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post #12271 of 12291 Old 01-18-2016, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tev9999 View Post
I am setting up to cut the cord this week - just waiting on my cable modem and TIVO Roamino. I set up an attic antenna and am getting solid Detroit stations, but I'm struggling with Channel 9. I'm on the western Warren/Sterling Heights border

TV Fool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...5134b8bfe2559f

I am using a Clearstream 2V. I went with this because it would fit in the attic but still give me an outdoor option if that failed. My attic is rather tight so a larger antenna would be difficult to impossible to aim. I just bolted it to some 2x4s so it is easy to rotate. I prefer the attic as it does not involve adding any more holes to the house, is convenient to existing cable runs, and I can access it through a closet with a step stool. Roof is standard asphalt shingles, one layer.

On my first test I was able to get a solid signal on channel 9 when I pointed it out a south facing window using a different TV, so I know some degree of signal is getting to me. When I moved it to the attic and hooked into the existing cable coax I can't get it on two other TVs - not even a weak signal.

I tried adding an RCA preamp which added a couple channels and stabilized others, but still nothing on 9.

The cable run is probably about 100 feet, all RG6 - never any issues with the cable TV setup. There is only one splitter to the two TVs. I have the antenna facing pretty much due south.

I am getting a solid HD signal on CICO (32.1) which appears to use the same transmission tower as CBET. I'm guessing their UHF signal can penetrate the roof that is blocking VHF.

Is there any hope of pulling in channel 9 with minimal setup changes, or should I just look at going outside with it? Thanks for any advice.
I dont know much about your particuliar antenna.

For me I tried different antennas and found this Winegard Amplified HDTV Outdoor Antenna FL6550A at costco online

It is designed for up to four tvs. Includes amplifier with their secret signal processing. I use the amp plugged into the wall outlet supplying all the power it needs. Can be plugged into a usb port also to power it. but the usb port may not have enough juice under demanding situations.

For me it works very well. It is designed to be mounted outside. The manufactuer states that inside mounting or attica installation can reduce the signal by 50 percent.

I use it indoors on three tv tuners. It is mounted on an inside wall of the master bedroom. It feeds two tv tuner boxes with a dvr and the tv on the other side of the wall in the living room.

For me receiving ch 9 depends allot on the weather and other conditions. Ch 9 and ch 2 at times can be problematic. For me to recieve most stations The antenna points in a south west direction.

When i have problems I just rotatate the antenna to a direction pointing due south. This generally resolves any ch 9 or ch 2 concerns. Again depends on weather and other factors.

Im sure if i mounted it outside it would perform much better. For me i think it perfoms well mounted inside. Not that big of a deal to rotate it slightly. I used a piece of the box cardboard to prevent the clamps teeth from bitting in and not allowing it to rotate easily. With the cardboard it rotated smoothly and stays positioned.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly. My guess is the attic installation. From what I have read attics can be tough. There is allot of factors at play. Antenna, type of antenna, amplified or not, sometime good sometimes amplified not so good, weather, trees, buildings, obstacles, etc, etc.

Don't give up. The amazing thing is there are many stations available and they seem to keep adding more.

I reduced my monthly entertainment cost greatly. With just switching to ota broadcast, purchasing two tv tuners with dvr capability. Expanding my dvd and bluray collection. With all the savings.

Funny, whats a commercial, been over a year since i have seen one.

Liv Rm, Mitz 73740 DLP, Pioneer SC 1222K AVR, Pioneer BDP 150, ATV G3, Harmony Smart Control, I Pad Air, Winegard FL6550A, F L R Cerwin Vega AT-12, Cen JBL EC-35, S R L JBL CST-56, S Backs Adv Mini, F Heights JBL E-10 Angled To Reflect Off Ceiling to MLP (Modified Atmos), MBed Rm, Mitz WD65413 R Proj HDMI to DVI, Sony BDP BX6202, 2 Home Worx HW180 STB OTA Tuners with 2TB DVR, J Tech Digital JTD4KAT0301SW 3 HDMI in 1 HDMI out Audio Extractor, Bose SR1 5.1 Sound Bar, Harmony 650
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post #12272 of 12291 Old 01-18-2016, 01:56 PM
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Thanks. I think I will try a temporary outdoor mast (aka a 2x4 ) tonight and see what happens. It worked in the window no more than 7' above ground. There are no trees to the south - just the neighbor's ranch house about 100' away. If it works solidly I'll look at a more permanent mount when the weather is nicer.

