Fort Smith, AR - HDTV - Page 23 - AVS Forum
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post #661 of 3402 Old 09-08-2006, 08:22 AM
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@ubdkjrb: I too have Dish sat. Do you use an HD receiver; If so, what model?
I would be interested in hearing about your setup as I'm still contemplating on moving to Cox -- which I really don't want to do if I can avoid it.

@Kimmie: I would be interested to hear your setup as well. I am really very new to HD even though I have had a widescreen HD-ready TV for over 4 years now... sad really. I guess I'm your typical HD-moron.
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post #662 of 3402 Old 09-08-2006, 08:39 AM
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Hobbzilla - I have a DVR-625 that has two tuners and the dvr records in HD. Very nice receiver. I have a Winegard Squarshooter antenna up in my attic pretty much facing south. I get CBS HD out of Ft. Smith at about 95%, ABC (Khog) at about 75% and the new NBC (Knwa) at 80%. One of the less renown advantages of Dish is you can request additional "local" channels. I have two each of CBS, NBC and FOX - Chicago and Los Angeles. The LA feed is the handiest since they are two hours behind; so if you miss something you can get it two hours later. I have Chicago because I lived there for so many years that I enjoy their evening news.
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post #663 of 3402 Old 09-08-2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubdkjrb View Post

I'm in Springdale and get ABC,NBC and CBS but no FOX. Isn't 24.1 coming from basically the same place as CBS out of Ft. Smith. I get that one at 95%. Why wouldn't 24.1 be showing anything? I too have an attic antenna.

Different question while I have your attention. I have Dish and get the guide for CBS HD but don't get it for NBC or ABC. Why would that be. No big deal unless I want to DVR something.

The correct channel you would scan would be 27 which gets remapped to 24.1 and 24.2 but you are right, when it first went OTA I was getting a 93% signal and a couple days ago it completely dissapeared, when I scan i don't even get a signal.
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post #664 of 3402 Old 09-08-2006, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmerlos View Post

The correct channel you would scan would be 27 which gets remapped to 24.1 and 24.2 but you are right, when it first went OTA I was getting a 93% signal and a couple days ago it completely dissapeared, when I scan i don't even get a signal.

Where does that leave us? If I'm not going to be able to pick up Fox in Springdale with my current indoor antenna, then I'm ready to start looking at the dreaded outdoor antenna. Fox Sports has a lot of Hd program that we're anxious to view. But, if this is just a technical problem on the station's end, I don't want to go through the hassle/expense/irritation of the neightbors with an outdoor antenna.

BTW, I can get a snowy 24 analog, but no 24.1.

Any recommendations for outdoor antenna would be appreciated. My only experience dates back to early 1970's, when someone adjusted the antenna on the roof while the other person yelled out the windows telling them how the picture looked.
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post #665 of 3402 Old 09-08-2006, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmie View Post

Where does that leave us? If I'm not going to be able to pick up Fox in Springdale with my current indoor antenna, then I'm ready to start looking at the dreaded outdoor antenna. Fox Sports has a lot of Hd program that we're anxious to view. But, if this is just a technical problem on the station's end, I don't want to go through the hassle/expense/irritation of the neightbors with an outdoor antenna.

BTW, I can get a snowy 24 analog, but no 24.1.

Any recommendations for outdoor antenna would be appreciated. My only experience dates back to early 1970's, when someone adjusted the antenna on the roof while the other person yelled out the windows telling them how the picture looked.

I have an outdoor antenna, I use the Channel Master 4228, Its probably one of the best antenna's for the price,around $50. I live in Rogers, prairie creek, and I'm completely surrounded by trees and I can still get 5.1 at 99%, 29.1 at 99%, 13.1 at 94% 51.1 at 93% and until a couple of days ago I was getting 24.1 at 93%-96% now it's not even showing up on the radar.
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post #666 of 3402 Old 09-08-2006, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmie View Post

Where does that leave us? If I'm not going to be able to pick up Fox in Springdale with my current indoor antenna, then I'm ready to start looking at the dreaded outdoor antenna. Fox Sports has a lot of Hd program that we're anxious to view. But, if this is just a technical problem on the station's end, I don't want to go through the hassle/expense/irritation of the neightbors with an outdoor antenna.

BTW, I can get a snowy 24 analog, but no 24.1.

Any recommendations for outdoor antenna would be appreciated. My only experience dates back to early 1970's, when someone adjusted the antenna on the roof while the other person yelled out the windows telling them how the picture looked.

