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post #661 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 06:00 PM
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Just a reminder to Read (and respect) the Rules in the first post. There is a thread for general HDTV discussion for the Norfolk DMA - the posts in this thread will be heavily moderated (to the degree that pdennant chooses).

Let's try and keep it productive.
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post #662 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 06:16 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by obxdiver
I think Vincent is trying to stir up sh** again. I see that VARTV quoted him in his post bashing Todd. Vincent must have edited his post to remove it...just not fast enough before VARTV quoted him stating that his post was un called for .
He must hold the record for number of post in 1 year on AVS forum.

No I think the record is held by CPanther. . I removed the post because VARTV found it offensive. And if you read back you will see that I didnt criticize the VT game at all. To me the colors were a little washed out but thats not exactly a PQ problem, probably lighting.
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post #663 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 07:03 PM
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DD2.0 again..I figured the National Championship game would have been worthy of 5.1.
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post #664 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 07:23 PM
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Has anyone else noticed that the audio is off by at least a full second? The announcer just called the touchdown catch while the ball was still in the air...
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post #665 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 07:28 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by TH3_FRB
Has anyone else noticed that the audio is off by at least a full second? The announcer just called the touchdown catch while the ball was still in the air...

Rewinded my HD TiVo to the touchdown catch... No problems here...

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post #666 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 07:53 PM
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I apparently just made post #666 on this thread...maybe that's why my audio is F'd up.
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post #667 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 07:56 PM
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Okay...ignore both my previous posts. I just realized that I was watching the OTA broadcast but hadn't changed my receiver from the cable box to the HD tuner so I had DD2.0 audio from my ccable DVR, which is why there was a synch problem also...DUH!
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post #668 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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An interesting experiment...I had 13-2 shut down for the game tonight (full bandwidth Vincent!). But the game looks a bit hairy when compared to last night's game. I guess there must be bandwidth constrictions further up the chain.

Peter Dennant
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post #669 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 08:25 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by pdennant
An interesting experiment...I had 13-2 shut down for the game tonight (full bandwidth Vincent!). But the game looks a bit hairy when compared to last night's game. I guess there must be bandwidth constrictions further up the chain.

I haven't been watching the game tonight, but that brings up a good point. Are there normally bandwidth issues upstream from you?

BTW, I just tuned it in during halftime and so far it looks excellent.
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post #670 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 08:58 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Todd
Are there normally bandwidth issues upstream from you?

If I may chime in here, this is a point that I've tried to make before. When we did the first Olympics from Salt Lake we eliminated the sub-channel and cranked up the bandwidth. At that time I observed that there was a point where adding bandwidth locally stopped providing improved picture quality, and this led me to believe that some of the extreme motion artifacts were incoming to us. This is only one factor that undercuts the whole "no-multicasting" argument, along with the advent of dynamic statistical multiplexing.
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post #671 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 09:05 PM
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After watching some of the game, I do think the quality is a little better than last night and much better than Saturday. I have seen a little pixelization here and there, but not as much.
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post #672 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Todd
Are there normally bandwidth issues upstream from you?

[Les...I'm always happy when you jump in]

Todd:

From our position at the end of the distribution chain, we have no way of knowing. Think about the entire chain and you'll start to understand that there can be bandwidth constrictions anywhere between the camera and your set. Everything downstream of the encoder in the camera is in the digital domain. Because the baseband bitsream for 1080i is 1.5 GB/s (similar bitrate applies for 720P), compression has to be employed all down the line. There are several, different compression engines at different points in the chain.