Other than the possibility of an out of market NFL game, is there anything else of interest in Toledo or other potential cities that would be worth going higher for? Since the back of the house faces south I might just be able to bolt it to the wall and be done with it.
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post #12273 of 12291 Old 01-18-2016, 06:42 PM
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I posted about this issue once before on TVFool but I figured there would be more people in this thread that may be able to help.

I live in Canton and am using a Antennas Direct DB4e with the VHF reflector kit. Signals are nearly always 100% on all stations, but on some days there are times where it will shoot down in 0 then back to 100%. Sometimes it will break up / skip then go back to 100%. I have it aimed in the direction which allows me to get all of the major Detroit networks and WADL and the Canadian stations CBET and CICO.

Someone on TVFool suggested that the issue could have to do with the different flight paths that the airplanes take on different days due to direction of the wind. It's not every day and sometimes it's very rare. Does anyone else have this issue? My antenna in outside but is partly facing directly into a wall because of the way my apartment is set up. If it was on a roof or in an attic I probably wouldn't have this issue.
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post #12274 of 12291 Old 01-18-2016, 08:37 PM
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My Tivo arrived early and is now hooked up. The signal strength meter should be a big help in tweaking things. I pulled the antenna out of the attic and it is sitting on my desk pointing out the window. Channel 9 is registering at 32 but it is not strong enough to show a picture. Most of the Detroit stations are in the mid 60s. Too cold to play around with it outside.

The aircraft thing seems like a long shot to me. Even on approach an aircraft is moving at 150+ MPH so it won't be in the line of site between transmitter and antenna for more than a second. It should also not be low enough except for the last minute or two of flight - but I suppose it could act as a reflector. You also have aircraft passing every couple of minutes during busy times so I would expect it would be somewhat repeatable.

You could check to see if there is a correlation. Just log the time that you get the dropout, then go to flightaware.com and see what aircraft were passing by at that time. They log GPS coordinates along with altitude. Altitude is above sea level so be sure to subtract 650 feet or so if you are comparing to transmitter height. http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KDTW
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post #12275 of 12291 Old 01-19-2016, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by skatingrocker17 View Post
Someone on TVFool suggested that the issue could have to do with the different flight paths that the airplanes take on different days due to direction of the wind. It's not every day and sometimes it's very rare.
I would hazard a guess that's accurate. If you're pointing more toward downtown than Southfield, then you're aiming your antenna perpendicular to the 9R and 9L runway approach vectors. You don't see an issue often because the wind's not hard out of the east that often. I'm guessing you have issues the same days I have planes turning for final over MY house. The problem MIGHT go away if you point directly at Southfield, though you'd possibly lose CBET. Or you could do away with the reflector and combine that antenna with a VHF-Hi pointed at CBET. You'd still get WJBK and you'd still see breakups on WJBK. But everybody else should be solid.

I lived in Northern Kentucky on a hill about a mile south of CVG. Planes came over my house when the wind was out of the north. With that happening every three minutes during high traffic times, watching TV was next to impossible. Solved the issue with a multi-antenna array that gave a narrow enough beam to ignore the reflections. Bonus was that it brought in the Dayton stations, too. Back then, you couldn't always count on the Cincinnati stations to "switch on" the HD during HD programming. It was nice to have the backups.

The planes are probably the best explanation, but not the only one. As you said, you ARE working from an attic, which is a multipath nightmare to begin with. Anything else in the atmosphere that could be attenuating the signal is only made worse by an attic mount. However, that probably wouldn't make for every Detroit station experiencing 100% dropouts at the same time as your post indicates. Depending on the day and weather conditions, it could be something as simple as a bad coax connection or fitting. The center conductor contracts and expands with the temperatures. If you have one that's a bit short or corroded, the changing temps could cause a bad connection. I ruled that out since you seem to indicate that it happens year-round.

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Originally Posted by tev9999 View Post
My Tivo arrived early and is now hooked up. The signal strength meter should be a big help in tweaking things.
Just keep in mind that it's a signal quality meter, not a true signal strength meter. All those meters show is how much error correction is being applied. A strong signal with a very strong reflection will read in the 30s just as a very distant or weak signal would.
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Last edited by DrDon; 01-19-2016 at 07:03 AM.
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post #12276 of 12291 Old 01-20-2016, 10:21 AM
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I noticed last night while flipping through the channels that W48AV has moved in virtual channel 23.

Also, what's the point in WHNE 14.1? The same static image has been displayed since I moved to Michigan back in May of 2015. I've received the channel a few times in Ohio as well.
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post #12277 of 12291 Old 01-20-2016, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by skatingrocker17 View Post
I noticed last night while flipping through the channels that W48AV has moved in virtual channel 23.

