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post #12451 of 12478 Old 02-09-2017, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by skatingrocker17 View Post
I always wondered why WWJ doesn't broadcast from that tower considering their studio is right beside it. But WKBD and WPXD do.
You have to put the transmitter where the FCC will LET you put the transmitter. A mile here, a mile there and suddenly, you're an interference problem for some other station. If I sound a bit jaded, I am. Relocating WYCD's transmitter to 11 mile would solve so many signal issues, but there's only a tiny triangle where the FCC will allow us to hang it and the 11 mile tower is a mile and a half too far south. Trip could probably tell you in an instant who'd be affected if WWJ-TV moved the transmitter to 11 mile. Looking at his spreadsheet, I'm guessing Lima, OH. Grand Rapids also has a 44. So, moving WWJ south and west could impact both of those. I dunno. It may be that 8 mile simply provides better coverage to all areas than 11 mile does.

Even if the FCC has no issue, there's a big "why bother" factor. Signal's fine, most places. Expense wouldn't be much different except for the gasoline used by the engineering department. IIRC, WWJ's backup IS on the 11-mile tower. And there's a huge advantage in having a separately-located backup. In fact, CBS has put together a central FM backup site on WDZH's tower. Most of the stations could only run temporarily and there may be other maximum power and HAAT restrictions. Having your backup on the same tower isn't much good if that tower comes down.

I always thought it'd be smart to put the whole CBS operation there on 11 mile instead of leasing the huge radio plant on American Drive. Without a news department, you can fire a cannon through half of WWJ and not hit anything. There's room for everybody on property CBS owns. Nope. From a bookeeping/tax standpoint, it's apparently better the way they're doing it. That, or they've always known they were going to spin off radio and having TV and having radio in the same house with TV would have possibly meant moving radio back out, again.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.

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post #12452 of 12478 Old 02-09-2017, 03:03 PM
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To add to what DrDon is saying (and because he invoked my name), often stations are pretty well boxed-in at their present locations. Yes, a station can move to another tower, but it may require a drop in power, or a directional antenna, or something else unsavory that would make you as a station engineer wonder if it's really worthwhile.

FM is particularly messy in my eye, doing everything by distance and contour calculations. FM stations can move even if they're boxed in like DrDon says, but as soon as you move out of the "distance protected" space, suddenly you have to do a contour analysis (I forget if the appropriate rule is 73.207 or 73.215 off-hand; pre-1964 short-spaced stations I think are 73.213) and start coming up with screwy directional patterns and other ways of managing things.

In TV you actually do a path-loss type analysis where signal is plotted to individual sample points. (I would know; the software for that is my day job at the FCC.) So you wind up having to deal with antenna patterns no matter what, which is a bit of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it often means that small moves don't matter very much, because generally the path to each sample point isn't very different. On the other hand, and this is especially true in rougher terrain, it also means that tiny moves can create big changes if those moves change the path a lot because of line-of-sight differences.

But the bigger thing that's better in TV is that you can agree to accept interference as predicted by those analyses, something which I don't think FM can do. If you have stations who are willing to negotiate, it means often there's more latitude to move around as a result.

... I think I started rambling.

In any event, the repacking may result in stations realigning where they're transmitting from. The FCC is encouraging stations to share facilities to reduce the cost of the repack, so if it turns out that moving WWJ and WKBD to a common antenna at the WWJ studio is cheaper, it may very well happen. We won't know for certain what is happening for some time to come, though.

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post #12453 of 12478 Old 03-07-2017, 03:52 PM
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I contacted WTVS, and I was told that they'd move from channel 43 to channel 20 in the repacking.
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post #12454 of 12478 Old 03-07-2017, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
I contacted WTVS, and I was told that they'd move from channel 43 to channel 20 in the repacking.
Interesting... which means WHNE (also on RF 20) will either go dark or be pushed somewhere else.
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post #12455 of 12478 Old 03-09-2017, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
You have to put the transmitter where the FCC will LET you put the transmitter. A mile here, a mile there and suddenly, you're an interference problem for some other station. If I sound a bit jaded, I am. Relocating WYCD's transmitter to 11 mile would solve so many signal issues, but there's only a tiny triangle where the FCC will allow us to hang it and the 11 mile tower is a mile and a half too far south. Trip could probably tell you in an instant who'd be affected if WWJ-TV moved the transmitter to 11 mile. Looking at his spreadsheet, I'm guessing Lima, OH. Grand Rapids also has a 44. So, moving WWJ south and west could impact both of those. I dunno. It may be that 8 mile simply provides better coverage to all areas than 11 mile does.