While there could be problems between the camera and the truck, it isn't the first place I would look. Therefore, the first suspect link would be between the truck and the network operations center. Bandwidth problems could be a function of the encoder in the mobile uplink, the satellite path or the decoder at the network (it is decoded to baseband here for network contribution). Then there is a duplicate link between network operations and the local affiliates (encoder, satellite path and decoder). The local affiliate decodes it back to baseband for local contribution. At WVEC we "Side Convert" 720p from the network into 1080i which involves, yet another digital conversion (don't get down on me about this...it's not my decision). The exception is Fox...that system, as I understand it, has a neat way of bit splicing into the ASI bitstream. Then the third path where the program is encoded to the ATSC 8-VSB standard. That bitsream gets sent,via microwave, to the DTV transmitter where it sent to your home for (at least) a third decoding session by your OTA receiver.

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post #673 of 6677 Old 01-04-2005, 10:34 PM
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Thanks for the explanation Peter!
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post #674 of 6677 Old 01-05-2005, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pdennant
An interesting experiment...I had 13-2 shut down for the game tonight (full bandwidth Vincent!). But the game looks a bit hairy when compared to last night's game. I guess there must be bandwidth constrictions further up the chain.

I thought it was much more vivid and the color was as saturated as FOXHD. Only saw the "graphics problems" but ABC seemed to speed them up so they got off the screen quicker. When that big ABC logo comes swishing on and off the screen it must be impossible to handle that bandwidth demand and keep it from getting blocky. I saw occasional pixelation on slow action after the play? Thats weird. Id say 95% of it looked great. We all really need mpeg4 dont we? LOL

Question: Is WVEC converting 720p to 1080i any worse than our recievers converting it to 1080i (i have mine converting everything to 1080i) or any worse than the conversion process would be in our 1080i RPTV's? Certainly WVEC's equipment is of higher quality than our consumer equipment and this is better for 1080i set owners?
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post #675 of 6677 Old 01-05-2005, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pdennant
[Les...I'm always happy when you jump in]

Todd:

From our position at the end of the distribution chain, we have no way of knowing. Think about the entire chain and you'll start to understand that there can be bandwidth constrictions anywhere between the camera and your set. Everything downstream of the encoder in the camera is in the digital domain. Because the baseband bitsream for 1080i is 1.5 GB/s (similar bitrate applies for 720P), compression has to be employed all down the line. There are several, different compression engines at different points in the chain.

While there could be problems between the camera and the truck, it isn't the first place I would look. Therefore, the first suspect link would be between the truck and the network operations center. Bandwidth problems could be a function of the encoder in the mobile uplink, the satellite path or the decoder at the network (it is decoded to baseband here for network contribution). Then there is a duplicate link between network operations and the local affiliates (encoder, satellite path and decoder). The local affiliate decodes it back to baseband for local contribution. At WVEC we "Side Convert" 720p from the network into 1080i which involves, yet another digital conversion (don't get down on me about this...it's not my decision). The exception is Fox...that system, as I understand it, has a neat way of bit splicing into the ASI bitstream. Then the third path where the program is encoded to the ATSC 8-VSB standard. That bitsream gets sent,via microwave, to the DTV transmitter where it sent to your home for (at least) a third decoding session by your OTA receiver.

Why is it necessary to have all of the "signal handling conversions, compressions and decodings?" Every time the original gets "handled and modified" would seem to me from my experience with electronic digital Industrial Process controls you end up with a degraded result and the opportunity of introducing unintended biases into the signal. The above description of the signal paths looks very clumsy and efficient. I realize I don't have a clue as to what is required. Just wondering.

Harold Jackson
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post #676 of 6677 Old 01-05-2005, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hjriver
Why is it necessary to have all of the "signal handling conversions, compressions and decodings?" Every time the original gets "handled and modified" would seem to me from my experience with electronic digital Industrial Process controls you end up with a degraded result and the opportunity of introducing unintended biases into the signal. The above description of the signal paths looks very clumsy and efficient. I realize I don't have a clue as to what is required. Just wondering.

Its like the fresh fish at your grocery store that has been frozen and thawed several times since they pulled it out of the ocean. Probably better not to ask since you can't do anything about it.
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post #677 of 6677 Old 01-05-2005, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Digitude
Its like the fresh fish at your grocery store that has been frozen and thawed several times since they pulled it out of the ocean. Probably better not to ask since you can't do anything about it.

the baseband bitsream for 1080i is 1.5 GB/s (similar bitrate applies for 720P), compression has to be employed all down the line.