Also, what's the point in WHNE 14.1? The same static image has been displayed since I moved to Michigan back in May of 2015. I've received the channel a few times in Ohio as well.
For a time, 14.1 used to be the Soul of the South network, but after that went bankrupt, it's just been that image.
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Roger in DTW
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post #12278 of 12291 Old 01-22-2016, 01:43 PM
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Right now with my Antennas Direct C2V I can easily get WNWO and WGTE if I pointed it south. I managed to get the RF data from WTOL, WTVG and WUPW inserted, but they never show up no matter how hard I've tried. How can I get these three stations to come in without taking it outdoors or placing it in the non-accessible attic?
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post #12279 of 12291 Old 01-23-2016, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Burb View Post
Right now with my Antennas Direct C2V I can easily get WNWO and WGTE if I pointed it south. I managed to get the RF data from WTOL, WTVG and WUPW inserted, but they never show up no matter how hard I've tried. How can I get these three stations to come in without taking it outdoors or placing it in the non-accessible attic?
you should post that question at the Michigan buzz board for best results
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post #12280 of 12291 Old 01-23-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Burb View Post
Right now with my Antennas Direct C2V I can easily get WNWO and WGTE if I pointed it south. I managed to get the RF data from WTOL, WTVG and WUPW inserted, but they never show up no matter how hard I've tried. How can I get these three stations to come in without taking it outdoors or placing it in the non-accessible attic?
Short answer? You can't. Go up or go outside. Not enough signal or way too much multipath. The error count is too high for a picture, either way, or you'd get one.

You COULD try more antenna indoors. But that's impractical.

Two of the three are VHF and your antenna doesn't have enough aluminum for that. At least not indoors. You'll need more than a basic dipole. WUPW is west of WNWO. I have fits keeping it locked in and I've got a huge yagi on a roof mount oddly pointed about 20 degrees west of where the transmitter actually is. WTOL and WTVG stay locked for me (also have a large VHF-Hi antenna on the same mast) anywhere from 100 to 240 degrees. WGTE stays locked from about 140 through 240. WNWO from about 120 - 180. WUPW from 180 - 184 and that's it.

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post #12281 of 12291 Old 01-25-2016, 07:29 AM
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In a somewhat related discussion I'm nearby in Allen Park and my idea of getting 100% of the Toledo and Detroit locals with a roof mounted 8bay (CM4228) almost worked perfectly. The problem was I was getting too much multipath on the Detroit stations (while all of the Toledo stations were rock solid). I finally had to give up and turn the antenna to face the Detroit stations (which lost all but one of the Toledo stations). I now wish I would have opted for a lower power yagi-style antenna for just Detroit instead of a bay antenna because I do feel the multipath issues I still experience from time to time are a result of the front/back ratio of the antenna and the fact that I'm too close to them.

My new plan is to get a small yagi for Detroit area and the 8-bay for Toledo by using signal inserters but I want to wait to see what happens to the spectrum (UHF hi clear out for telecommunications) before I invest money in RF insertion hardware.
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post #12282 of 12291 Old 01-25-2016, 07:58 AM
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I remember trying that. Of course, I'm in Novi, so it's different. Combining the two yagis just amplified the multipath and resulted in the loss of some stations from both cities. Gave up and went with a rotor.

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post #12283 of 12291 Old 01-25-2016, 10:02 AM
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I remember trying that. Of course, I'm in Novi, so it's different. Combining the two yagis just amplified the multipath and resulted in the loss of some stations from both cities. Gave up and went with a rotor.
Thinking more of a combiner like the old channel master jointennas (not made any more) where signals are attenuated from one antenna and inserted from the other.....A guy in Slovakia makes them relatively cheaply:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/121855781698
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post #12284 of 12291 Old 01-26-2016, 11:10 AM
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RF Amplifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Burb View Post
Right now with my Antennas Direct C2V I can easily get WNWO and WGTE if I pointed it south. I managed to get the RF data from WTOL, WTVG and WUPW inserted, but they never show up no matter how hard I've tried. How can I get these three stations to come in without taking it outdoors or placing it in the non-accessible attic?
You may want to try a RF amplifier. I purchased an Electroline EDA-400 to improve the signal strength of fringe or low power TV stations. As an example with a TiVo TCD746320 DVR, wired to an attic mounted GE 24792 antenna, the relative signal strength on a distant station (TVO 32.1) went from 35 to 43 which eliminated TV pixelization. This amplifier also helped to increase the signal strength resulting from the loss associated with splitters (typically -3.5 dB / port for a two way). And, in some cases will provide for a substitute for a splitter. A nice feature of this amplifier is that it can be phantom powered. In other words one of the RF outputs is shared with the included 15VDC power supply on the same coaxial cable. You will need the EDA-1CF Remote Power Inserter (not provided) to isolate the two. This allows the amplifier to be located in an area that makes powering difficult to obtain. What's interesting, is that the blister package that the amplifier / wall wart comes in, has a cavity for the EDA-1CF Remote Power Inserter, but it's not included. A major concern is that amplifiers can have too much gain and can overload TV / DVR inputs caused by nearby TV stations. This amplifier did not do this.