Even if the FCC has no issue, there's a big "why bother" factor. Signal's fine, most places. Expense wouldn't be much different except for the gasoline used by the engineering department. IIRC, WWJ's backup IS on the 11-mile tower. And there's a huge advantage in having a separately-located backup. In fact, CBS has put together a central FM backup site on WDZH's tower. Most of the stations could only run temporarily and there may be other maximum power and HAAT restrictions. Having your backup on the same tower isn't much good if that tower comes down.

I always thought it'd be smart to put the whole CBS operation there on 11 mile instead of leasing the huge radio plant on American Drive. Without a news department, you can fire a cannon through half of WWJ and not hit anything. There's room for everybody on property CBS owns. Nope. From a bookeeping/tax standpoint, it's apparently better the way they're doing it. That, or they've always known they were going to spin off radio and having TV and having radio in the same house with TV would have possibly meant moving radio back out, again.
where is the wycd tower?

how can the 11 mile tower be too far "south" if the current tower is on 8 mile?

typo?
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post #12456 of 12478 Old 03-09-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by billmich View Post
where is the wycd tower?
Greater Media studio site.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #12457 of 12478 Old 03-11-2017, 06:35 PM
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It's interesting to try to speculate about the future of WXYZ.

It had been announced that Scripps had not participated in the spectrum auction, yet no channel reassignment has been stated for WXYZ, who cannot stay on channel 41.

I plotted out the assignments for the stations in the Detroit market and other markets close enough to represent a conflict with the Detroit Market.

no station is shown moving to 14, which is being vacated by WKBD moving to 34. WCMH is 14 in Columbus, but WKBD coexisted with it.

What is interesting is that WHIO Dayton is on 41 going to 33, and WKBN Youngstown also on 41 going to 33. Since WHIO and WKBN had been sharing channel 41 with WXYZ, I wonder if WXYZ could land there, too. It would seem to work with other Detroit stations, as it would produce a "four-card straight" on channels 31, 32, 33 and 34.

I guess Scripps could put both 7.1 and 20.1 on WMYD's transmitter, but I don't want to lose Laff, Escape and Bounce.

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post #12458 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by itsthemultipath! View Post
It's interesting to try to speculate about the future of WXYZ.

It had been announced that Scripps had not participated in the spectrum auction, yet no channel reassignment has been stated for WXYZ, who cannot stay on channel 41.

I plotted out the assignments for the stations in the Detroit market and other markets close enough to represent a conflict with the Detroit Market.

no station is shown moving to 14, which is being vacated by WKBD moving to 34. WCMH is 14 in Columbus, but WKBD coexisted with it.

What is interesting is that WHIO Dayton is on 41 going to 33, and WKBN Youngstown also on 41 going to 33. Since WHIO and WKBN had been sharing channel 41 with WXYZ, I wonder if WXYZ could land there, too. It would seem to work with other Detroit stations, as it would produce a "four-card straight" on channels 31, 32, 33 and 34.

I guess Scripps could put both 7.1 and 20.1 on WMYD's transmitter, but I don't want to lose Laff, Escape and Bounce.
Based on what we know so far, if WXYZ is to remain on UHF, the only channels still available for it to move to are 14 and 36.

FYI... WKBN is not going to 33. WFMJ is going to 33. And interestingly, WXYZ cannot be co-channel with WFMJ according to the repack checker... https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...ch6=&ch7=&ch8=

Last edited by Andrew K; 03-12-2017 at 05:43 AM.
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post #12459 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 10:19 AM
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Yeah, I discovered that mistake a few hours after I posted it (WKBN).

I suspect that some assignments forbidden by "A few hundred yards" might get waived through.

Then again, would WXYZ on 33 pass that repack checker if it were to be moved to the WKBD candleabra (It's a little further westward)?
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post #12460 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 12:47 PM
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What you see in the Repack Checker on RabbitEars is what was used for the repack. There were no waivers to what you see there. The channel assignment system took those as hard limitations.