I was just wondering why it has to be compressed at all or at least so many times. It would seem that given today's technology and wide use of fiber bitrate capacities would be able to handle the "original content" right to the point of distribution to the viewer. If the broadcasters get a better product then they can deliver a better product. Simple logic.

As in your example of the fish, the grocery store can't do anything about fish that are already screwed up.

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post #678 of 6677 Old 01-05-2005, 04:36 PM
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OK....now I have a question. I know that ABC broadcasts 720p, but is it possible that some of the cameras and such are 1080i being side-converted to 720p for broadcast. The reason I ask is that these artifacts to my knowledge are rarely seen on MNF, or on ESPN Sunday Night Football, both of which are probably using "first string" equipment. There have been reports that 1080i has problems with motion at times, one of the main reasons that ABC, ESPN, and FOX chose 720p. Maybe the college games were stretching the HD resources too thin......just a thought......
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post #679 of 6677 Old 01-05-2005, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by vurbano
Question: Is WVEC converting 720p to 1080i any worse than our receiver's converting it to 1080i (i have mine converting everything to 1080i) or any worse than the conversion process would be in our 1080i RPTV's? Certainly WVEC's equipment is of higher quality than our consumer equipment and this is better for 1080i set owners?

No. In fact that is one of the reasons that deision was made. Back then, most of the monitors had a native display of 1080 x 1920 (interlace). There also wasn't much 720p broadcast equipment available then. Belo made a decision that the conversion could be made more effectively - better PQ - at their stations employing a high grade "side converter."

Quote:
Originally posted by raycer
I know that ABC broadcasts 720p, but is it possible that some of the cameras and such are 1080i being side-converted to 720p for broadcast?

Probably not. All these large events are produced by trucks operated by independent companies. With Fox and ABC being 720p, most, if not all, now have the ability to easily switch between both formats.

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post #680 of 6677 Old 01-05-2005, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vurbano
Question: Is WVEC converting 720p to 1080i any worse than our recievers converting it to 1080i (i have mine converting everything to 1080i) or any worse than the conversion process would be in our 1080i RPTV's? Certainly WVEC's equipment is of higher quality than our consumer equipment and this is better for 1080i set owners?

Peter, please excuse me for stepping in and PLEASE let me and the rest of the world know if I'm completely off-base, but... I need to try this anyway...

That was exactly the logic used when WVEC-DT first started broadcasting their HD signal. As Peter explained it to me, the idea was that, with virtually all of the then-available HDTVs being CRT-based and displaying a native 1080i resolution, that their Mega$$$ side-converter would do a better job of it. (Made absolutely PERFECT sense to me, at the time.)

But since seeing ESPN-HD and Fox-HD, when they came on, I have been wondering if side-conversion really DOES give the advantages that we (myself included) thought it would. (see my post of 9/30/04 on this thread)

It almost seems to me (and my left-handed sense of logic) that, instead of an advantage to us viewers, it may add up to the sum of the disadvantages of both formats. (i.e. slightly lower resolution with better motion capture, converted to slightly higher resolution with poorer motion capture) Digitally, you can't put back what's been taken out. Each format has its own advantage. Combining them seems to cancel out both advantages.

...and that's without even considering the effects on the, "becoming more popular", fixed pixel displays (DLP, LCD & PDP), with a 720p native resolution.

Your comments, Peter...?

BTW, Peter... what did you buy?

John Chester

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post #681 of 6677 Old 01-05-2005, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hjriver
As in your example of the fish, the grocery store can't do anything about fish that are already screwed up.

Amen!!!

I LOVE THIS COMPARISON!!! IT'S PERFECT!!!