I would second jmerlos' recommendation for the Channel Master 4228. I use one with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp to get Tulsa stations 96 miles away. Only way I can get NBC in HD. I have also used a Channel Master 4221, the 4228's little brother, without an amplifier and was impressed with its performance. The 4221 has a broader beamwidth and was especially good for those other stations located off-axis.

Check for Fox 24 during primetime. Over the last week I've seen them off the air sometimes during the day, other times mirroring KNWA broadcasting, and last Saturday during the day they were transmitting a test pattern. Something about having to act like KNWA during the day hours.
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post #667 of 3402 Old 09-08-2006, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

hobzilla,
What brand and specific model# TV are you currently using?

I have a Samsung 47" widescreen HD ready Projection TV Model # HCL4715W

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...632FP?v=glance

EDIT: Okay I think I have found my solution and am wanting some feedback.
I am looking to stay around my $100 budget so please keep in mind my choices.

1) $71.17 - Refurb Hughes DTV HTL-HD for use as a OTA ATSC tuner w/o DTV subscription (info)
This receiver does not supports MPEG4 .. is that a requirement in our market? I am under the impression that OTA ATSC is all MPEG2 encoded.

2) $19.99 - Indoor Zenith Silver Sensor (info)
I will be sitting on top of the entertainment center at 6' 6" and pointed towards a window to the south. I will borrow this from a friend or buy it locally so I can return it in order to make sure it will work before buying it online for the best price available.

TOTAL: $ 91.16

If #2 above doesn't work I will have to bust the budget and get the following one at a time until I get it to work as expected.

2b) $36.41 - Channel Master 4221A outdoor antenna (info)

2b) $6.99 - 1x Recoton Satellite DSV97 Diplexer (already had one in my junk box)

2b) $5 - 2x 6' lengths of RG6 w/connectors (sweet talk a satellite installer perhaps?)

I don't know that much about mounting antennas.. Can you "hang" an antenna in the attic instead of mounting it on a pole? Either with a single rubber coated utility hook... rope and hooks (both I already have).. Otherwise I will have to mount it on a pole and an attic mounting bracket which cost $$. Is the Channel Master normally mounted straight up and down or do you often times have to skew it? (see article ). My wife has already said "no" to mounting the antenna to the satellite. Which means I may have to spend even more to buy a pre-amp.
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post #668 of 3402 Old 09-08-2006, 08:40 PM
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Thank you 4029engineering for your post and information on this.
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post #669 of 3402 Old 09-09-2006, 06:17 AM
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For some of you not receiving KFTA-DT FOX-HD 24-1:

If you can get KSFX analog ch 27 from Springfield at all - even with snow, it may be interfering with your reception of KFTA-DT, which also broadcasts on channel 27. If this is the case, your situation won't likely improve until KSFX analog 27 shuts down in 2009.

KFTA-DT on RF channel 27 was a poor channel choice.
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post #670 of 3402 Old 09-10-2006, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbzilla View Post

I have a Samsung 47" widescreen HD ready Projection TV Model # HCL4715W

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...632FP?v=glance

EDIT: Okay I think I have found my solution and am wanting some feedback.
I am looking to stay around my $100 budget so please keep in mind my choices.

1) $71.17 - Refurb Hughes DTV HTL-HD for use as a OTA ATSC tuner w/o DTV subscription (info)
This receiver does not supports MPEG4 .. is that a requirement in our market? I am under the impression that OTA ATSC is all MPEG2 encoded.

2) $19.99 - Indoor Zenith Silver Sensor (info)
I will be sitting on top of the entertainment center at 6' 6" and pointed towards a window to the south. I will borrow this from a friend or buy it locally so I can return it in order to make sure it will work before buying it online for the best price available.

TOTAL: $ 91.16

If #2 above doesn't work I will have to bust the budget and get the following one at a time until I get it to work as expected.

2b) $36.41 - Channel Master 4221A outdoor antenna (info)

2b) $6.99 - 1x Recoton Satellite DSV97 Diplexer (already had one in my junk box)

2b) $5 - 2x 6' lengths of RG6 w/connectors (sweet talk a satellite installer perhaps?)

I don't know that much about mounting antennas.. Can you "hang" an antenna in the attic instead of mounting it on a pole? Either with a single rubber coated utility hook... rope and hooks (both I already have).. Otherwise I will have to mount it on a pole and an attic mounting bracket which cost $$. Is the Channel Master normally mounted straight up and down or do you often times have to skew it? (see article ). My wife has already said "no" to mounting the antenna to the satellite. Which means I may have to spend even more to buy a pre-amp.

