Fort Smith, AR - HDTV - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3402 Old 09-23-2006, 10:50 AM
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Thanks 4029. I know with so much competion from cable, sat, the internet, local tv stations have to fight for advertising revenue. I've learned from friends in the news end that local news is expensive to produce and basically generates no revenue.

My post wasn't as much geared toward the local stations but to the corporations who own them and Cox. I guess I was thinking out loud more than anything.

I was just amazed at how every station and Comcast was promoting HD content there, it was quite a surprise.
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post #722 of 3402 Old 09-23-2006, 02:22 PM
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If KODE, KSPR and KTUL operated full power HD stations, you wouldn't see 40/29 trying to extort money from Cox, because cox would just pick up one or more of those HD ABC affiliates and leave 40/29 behind in the analog dust.
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post #723 of 3402 Old 09-23-2006, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

If KODE, KSPR and KTUL operated full power HD stations, you wouldn't see 40/29 trying to extort money from Cox, because cox would just pick up one or more of those HD ABC affiliates and leave 40/29 behind in the analog dust.

Think for a minute what you are saying, that 40/29 is extorting money from Cox. Well, where does Cox get their money? Not from 40/29. They get it from me and you (if you are on cable). And not only that they expect me to pay more to get the HD signals, up to 40 or 50 bucks more! That's what I call extortion! Plus they keep raising our rates without offering anything substantial or new. 40/29 offers it to me free of charge over the air, because they get their revenue from ads, not my bill. I think they have every right to ask Cox to share in the expense of their broadcasts, after all Cox is getting rich off me and you, and each broadcaster like 40/29.
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post #724 of 3402 Old 09-23-2006, 08:31 PM
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[Cox doesn't get a dime from me - never has, and never will. And I really hope Cox cable drops 40/29 or any other local broadcast channel that asks them for money to carry their signal.]

If you had a QAM digital cable tuner that comes in virtually every 26" or larger SD & HD TV currently found in any walmart or other discount store today, you wouldn't have to rent a box from Cox or sub to their digital tier for the privilege of renting the box. 40/29 HD, like all other local channels cox carries, is included with a basic cox cable subscription at no additional charge. Just because your TV can't pick it up, don't blame cox.

If you don't think cox won't raise your rates if 40/29 makes them start pay ing for something they're currently offering their customers for free, think again.

And I never said 40/29 doesn't have the right to extort money from cox. The NAB lobbyists saw to it that they got that right. I just think it's greedy of 40/29 asking for money for something that benefits them directly - MORE VIEWERS due to cox cable carriage.
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post #725 of 3402 Old 09-24-2006, 09:30 AM
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If Hearst started running infomercials on the hd signal being free thru cable, then no, they shouldn't require money. If Cox informs people you don't have to have thier digital tier to get the local hd, then again, Hearst shouldn't charge. Until the charade of you have to pay to get local HD ends via the cable company, then Hearst should be able to get some revenue that Cox is getting. Hearst is the supplier, Cox is playing the middle man, and the consumer is paying cox to supply the signal. It's like good will. I donate to goodwill, then they turn around and sell it. I don't receive any money from goodwill from the sale, but I am not trying to pay expenses. I guess broadcasters are considered goodwill. D* charges for locals, they just roll the cost into their published fees, and you don't see the difference. Cable is charging for locals one way or the other, they just can't say they are. If you priced out the life line package by the 3 basic cable channels that come with it, you shouldn't be paying more than what, $3.00 a month vs. the $15 or whatever they charge. Hell of a markup for limited channels, and several they provide free...
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post #726 of 3402 Old 09-24-2006, 10:02 AM
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It's public record that cablecos cannot encrypt or charge extra for local broadcast HD channels. They can charge you a monthly rental fee for an HD cable box if you want to rent one from them. They can also limit rental to people on certain tiers of service. Bottom line, they currently do not charge extra for local HD channels and they are completely in the clear, and not encrypted.

