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post #11881 of 11903 Old 10-04-2014, 06:39 AM
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You have a very, very, very weak signal from 9 along with an adjacent channel 10 calculated to be about 45 dB stronger. You'll need the gain and directionality of something like that big AntennaCraft to improve the signal level of 9 while rejecting the signal from 10 from that direction. Numbers say it might work, but I'd estimate that reliability over the long term will be variable.

I'd also suggest a medium gain, high-input pre-amp for VHF-only with both low and high-pass filters on its input so that it only gets the high-VHF band into the amp. This will be more complicated, but getting the large antenna up in the air and checking reception would be recommended as a first step.
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post #11882 of 11903 Old 10-04-2014, 10:23 AM
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You have a very, very, very weak signal from 9 along with an adjacent channel 10 calculated to be about 45 dB stronger. You'll need the gain and directionality of something like that big AntennaCraft to improve the signal level of 9 while rejecting the signal from 10 from that direction. Numbers say it might work, but I'd estimate that reliability over the long term will be variable.

I'd also suggest a medium gain, high-input pre-amp for VHF-only with both low and high-pass filters on its input so that it only gets the high-VHF band into the amp. This will be more complicated, but getting the large antenna up in the air and checking reception would be recommended as a first step.
Thank you for the reply, and your understandable technical detail of this challenge. One quick thought is I think I have read about singe channel antennas. Do they make such a thing as a channel 9 antenna, and would it be a fit for this application? The thought being to reduce the delta between the week channel 9, and the strong 45db channel 10 that you mentioned? I really do not need any other VHF channels, and desire the best solution to get my weekly dose of hockey. That has been the hardest thing for me since cutting the Comcast cable a year ago. Withdraw from hockey. The Comcast monopoly strangle hold on sports.

If I can't do any better with a single channel (9) antenna system (if they even make one), then I will get a one of the big high-VHF band antennas, and hire someone to put it up. I will post a follow up to this thread when I have some additional data. I know that there are others that will appreciate your shared knowledge.

Thanks again to all that replied!

Brian
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post #11883 of 11903 Old 10-04-2014, 11:02 AM
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A cut-for-9 antenna would still pick up channel 10 strongly straight ahead, but what's important is the differential between 9 straight ahead and 10 off towards the rear. Unfortunately, Antennacraft, the only remaining maker of a large 7-13 antenna, doesn't publish any polar patters for their antennas and I don't recall having seen any done by the enthusiast community.

It would likely be possible to come up with a two-antenna array that creates a null in the direction of the channel 10 signal, but that projects is over my head. Someone would probably have to model the antennas and come up with an arrangement that maximizes channel 9 forward gain while putting the channel 10 signal in a null.
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post #11884 of 11903 Old 10-04-2014, 12:35 PM
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Moved to Detroit local reception thread

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #11885 of 11903 Old 10-04-2014, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bksphoto View Post
Thank you for the reply, and your understandable technical detail of this challenge. One quick thought is I think I have read about singe channel antennas. Do they make such a thing as a channel 9 antenna, and would it be a fit for this application? The thought being to reduce the delta between the week channel 9, and the strong 45db channel 10 that you mentioned? I really do not need any other VHF channels, and desire the best solution to get my weekly dose of hockey. That has been the hardest thing for me since cutting the Comcast cable a year ago. Withdraw from hockey. The Comcast monopoly strangle hold on sports.

If I can't do any better with a single channel (9) antenna system (if they even make one), then I will get a one of the big high-VHF band antennas, and hire someone to put it up. I will post a follow up to this thread when I have some additional data. I know that there are others that will appreciate your shared knowledge.

Thanks again to all that replied!

Brian

Your strong channel 10 and your weak channel 9 are 125 degrees apart. Even without knowing the pattern of the Y-10-7-13 it is not unreasonable to think that it can knock down channel 10 by 20 dB when you're pointed at channel 9. I don't think adjacent channel interference would be your main concern. I think "Is the signal strong enough?" and "Will it be reliable enough to watch?" are bigger concerns. I don't think the even weaker co-channel WWTV opposite in direction from CBET would be any issue at all.
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post #11886 of 11903 Old 10-04-2014, 01:50 PM
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Based on measurements by user <tripelo>, analysis for A-C Y10-7-13 can be found here (see chart below):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/logyagi/y10713

F/B Ratio on Ch10 is only about 13 dB. [W-G YA-1713 isn't any better.]

==============================================
ATSC A/74 "Guidelines" established 33 dB U/D (Undesired/Desired) Ratio as the point at which a strong Adjacent DTV Channel would begin to cause noticeable interference. In FCC OET 2007 Tests of then available DTVs & STBs, the range of performance was between 33-40 dB U/D Ratio. Mar 2007 Specs for CECB's (Coupon Eligible Converter Boxes) REQUIRED meeting the original 33 dB U/D "Guidelines". In FCC OET Oct2007 Tests of then available CECBs, the range of performance was between 40-45 dB U/D Ratio, which SHOULD be "typical" for some 2007, many 2008 and most (all?) 2009+ DTVs & STBs.