MPEG4 is not an issue at this time. I have seen some demonstrations where two HD streams and 4 SD streams were encoded with MPEG4 and it all looked really good. The problem is that the current system was defined as MPEG2 and a lot of digital receivers are not capable of MPEG4. Don't know how everybody can get upgraded to that since it is taking over 10 years just to get off analog tuners.

Hanging your antenna in the attic MAY work just fine. I say may because there is no certainty when it comes to receiving UHF signals. I know someone in Greenwood who hung an antenna in his attic with monofilament fishing line and it worked great. He was even able to receive KHOG from there. His next door neighbor tried the same thing and the only station he could pick up at all was KHBS. It all depends how the signal gets there. What the roof is made of, where you are located, and the surrounding terrain. The method of mounting isn't real critical, as long as the antenna is held steady in place. A lot of factors are involved. For example, the question of tilt. All TV is transmitted horizontally polarized so in theory horizontal orientation should give you the best reception. In practice though, things happen to the signal on it's way to you. UHF does not bend around obstacles very well, but it does bounce around fairly well. When that happens it is kind of like a bullet ricocheting. If you do not have a direct line of sight, the best signal may even coming from a different direction than directly towards the station. It's polarity may have gotten rotated such as clearly happened in the case you linked in your email. Then tilting the antenna may give you a better signal. One thing for sure, going through walls and things doesn't help. I always advise people to get the antenna outside the house if at all possible. If you are getting one bounce, you are probably getting others. This is multipath and each signal arrives at a different time and physical orientation. This is what kills a digital signal more than anything else. DTV tuners compensate for multipath until the errors are greater than it can handle. Sometimes multipath can be such a problem that you actually get a very strong signal, but the multipath kills the decoding. That is why you can have a signal strength of 100% and still be getting microblocking. In that case you may want to turn off the preamp or attenuate the signal so that some of the multipath elements drop below a detectable level. Without equipment such as spectrum analyzers, your best bet may be to ignore signal strength and try all directions and orientations of the antenna while watching for the most stable picture.
Good Luck!

4029engineering consists of several engineers who are HDTV viewers just like you. Anything said in this forum is their own opinion and not necessairly official KHBS/KHOG policy.
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post #671 of 3402 Old 09-12-2006, 12:43 PM
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Hello Forum, I'm a newbie in the HD world. Just recently purchased a 42" plasma TV and have Dish 622 DVR. HD is breath taking and stunningly clear. I'm in FSM area in Druid Hills area but surrounded by hills on 3 sides and cannot pick up any OTA signals including SD TV. I moved into this house 6 years ago and had to have cable or satellite to receive any TV programming.

The new plasma is a Samsung HP-S4243 which has a built-in HDTV tuner (NTSC/ATSC). I didn't have any expectations of receiving OTA signals due to reasons I stated above. I did purchase a $30 indoor attenna and hooked it up to my TV and did a scan just for good measure. As expected, no dice.

I really want to get the major networks in HD but I really prefer staying on Dish. I have read this forum but am still a little confused by everything that I've read.

Is it possible to subscribe to Cox basic cable and connect that to either my TV (ATSC tuner) or the OTA port on Dish 622 DVR and get the major networks HD programming or am I required to subscribe to Cox digital programming to get this?
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post #672 of 3402 Old 09-12-2006, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by athoma00 View Post

... Is it possible to subscribe to Cox basic cable and connect that to either my TV (ATSC tuner) or the OTA port on Dish 622 DVR and get the major networks HD programming or am I required to subscribe to Cox digital programming to get this?

You do not have to pay extra or subscribe to the digital tier to get the local HD broadcast channels on cable (contrary to misinformation being spread by one local broadcast tv station in the area). The local digital HD broadcast channels are unencrypted on cable, by law. To view them, all you need is a TV with QAM cable tuner. Unfortunately, your TV and dish DVR do not have a QAM cable tuner. :-(

caveat emptor
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post #673 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 06:43 AM
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post #674 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 06:55 AM
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I never realized they were part of the same ownership group as WHO in Des Moines, which has been locked into a great local head to head battle with the Hearst affilliate KCCI for now only viewers but HD, etc. KHOG and KCCI are almost identical in news set-up, graphics, etc, but KFSM and WHO are light years apart, with KFSM looking ancient, and WHO looking 21st century. Hopefully once they sell, KFSM will get a bit more up to date look.
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post #675 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 07:15 AM
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I *like* the out date look of KFSM (& KHOG) news graphics. They're not distracting with all sorts of constantly moving/changing scrolling graphics, like KNWA's. On a big screen, all that moving flashing scrolling crap gets old really fast.
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post #676 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 07:19 AM
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Thanks arxaw for clearing up the local HD feeds via cable. I guess my only options are to wait for E* to pick up these feeds and offer them. Do you know if that is likely to happen very soon? Or is there a recommended option to purchase a QAM tuner and get basic cable service to pick up the networks in HD?
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post #677 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmie View Post

... I can get a snowy 24 analog, but no 24.1...