But if the cablecos have to start paying locals for carriage, they will just raise rates across the boad for all subscribers, to cover the costs incurred. So, even those that don't have a set capable of watching the HD channels will have to pay more.
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post #727 of 3402 Old 09-24-2006, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

It's public record that cablecos cannot encrypt or charge extra for local broadcast HD channels.

Just where is that?

4029engineering consists of several engineers who are HDTV viewers just like you. Anything said in this forum is their own opinion and not necessairly official KHBS/KHOG policy.
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post #728 of 3402 Old 09-24-2006, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 4029engineering View Post

Just where is that?

I don't know about the public record and legalities and such, but for the sake of this discussion, here is info regarding HD locals straight from Cox's website:

Free Locals in HD with Basic Cable Subscription

Again, I can plug my basic coax into my TV equipped with a HDTV tuner and get all the networks at no charge.

The HD charge is for STB rental and for channels such as ESPNHD, iNHD1 & 2, UHD, MHD, etc.
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post #729 of 3402 Old 09-24-2006, 09:25 PM
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Sure, but that is at their option isn't it? They could change their mind at any time.
When I first subscribed to D* they were advertising get HD programs for no extra cost. Then when they got enough viewers, bam. Right now HD viewers are but a small drop in the bucket of viewers. That is fixing to change in the next few years. All I want to get across is if you think COX, or any other business is going to pass up a revenue opportunity you are fixing to get educated big time. They are in this to make money, just like we are. The programing is a product. A business does not give it's product away for free. The entire TV business model is being changed right now. When I first started in the business 27 years ago, ABC paid us to run network programming. Now they are approaching revenue neutral and their long term plan is that affiliates will pay them to carry their programming. Things change. Currently all of our revenue generated during network is from 4 minutes of commercial time an hour.
I asked for proof because unless there is something I don't know about the last legal briefing I saw on the subject said the FCC tabled Must Carry for DTV (HD) in June 2006 without making a ruling. That means that right now, anything goes. If you aren't good at wading through all the FCC proceedings, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Must-carry is a good source.

4029engineering consists of several engineers who are HDTV viewers just like you. Anything said in this forum is their own opinion and not necessairly official KHBS/KHOG policy.
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post #730 of 3402 Old 09-24-2006, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

If you had a QAM digital cable tuner that comes in virtually every 26" or larger SD & HD TV currently found in any walmart or other discount store today, you wouldn't have to rent a box from Cox or sub to their digital tier for the privilege of renting the box. 40/29 HD, like all other local channels cox carries, is included with a basic cox cable subscription at no additional charge. Just because your TV can't pick it up, don't blame cox.

That's my problem with Cox. I DO have a QAM tuner and I get the locals OTA and on Cox over QAM, but Cox would like to keep that a secret so they can get their subscribers to add the box and rental fees. I don't like the idea of 40/29 charging Cox either because Cox will just raise our rates. But I really don't like the fact that Cox does not tell everyone the whole story. Cable Companies have put pressure on SONY and other DVR makers to stop selling DVRs, because they want to rent their boxes to their subscribers. I bought the last HD DVR from Best Buy in June and was told by Circuit City that they stopped selling theirs because the cable companies did not want them to do so. My Sony HD DVR is the best piece of equipment I now own and you can't buy them anymore. Have you noticed how few HD DVRs are on the market that are subscription free? And that the only readily availble one's come with a subscription fee (Cox HD DVR, Direct TV HD DVR, Dish, Tivo, etc.). Ask yourself why this is.

I am still scratching my head on this one, you can get these in Japan but not in the US. I think it is exactly for the same reason that the salesman in CC told me, the cable cos put pressure on TV manufacturers to not sell DVRs that don't require a subscription. How they were able to leverage this pressure is something I don't understand, but apparently the cable cos have some sway with manufacturers. I just like the idea that Hearst is putting pressure on a cable co to not always have it their way!