- Trip
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post #12461 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 12:53 PM
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So is WXYZ going dark? (I had thought that Scripps had auctioned nothing).
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post #12462 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 12:57 PM
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Nope. Their channel has not yet been announced.

- Trip

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post #12463 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 01:02 PM
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Bigger question:

What about Canada. Will there be new channels for CICO32, CFTV, and others?
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post #12464 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by itsthemultipath! View Post
Bigger question:

What about Canada. Will there be new channels for CICO32, CFTV, and others?
And what about CKCO's analog stick at Sarnia (RF42)?

James Calvin Woods - Son of Verta Jane Holland
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post #12465 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 03:28 PM
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Canada's stations will all receive new assignments, either on a current channel or a newly assigned channel.

- Trip

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post #12466 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 03:41 PM
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Canada's stations will all receive new assignments, either on a current channel or a newly assigned channel.

- Trip
And those Canadian stations still in analog, will they now be forced to go digital?

James Calvin Woods - Son of Verta Jane Holland
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post #12467 of 12478 Old 03-12-2017, 05:00 PM
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They will be required to move to new channels. Those channels were assigned on the assumption they were converting to digital, but there's nothing strictly requiring them to convert when they move, as far as I know.

- Trip

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post #12468 of 12478 Old 03-13-2017, 10:20 AM
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WXYZ is moving to channel 25. I wonder how that's possible with WUPW being adjacent on 26.
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post #12469 of 12478 Old 03-13-2017, 11:24 AM
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I've heard very little about Canada in this process. I don't even know if Canada will stop using Band V for television. Would a powerful DTV transmitter (e.g., Channel 51 at Alvinston, ON) cause chaos stateside if a strong tropo opening were going (I would assume so).

Even the relatively weak mobile service transmitters on the Wisconsin and Illinois shorelines wreak havoc on phone users along the Lake Michigan shoreline in Upper Michigan on a warm humid day (our phones would show five bars and Central time, but we couldn't place a call, because the GPS figures carried by our handsets would cause our connection to be denied.)
Meanwhile, I could watch Willis Tower DTV 300+ mile path on a handheld set with an unfurled jumbo paper clip for an antenna!
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post #12470 of 12478 Old 03-14-2017, 11:56 AM
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I was checking one of the other threads in the forum, this case Minneapolis, MN, and found the below link that lists some of the assignments. Of course, this isn't official but great for speculation!

http://www.nab.org/repacking/clearinghouse.asp
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post #12471 of 12478 Old 03-14-2017, 02:51 PM
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Thanks for that. Of note (so far)...

WDIV 45--->32
WKBD 14--->34
WMYD 21--->31
WWJ ..44--->21
WXYZ 41--->25

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.

Last edited by DrDon; 03-14-2017 at 04:09 PM.
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post #12472 of 12478 Old 04-17-2017, 09:50 AM
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Antenna/DTV Signal Woes

I guess this is where this kind of question goes...

For starters: Here's the TVFool results: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a42ef8be46d6

We have a Winegard HD7078P at about 30' off the ground. (Elevation is approx. 960 feet AMSL.)

I also have a Winegard Flatwave Amped tacked-up in the SE corner of the family room, which is the SE corner of the house.

As you'll see from the TVFool results, there's a cluster of stations at about ±135°. Those are the stations in which we're most interested.

Here's the problem: Whenever the wind blows, most of those stations go right to pieces with the HD7078P hooked up. Even in the wintertime when the big old maple that is right on that bearing, and only 75' away or so, is leafless. (There's another, smaller maple at about 145°, too.) Switch to the Flatwave Amped and the problem goes away.

"What's the problem?" you may ask. "Just use the Flatwave." Yeah, except Canadian channel 9 doesn't show up. Nor, I believe, does PBS channel 28, which we get off the back-side of the rooftop yagi.

Now I know this antenna/propagation stuff is "magic" (Long-time radio guy. Way long-time. From HF to microwave. Have done my own antenna design/fab in the past), but I'm kinda sorta suspecting that rooftop antenna is the culprit. (Coax [RG6] is fine and so are the connections.) I'm wondering if a different antenna, of a different design might not solve the problem?