A friend just emailed me and said he was told by some guy named Marty at KFTA that KFTA-DT is only broadcasting at 1/5th of full power.

So instead of the same power level as KNWA-DT (1000kW ERP), KFTA is only broadcasting at 200 kW ERP.

That might explain some people's OTA reception problems.
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post #678 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by athoma00 View Post

Or is there a recommended option to purchase a QAM tuner and get basic cable service to pick up the networks in HD?

I can't recommend it, but here is one OTA/QAM tuner you could buy. It would pay for itself in just a few months, when you compare the cost of basic cox cable vs renting their equipment (plus the digital tier subscription required to rent their box).
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post #679 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

A friend just emailed me and said he was told by some guy named Marty at KFTA that KFTA-DT is only broadcasting at 1/5th of full power.

So instead of the same power level as KNWA-DT (1000kW ERP), KFTA is only broadcasting at 200 kW ERP.

That might explain some people's OTA reception problems.


I wonder if they are just waiting to carry their own full programming day and for advertisers to start generating revenue. It would be nice if they could at least turn it up in the evenings and NFL Sundays...
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post #680 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 08:20 AM
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http://www.myfox24.com/HDTV.asp

This may also explain the 1/5th power, or maybe that is all they are sending out until they get some revenue..
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post #681 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 08:37 AM
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I don't see anything there that explains the 1/5 full power broadcasting. I wonder if they started out at full power and decided to cut back. Just guessing, since some people said they could pick it up, then it vanished.

I get co-channel interference from Springfield, so I cant' pick up KFTA-DT at all.
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post #682 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 08:01 PM
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That doesn't make sense. An IOT transmitter uses practically the same amount of electricity at 100% power as it does at 1/5. I mean the difference is probably only a couple of hundred dollars or less per month. (Our KHOG transmitter bill is about $10,000 a month). There is no cost savings to be had by running lower power.
MY OPINION: They have a construction permit for 200KW, (not 1000KW). They have been running under a temporary authority from the FCC (STA) at 6KW (the 1/5 figure?? who knows). They apparently have installed the new transmitter. What you saw was the factory tech's tuning it up and running quality and proof of performance tests. They may have to remain under the terms of the STA until it can be canceled. They probably have to apply to the FCC to terminate the STA and issue a permanent license for the 200KW. Normally, under a construction permit you can go on the air after construction at the power authorized by the permit. The fact that they missed the full power deadline and had to get an STA to continue operating at low power complicated the issue. Perhaps to be legal they had to cut back to low power until the FCC authorizes them to go full power. They have already violated about a half dozen FCC rules and are probably on thin ice with them. The FCC never gets in a hurry. Drives us crazy. They could get the authorization any day now.
EDIT: Also, a station MUST by FCC rules keep the power of the transmitter between 80% and 110% of licensed power unless there is a fault beyond their control. Even then, the FCC must be notified that you are unable to achieve full power after a couple of weeks leeway. You just can't decide that you want to run at low power.

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post #683 of 3402 Old 09-13-2006, 08:48 PM
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They have an FCC application for 1000kW ERP. I was referring to 200kW, which is 1/5th the power of the ERP they have an FCC application for. Since my original post, I was told that KFTA-DT lowered their power due to an interference complaint from an LPTV station at ATU in Russellville. I have no way to verify this.

Your "firing it up to full power for proof of performance" theory makes perfect sense and would explain why some viewers saw the station initially, but can't receive it now.

If anyone on this forum received KFTA-DT when it first started broadcasting from their new tower, but can't receive it now, please call Marty Houston at KFTA and ask him what happened.
The number is: 479 785-2400
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post #684 of 3402 Old 09-14-2006, 01:01 PM
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The 1000KW application was made in 2004 and returned by the FCC without action. That means it carries no authority and it would be against the FCC rules to build a facility for that power level. You can only build what your construction permit authorizes you to build. The only documents granted, and the only legal transmitter the station can build is the 200KW transmitter. The STA means that they can operate at 6KW until it gets built. I am sure the power level of the signal you saw was the 200KW signal. If they did build a 1000KW transmitter without a construction permit, just wait until the FCC finds out. The fun would just be beginning.
According to the FCC database, the only other licenses for channel 27 is a translator in Paragould and a transmitter in El Dorado, which I don't think they could interfere with even if they wanted to.