If your Tuner provides interference rejection at the 40 dB U/D Ratio, and there is 13 dB rejection up front in the Antenna, then it will begin to notice visible interference when TVFool calculated receive signal levels are in vicinity of 53 dB U/D Ratio....and since you'll want to have another say 10+ dB of EXCESS signal level to deal with Multipath Fading, in "Theory" you should have only rare problems with 43+ dB U/D Ratio. Since TVFool calculates 26 dB U/D Ratio between Ch10 and Ch9, you have a Theoretical "Margin" of 17 dB....which "should" be adequate to deal with daily and seasonal variations....and might be marginal or deficient with older DTVs.

============================================
A SINGLE Antenna (smaller than a car) can't be built which will significantly attenuate the ADJACENT Channel with minimal degradation to the Desired Channel. TWO Identical Antennas can direct a NULL to the Rear via the Staggered Stacked Antenna Trick, but that won't work for Ch10 & Ch9, since they are NOT even close to 180-deg apart. And phasing two Horizontally Stacked Antennas to direct a NULL only works in a narrow FORWARD direction:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=963113

And of course, there are Hi-VHF Antennas with much higher F/B Ratios: [Sorry, fol. post only addressed Ch13 performance.]
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1139117

Although an LPDA (Log Periodic Dipole Array) doesn't provide as much Gain as a Yagi, the F/B & F/R performance tends to be EXCELLENT. About the only Hi-VHF (Only) LPDA still available is the (professional) Wade WL7-13/S:
http://www.wadeantenna.com/ius/resou...ighBandLog.pdf

And some COMBO Hi-VHF/UHF models from Winegard, such as:
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD7698_Specs.pdf
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD8200U.pdf
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD7084P.pdf
http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD7697P.pdf

Or consider an Outdoor DIY Project with even HIGHER F/B Ratio, such as fol. LPDA with 48-in Boom:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigz...a/hivhf73llpda

[img][/img]

Last edited by holl_ands; 10-04-2014 at 02:57 PM.
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post #11887 of 11903 Old 10-06-2014, 07:49 AM
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I have a Panasonic plasma, I tried a band scan to obtain WHNE for my area. What happened next puzzled me, I actually not onoly didn't get that station, but I lost WJBK ( I am in Westland)

and when I try to manually add in WJBK (digital 7) all I seem to get is WXYZ (virtual channel 7)----maybe the same thing is happening with this WHNE and WMYD..
has WJBK reduced power? am I doing my manual addition incorrectly?

any assistance would be appreciated
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post #11888 of 11903 Old 10-06-2014, 10:13 AM
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Try resetting your tuner back to scratch and start over with a full scan. Unplugging the antenna during an auto scan usually clears out the learned channel memory, but check your TV set and its manual for additional functions that might also to the job.

Tech support for Antennas Direct
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post #11889 of 11903 Old 10-06-2014, 10:28 AM
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I did do a full and complete scan, and WJBK was no where to be found, then I tried the manual ADD and ran into the issue with virtual/digital channel 7 issues




I am trying to get WHNE because they are doing some conference USA football games this year
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post #11890 of 11903 Old 10-06-2014, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bksphoto View Post
Thank you for the reply, and your understandable technical detail of this challenge. One quick thought is I think I have read about singe channel antennas. Do they make such a thing as a channel 9 antenna, and would it be a fit for this application? The thought being to reduce the delta between the week channel 9, and the strong 45db channel 10 that you mentioned? I really do not need any other VHF channels, and desire the best solution to get my weekly dose of hockey. That has been the hardest thing for me since cutting the Comcast cable a year ago. Withdraw from hockey. The Comcast monopoly strangle hold on sports.

If I can't do any better with a single channel (9) antenna system (if they even make one), then I will get a one of the big high-VHF band antennas, and hire someone to put it up. I will post a follow up to this thread when I have some additional data. I know that there are others that will appreciate your shared knowledge.

Thanks again to all that replied!

Brian
One thing to keep in mind before you spend any serious cash to make this work, is that with the new TV deal between Rogers and the NHL, Rogers holds all the rights and HNIC is only guaranteed to be on CBC through the 2017-18 season. Under terms of the deal, the sub-lease of Saturday night games from Rogers to CBC will be reevaluated at that time and may or may not continue.
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post #11891 of 11903 Old 10-14-2014, 12:22 PM
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Goodbye WADL??