One of my best friends has one of these: https://www.amazon.com/ClearStream-I...2Boutdoor&th=1 way out in the sticks the other side of Houghton Lake, surrounded by big ol' jack pines and realizes good performance.

Or maybe one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Channel-Maste...ntenna+outdoor (which rates on Amazon better than the ClearStream).

I don't believe I need the low-VHF the current yagi gave me, anymore?

Thanks for any insights or suggestions.

Jim

Last edited by SEMIJim; 04-17-2017 at 09:56 AM. Reason: add'l info
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post #12473 of 12478 Old 04-17-2017, 02:52 PM
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I don't know if any of this will help but ...

Interest in stations behind a very large maple (and other) trees. Check.
Watch CBC 9. Check. Trees in that direction too, in fact every direction.

I have a 30 year-old Archer VU-110, VHF/UHF/FM Antenna with a rotor on a mast on the roof of a single story house. Aimed directly at ch 9, about compass 184.
And a RCA ANT751 Compact Outdoor Antenna strapped to a chimney close to the Archer antenna. Aimed at compass 90-92 for the Southfield stations.

These go to an Antenna's Direct UHF/VHF Antenna Combiner with the Archer to the VHF input and the RCA to UHF input. The combined signal goes to a Winegard
BoostXT. Then 75 feet of co-ax to a 3-way splitter with a signal attenuator before the TiVo which is finicky.

I am close to the Southfield stations, about compass 86, and ch 7.x multipath is severe. I have a TiVo Premier XL whose OTA tuners seem to need a Goldilocks signal. So never ch 7.x, seldom 50.x, ... And when everything is leafed out 4.x is frequently unwatchable. But with a BoostXT I can get 13.x from Toledo. 9 is great, never a problem. A 8-year old semi-alive Sony DVR can get 7.x without any problems.
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post #12474 of 12478 Old 04-17-2017, 07:56 PM
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You won't have to worry about aiming for Flint's Channel 28 anymore- CMU sold it at auction and it's expected to go dark in May. The frequency will be used by WSYM-TV Lansing as part of the soon-to-happen repacking of stations.

We're all going to be going thru the process of rescanning as TV stations move to their new frequencies and finding out just how good our antennas and tuners are with the cramming together of the TV band. Guessing that co-channel interference will be a nightmare for most that try to pickup non-locals.
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post #12475 of 12478 Old 04-27-2017, 09:10 PM
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Quick question for the group on TVO - Ch 32/RF32. I was getting them in here in Royal Oak with a very strong signal. Their signal here has dropped to the point that I have a hard time getting a lock. Have they reduced power or am I getting impacted by the trees leafing out? CBET on RF9 is fine as is all of the Detroit locals - no changes there. My antenna setup is unchanged.
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post #12476 of 12478 Old Yesterday, 10:28 AM
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Probably trees. VHF is less prone to that issue. Most of the Detroit locals are close enough to you you'd need lead trees before there'd be problems. CICO is half the power and 2/3rds the height of WWJ. And a chunk farther away.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #12477 of 12478 Old Yesterday, 05:29 PM
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Quick question for the group on TVO - Ch 32/RF32. I was getting them in here in Royal Oak with a very strong signal. Their signal here has dropped to the point that I have a hard time getting a lock. Have they reduced power or am I getting impacted by the trees leafing out? CBET on RF9 is fine as is all of the Detroit locals - no changes there. My antenna setup is unchanged.
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Probably trees. VHF is less prone to that issue. Most of the Detroit locals are close enough to you you'd need lead trees before there'd be problems. CICO is half the power and 2/3rds the height of WWJ. And a chunk farther away.
Seconded. Almost certainly trees. This past week has been great for trees; not so much for RF reception. All the trees in RO have leafed out. CICO32D has become iffy, even with antenna on roof. Will repack make a difference?
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post #12478 of 12478 Old Today, 12:02 AM
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Seconded. Almost certainly trees. This past week has been great for trees; not so much for RF reception. All the trees in RO have leafed out. CICO32D has become iffy, even with antenna on roof. Will repack make a difference?

That could be interesting. Both CICO and WKYC, Cleveland, OH will be on RF 19 after the repack. I envision co-channel issues when we have tropo events crossing Lake Erie. That happens often during the summer.
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