probably CM4221 although there's no model number on it, in my attic about 10 miles from the transmitters. During the transition it got my area's high VHF channels, 7 and 12, well enough so it might work for you on 8, 10 and 12.

After the transition one station reverted to ch. 6 and the bowtie was useless for that, so I added a homemade twin lead folded dipole cut for ch. 6. I made a similar one for my sister in Tucson so she could get KVOA's repeater on ch. 4. Plans are here. Very inexpensive, especially if you have a length of old twin lead.

Before giving up on your rabbit ears, read How to use Rabbit Ears. It gives the proper element lengths for each channel and describes a trick with aluminum foil that makes the elements act like they're longer than they really are.

Make sure you're not trying to receive through stucco, either your walls or a neighbor's. As others have noted, stucco's chickenwire frame is very effective at blocking TV signals. I once got decent reception of several Phoenix channels in Casa Grande by aiming a Silver Sensor not at Phoenix but at a stucco house in the opposite direction.
A common item packed with an AVR is a folded dipole to pick up FM (which typically works for VHF as well). You also can probably still get these at RatShack or monoprice.com for about a buck if you don't want to bother with making one. I am 12 miles directly east of S. Mt. and I have one taped to a west-facing window, and it is my only antenna, and works perfectly. I have built them in the past, and it is pretty easy.

I had my worst reception on 12 (which was UHF 49[?] at the time and still pretty good) so I cut it to that frequency in hopes of making it more sensitive to the one channel coming in at the lowest signal quality. Cutting to frequency is really a minor adjustment that may not be necessary as they are fairly wide-band to begin with; cutting "tunes" to a frequency, but the Q is large, so it has a minor effect on raising the level of the channel you tune to, and on lowering the level of everything else. I added the FM trap and a variable attenuator (also a cheap item) and followed it up with a distribution amp because I was feeding 5-6 outlets.

The attenuator can be helpful; if you have this in line and are watching a signal quality meter (many sets have them built in as does the OTA antenna section of DirecTV DVRs) start with attenuation at zero, raise the level slowly and see if the SQ goes up. If it goes up and then starts to go down as you raise it, leave the attenuator in and peak it to the highest level. If it just goes down, take the attenuator out. If it just goes up (unlikely) you need more attenuation; add a 6 dB pad and start over. If you are splitting the signal in your attic you want this just before any post-amplification. If no amp, place it in line just before the tuner.

Realize that a folded dipole only has a directionality of 3 dB over an omni antenna, so it will not work if there is significant multipath. But ATSC tuners are so good at actively equalizing out multipath these days that in many situations you can get perfect reception using a paper clip.

If you can get 7 with that antenna, it will likely work even better for 8/10/12. Assuming the gain pattern is similar to the 4228, that antenna starts to dip pretty bad in ch 7, so if this one does too, 8 and above should work well.

But I am not sure what you meant by "added". If you replaced the antenna, that is fine. But when you attach two antennae to the same downlead that must be done properly; you have to phase the antennae (position them carefully and a particular distance from each other) or they will actually turn your array into effectively an omni antenna, which can allow multipath to creep in. IOW, it can make things worse rather than better. Not as critical when the antennae are designed for different bands, but still a factor.

There's no place like 127.0.0.1

Last edited by TomCat; Yesterday at 06:29 AM.
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post #11271 of 11272 Unread Yesterday, 05:06 PM
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Bought the CM 4228 HD today at Fry's -- a little more than I could get it for online but I'm not stuck shipping something back that size if it didn't work. Haven't even mounted it on a J mount yet, just sat it up in the attic and everything's coming in. Hoping that mounting and aiming will strengthen the signal just a tad, haven't had any drops yet but it wouldn't hurt. Lost 7.1 but I can't say I really cared about that channel at all. All the VHF channels come in perfectly without adjusting so I think I'll be set with this. Thanks for all your help, I'll report back if I have any issues after/with mounting. Threw on an FM trap for good measure, too.
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post #11272 of 11272 Unread Today, 08:15 AM
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Excellent.

I have trouble with 7.1 also; according to TVFool (yep, they are doing terrain now) it is a good ~25 dB lower in power than main chs, and has an adjacent signal at about the same level, so it probably needs a lot of amplification, but that will blow out everything else. The quirks of reception are such that some might get it, but not likely in most situations.

I am not sure why 7.1 is even on S. Mt, other than the general advice is "point your antenna here". But if you get very far away, it is difficult to get. Cox gets them, but they are probably receiving them from the fiber broadcast ring or possibly they have good reception from the Fowler antenna farm at 69th and Van Buren.

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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