As a precaution, a 75 ohm terminator should be used on all unused ports.

I am very pleased with its performance and it does the job well...

My only complaint, is that Electoline's technical support is not very helpful.

SlotKar
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post #12285 of 12291 Old 01-26-2016, 12:08 PM
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Moving over to the cable side of things....Does anyone here have any idea of when Comcast Xfinity will be rolling out their 4K boxes? On a related note , I have seen postings that around the country, they are switching from MPEG2 to MPEG 4 (also known as H.264) which will free up bandwidth. any idea on that implementation?
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post #12286 of 12291 Old 01-27-2016, 06:40 AM
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Moving over to the cable side of things....Does anyone here have any idea of when Comcast Xfinity will be rolling out their 4K boxes? On a related note , I have seen postings that around the country, they are switching from MPEG2 to MPEG 4 (also known as H.264) which will free up bandwidth. any idea on that implementation?
They aren't using MPEG4 already? I know DirecTV and Dish Network having been using it for a long time now, probably almost 10 years. It makes sense that they would switch to MPEG4 compression before cable companies due to their bandwidth limitations, especially back then when they were trying to including all of the new HD channels. I believe they both launched another satellite into the sky around then for that reason.
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post #12287 of 12291 Old 01-30-2016, 09:22 AM
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On February 1st, Antenna TV is returning to the Detroit market (WMYD 20.2).

broadcastingcable.com/news/local-tv/wmyd-detroit-air-digital-multicast-network-antenna-tv/146728

No word yet from WMYD regarding the current occupier of 20.2, Cozi TV.
I'm hearing reports that COZI TV will be moving from WMYD over to WADL 38.4 on February 1st. What network will WADL drop (The Word Network will likely move to another sub) and how long will COZI stay on the air until since WADL is being sold as part of the spectrum auction? Seems pointless for WADL to add another network/sub at this point unless COZI worked out a deal with WADL as they continue to find a more suitable station.

Newer is not always better.
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post #12288 of 12291 Old 01-31-2016, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm hearing reports that COZI TV will be moving from WMYD over to WADL 38.4 on February 1st. What network will WADL drop (The Word Network will likely move to another sub) and how long will COZI stay on the air until since WADL is being sold as part of the spectrum auction? Seems pointless for WADL to add another network/sub at this point unless COZI worked out a deal with WADL as they continue to find a more suitable station.
I believe you are right about COZI moving to 38.4. The TV Guide data for my EyeTV DVR software is showing COZI programming as of February 2 at 7 PM. Other channels' program data have not been updated yet; 20.2 is still showing COZI, and the other channels on 38 are still showing their current programming. We'll see what happens in the next day or so

Roger in DTW
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post #12289 of 12291 Old 01-31-2016, 11:27 AM
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I believe you are right about COZI moving to 38.4. The TV Guide data for my EyeTV DVR software is showing COZI programming as of February 2 at 7 PM. Other channels' program data have not been updated yet; 20.2 is still showing COZI, and the other channels on 38 are still showing their current programming. We'll see what happens in the next day or so
Interestingly, I saw a crawl at the bottom of the screen alerting viewers that COZI will be moving to 38.4 in Detroit. The crawl was obviously inserted by the network as I saw it on my local COZI affiliate, WEWS. I don't think WMYD would direct viewers to WADL. If anything, they may put up a slide or crawl informing viewers that the station has terminated it's contract with the network. That is, if they don't have a replacement network for that subchannel.

Newer is not always better.
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post #12290 of 12291 Old 01-31-2016, 04:47 PM
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Glad its surviving.....gotta love A-team/Magnum PI. According to Wikipedia The World Network is the one that is leaving WADL....since Adell owns that station an eyebrow should go up on that news. I'm guessing WADL(Adell) has a trick up their sleeve after they cash in their chips with the auction and that most of the station will survive but at a lower RF.
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post #12291 of 12291 Old Yesterday, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Confirming that COZI is now on WADL 38.4 and that none of its other channels have changed, and that Antenna TV is now on WMYD 20.2.

Roger in DTW
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