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post #685 of 3402 Old 09-14-2006, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 4029engineering View Post

The 1000KW application was made in 2004 and returned by the FCC without action. That means it carries no authority and it would be against the FCC rules to build a facility for that power level. You can only build what your construction permit authorizes you to build. The only documents granted, and the only legal transmitter the station can build is the 200KW transmitter. The STA means that they can operate at 6KW until it gets built. I am sure the power level of the signal you saw was the 200KW signal. If they did build a 1000KW transmitter without a construction permit, just wait until the FCC finds out. The fun would just be beginning.
According to the FCC database, the only other licenses for channel 27 is a translator in Paragould and a transmitter in El Dorado, which I don't think they could interfere with even if they wanted to.

So if I understand this correctly, those of us that can't pick up their signal now will not be able to at least until they go through the FCC process for a 1000KW application and then upgrade their transmitter. Nice.

4029 - Would you expect a Springdale resident to be able to consistently pick up a 200KW signal from their tower position?
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post #686 of 3402 Old 09-14-2006, 05:18 PM
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They should reach Springdale with no problem. Do you pick up 24 analog now? The first DTV power levels authorized were chosen to give them the same reach as their analog counterpart. The map on their FCC license shows the 41 db signal (where the computers think the signal will not be usable with a standard outside antenna) reaches to just inside Rogers. As I always stress though, you will probably need more than rabbit ears.

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post #687 of 3402 Old 09-14-2006, 07:01 PM
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For what it's worth, here's my email to
mycomments@ myfox24.com

Subject: OTA HD on 24.1


Located in Springdale, I am unable to receive your 24.1
>over the air signal. Is it up at full power or are you
>still in the construction process? I want to look at
>upgrading my antenna, if necessary, to receive your Fox
>HD programming?

The reply

Hi Kim,
It is up and running, have you tried 51-2?

Marty Houston
Station Manager
KFTA - Fox 24


Maybe I didn't word it correctly, but I found the reply rather frustrating.




Edited to add;

Here's my reply
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 05:36:01 -0700 (PDT)

> Mr. Houston,
>
> I receive the analag signal on the 51.2. My question
>is concerning the FOX OTA HD signal. Is it running at
>full power? If it is, my indoor antenna cannot pick it
>up. I would like to know if the signal I'm now receiving
>is the permanent signal. If so, I will invest in an
>outdoor antenna. But, if the signal strength will be
>improving in the future, I won't go to the trouble of
>buying/installing/irritating my neightbors with an
>outdoor antenna in hopes that my indoor antenna can pick
>it up.
>
> Thank you for taking time to respond to me,
>
> Kim


Here's the reply, this time there was no name attached.

Yes HD is up and running on 27.1, which is just north
of Mountainburgh, you would probably need an outdoor
antenna for that. 51.2 is not analog, it is at the least
a digital picture, not sure if it is true HD though. The
last thing I was told concerning this is exploring weather
or not we had enough bandwidth to put 51-1 and 51-2 both
on HD. Oh, try 24-1 for KFTA, Fox 24 HD, many tuners will
go to that. Let me know what you are seeing there.


I'm just getting increasingly frustrated. I assume it was not Mr. Houston that replied the second time, since his name was not given and Mountainburg was spelled incorrectly.
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post #688 of 3402 Old 09-15-2006, 04:13 PM
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Kimmie, I think you are getting punk'd. Or maybe Candid Camera is being resurrected.
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post #689 of 3402 Old 09-15-2006, 04:33 PM
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I got information from a very reliable "inside" source who is very very very very close to their transmitter, that they are indeed on the air at full authorized power. That power is 200KW on a directional antenna and they will remain at that level until the FCC reconsiders their application for 1000KW. Nobody except the FCC knowns when that will be. As I said about construction permits, this transmitter will have to be expanded before they can achieve 1000KW and you will see a CP on the FCC site when that happens.

4029engineering consists of several engineers who are HDTV viewers just like you. Anything said in this forum is their own opinion and not necessairly official KHBS/KHOG policy.
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post #690 of 3402 Old 09-16-2006, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4029engineering View Post

... this transmitter will have to be expanded before they can achieve 1000KW and you will see a CP on the FCC site when that happens.

Is this a major project or something they can do in a few days? In other words, couldn't we expect that they would have the major components for a 1000KW signal in place and they would just have to install or modify a few things once they get they get FCC permission? Or is it like starting over?
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