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post #682 of 6677 Old 01-05-2005, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by johncchester
But since seeing ESPN-HD and Fox-HD, when they came on, I have been wondering if side-conversion really DOES give the advantages that we (myself included) thought it would.

John:

Remember that ESPN and Fox are also johnny-come-latelys to the HD world. While ABC, CBS, NBC and their affiliates were moving to HD with first generation equipment, ESPN and Fox were in a wait and see mode. They had the advantage of designing their plants around much newer technologies. With no ROI from the DTV side of the house, not many companies will make the expenditure to replace the first generation equipment right now.

I would agree with you that the world has changed. Knowing that the display technology was changing rapidly (the world is going to 720p, flat panels in a hurry), last year I asked that this be reevaluated. I was informed that the decision stood...for the time being. I will be pursuing this again, sometime later this winter.

I bought a Panasonic CT-30WX54. A 30" CRT display. Knowing that the price of flat panel displays will be dropping substantially in the next 12 months, I didn't want to spend big buck$ on one right now. This one will move into the study at a later date.

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post #683 of 6677 Old 01-06-2005, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Critical mass is coming...
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DTV sales for November approaches 850,000 units
Jan 5, 2005 8:00 AM, HD Technology Update

Digital television (DTV) sales in November continued their strong advance with 843,784 units sold during the month to achieve total dollar sales exceeding $600 million, according to the latest factory-to-dealer sales figures from the Consumer Electronics Association.

In mid-December, 6.3 million DTV units had been sold for the year achieving more than $1.17 billion in sales, the association said.

CEA Market Research projected that 6.97 million DTV units were sold in 2004. In 2005, 10.77 million will be sold, 16.77 million in 2006, 23.25 million in 2007 and 27.05 in 2008.


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post #684 of 6677 Old 01-06-2005, 12:22 PM
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More lip-sync problems on CBS Monday night shows -- Still Standing and Listen Up! Haven't watched Raymond and Two and a Half Men yet...

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post #685 of 6677 Old 01-06-2005, 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by VARTV
More lip-sync problems on CBS Monday night shows -- Still Standing and Listen Up! Haven't watched Raymond and Two and a Half Men yet...

Hmmm, I didn't notice an issue with Still Standing not Raymond and 2.5 Men. Didn't watch Listen Up.
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post #686 of 6677 Old 01-06-2005, 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by VARTV
More lip-sync problems on CBS Monday night shows -- Still Standing and Listen Up! Haven't watched Raymond and Two and a Half Men yet...

I tuned into the SI Swimsuit show last night to see if it was in HD. Not only was it not....the top half of the picture was missing. I switched over and watched Lost on ABC. I checked back on NBC two or thee times but it wasn't until the end of the show that the entire picture came back (still no HD). Now if ever there were a show to benefit from HD......some NBC programming executives should be fired for shooting SI swimsuit in SD!
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post #687 of 6677 Old 01-06-2005, 12:54 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Todd
Hmmm, I didn't notice an issue with Still Standing not Raymond and 2.5 Men. Didn't watch Listen Up.

I did on my HD TiVo... almost all season long. I don't have any trouble with Raymond or 2.5 Men. Maybe my machine doesn't like those two shows...

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post #688 of 6677 Old 01-06-2005, 04:18 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Digitude
I tuned into the SI Swimsuit show last night to see if it was in HD. Not only was it not....the top half of the picture was missing.

Sorry about that, we had a problem with our NBC HD receiver.
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post #689 of 6677 Old 01-07-2005, 04:40 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Les Garrenton
Sorry about that, we had a problem with our NBC HD receiver.

I'm curious....why do the commercials come through okay?
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post #690 of 6677 Old 01-07-2005, 07:38 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Digitude
I'm curious....why do the commercials come through okay?

Well if they were local commercials then they would have been coming from an entirely different source than the affected HD receiver. If they were NBC commercials then I have no idea. I'm not aware of any internal operation of the receiver that would account for that.
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