Kevin Adell, who has built and run the station for more than two decades, is considering selling the spectrum – or airwaves – for WADL-TV in an upcoming auction by the FCC.
The opportunity for WADL, and other stations across the country to sell their airwaves, comes as at a time that cellular use is growing and over the air broadcast is “not growing,” he said.
“I would rather be at the forefront seeking an opportunity than missing an opportunity down the road,” said Adell. “I am going to sell at the top of the bell curve instead of the bottom. Most people when they are in business sell when there is nothing to sell.”
He stated that suitors including AT&T, Sprint and T-Mobile who may take part in the auction for the television spectrum. According to the FCC, the sale price for the spectrum for WADL-TV could reach $170 million at auction.


http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/10/...one-companies/

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.

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post #11892 of 11903 Old 10-14-2014, 03:30 PM
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It's sad that the OTA spectrum will be gobbled up by cellular companies but $170 million is hard to turn away I imagine.
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post #11893 of 11903 Old 10-20-2014, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Goodbye WADL??

Kevin Adell, who has built and run the station for more than two decades, is considering selling the spectrum – or airwaves – for WADL-TV in an upcoming auction by the FCC.
The opportunity for WADL, and other stations across the country to sell their airwaves, comes as at a time that cellular use is growing and over the air broadcast is “not growing,” he said.
“I would rather be at the forefront seeking an opportunity than missing an opportunity down the road,” said Adell. “I am going to sell at the top of the bell curve instead of the bottom. Most people when they are in business sell when there is nothing to sell.”
He stated that suitors including AT&T, Sprint and T-Mobile who may take part in the auction for the television spectrum. According to the FCC, the sale price for the spectrum for WADL-TV could reach $170 million at auction.


http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/10/...one-companies/
Bummer if it turns out to be true

Roger in DTW
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post #11894 of 11903 Old 10-21-2014, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Smile New subchannel on CBS 62 in 2015: Decades

http://www.tvweek.com/tvbizwire/2014...-time-capsule/

This article says that the CBS O&O stations (of which WWJ-62 is one), along with Weigel Broadcasting, will start a new channel called Decades in the 2nd quarter of 2015 -- "the ultimate TV time capsule".

Roger in DTW
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post #11895 of 11903 Old 10-22-2014, 03:44 PM
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Bummer if it turns out to be true
Eh, not really. WADL has some of the worst programming in the Detroit market. Even Antenna TV has gone down a bit in the last year or so.

As much as I think very negatively about this new spectrum grab for over-priced cell phone data, WADL isn't something I'll miss very much.
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post #11896 of 11903 Old 10-27-2014, 03:30 PM
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If I heard this correctly, WDIV is pre-empting "Marry Me" and "About a Boy" tomorrow (Tue, 10/28). I kinda like "Marry Me," so I'll be swinging the antenna around to Toledo.

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post #11897 of 11903 Old 10-27-2014, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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If I heard this correctly, WDIV is pre-empting "Marry Me" and "About a Boy" tomorrow (Tue, 10/28). I kinda like "Marry Me," so I'll be swinging the antenna around to Toledo.
I think WADL will be airing them, for those who don't have access to Toledo.

Roger in DTW
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post #11898 of 11903 Old 11-02-2014, 07:14 AM
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Looks like we have our first-to-play-24-7-Christmas-music "Champion;" WCSX HD2 94.7-2 is on it. For those who like their Sunday morning Over Easy with some Bing Crosby..
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post #11899 of 11903 Old 11-02-2014, 07:58 PM
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Any thoughts on Comcast leaving Michigan if the TWC merger is approved?
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post #11900 of 11903 Old 11-03-2014, 07:47 AM
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Meet the new boss, Same as the old boss. We won't be fooled again!
Thanks to the Who.
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post #11901 of 11903 Old 11-08-2014, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Update on WHNE: while flipping around this Saturday afternoon, I see that 14.1 is displaying "No Signal", while 14.2 is carrying RetroTV, although the audio sync is off; the frame rate appears to be off as well. I would swear it was running between 10-15 fps; it's noticeably jerky.

Roger in DTW
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post #11902 of 11903 Old 11-17-2014, 11:54 AM
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14.1 is now showing the Soul of the South network. 14.2 is still Retro, though as above. 14.3 and .5 are the same.. all infomercials. 14.4 is a slate.

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post #11903 of 11903 Old 11-20-2014, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Now for the latest on WHNE-14: 14.1 is still Soul of the South, 14.3 and 14.5 are showing the same infomercials, 14.4 is now showing Tuff TV, but 14.2 went dark this evening at 6:30. Perhaps they are adjusting it, as the quality had been poor.

UPDATE: 14.2 was back an hour later, and the audio sync issues may have been resolved.

Roger in DTW

Last edited by rreini; 11-20-2014 at 05:44 PM.
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