In an ideal situation I would like to be able to get and pay just for the channels or shows I want on demand. Hopefully iptv will become more of a reality soon and we won't have to be limited by what a cable co does, or pay for things we don't want or need. (Why am I paying the cable co to broadcast QVC or Home Shopping, etc? They should be giving me credit for putting this junk on my channel lineup!)
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post #731 of 3402 Old 09-25-2006, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 4029engineering View Post

Sure, but that is at their option isn't it? They could change their mind at any time.

Of course. Businesses always reserve the right to control their pricing. But in our free market system, an increase in price doesn't always equate to an increase in revenue. That pesky elasticity of demand.

If Cox starts charging for HD locals and SAT doesn't follow suit, then they risk losing more subscribers to SAT.

Where I have an issue is with Hearst's statement: "Cox has been actively promoting to current and prospective subscribers the addition of our digital channel to its lineup, and charging its subscribers a premium for our high-definition signals. "

Cox IS NOT charging subscribers for KHOG-DT's signal. As you say, they MIGHT, but as of right now, they AREN'T. Hearst's main point of contention has no merit.
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post #732 of 3402 Old 09-25-2006, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

Picked up KNWA-DT ch 50 (remapped to 51-1 & 51-2) last night ...

arxaw - regarding your post (#525), in my ongoing experiment to try to pick up KNWA-DT in addition to the other OTA HDs, I'm being told by the guys at Warren Electronics that I need a Channel Master Jointenna which, as you may know, only allows antenna signal through for a specific frequency. This - not only in theory but hopefully reality - will allow me to run 2 antennas through the one RG-6 cable that I am using for my current CM 4228 without problems.

The thing is, the manufacturer has to program the Jointenna for the right frequency. Antennaweb says KNWA-DT is actually broadcasting on 50, but then it shows 50.1 as the actual channel number. But I am picking it up (partially) on 51-1 and 51-2, which I understand is the "remapping." Do I tell Warren Electronics that I need Channel 50 as the proper frequency? Is it safe for these purposes to totally ignore the whole "remapping" thing? The thing is a special order and cannot be returned so it needs to be right.

I've been waiting all morning for KNWA's engineering department to return a phone message on this issue ...
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post #733 of 3402 Old 09-25-2006, 07:44 PM
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You would want the Jointenna programmed to the actual RF channel, not the remapping. So in this case you need it for channel 50.

My opinion is that this remapping by PSIP is a mistake. Most of the population has no idea what the actual underlying channel is and that is what the antennas and receivers actually deal with. Sometimes I even have to remind myself that when I am tuning the transmitter I am actually dealing with channel 15, NOT 29.

4029engineering consists of several engineers who are HDTV viewers just like you. Anything said in this forum is their own opinion and not necessairly official KHBS/KHOG policy.
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post #734 of 3402 Old 09-27-2006, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by WED0420 View Post


Cox IS NOT charging subscribers for KHOG-DT's signal. As you say, they MIGHT, but as of right now, they AREN'T. Hearst's main point of contention has no merit.

Exactly right. I'm not one to defend any cable provider but Hearst has no leg to stand on here. After a quick search I found no less than two pages on Cox's website that say local HD channels are included with basic cable. The requirements listed for receiving it are deceiving (which I guess is Hearst's contention) but it's there in black and white.
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post #735 of 3402 Old 09-27-2006, 05:58 PM
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I've been noticing somewhat jerky playback of HD shows from my Motorola 6412 III DVR here in Fort Smith. It happens on shows recorded from different channels. It's almost as if the playback is just jumping ahead a frame or two at a time. It's kind of annoying but I don't know if it's the box or the signal. When I see it if I back it up it always happens at the same place so I think it's being recorded that way.
By the way this is a brand new box. I had trouble about a month ago and a Cox technician brought me a brand new unit. It still had the protective plastic on it.
Has anyone else been noticing this?
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post #736 of 3402 Old 09-27-2006, 06:37 PM
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Yes I have noticed that so i don't think is your box, the only time I noticed it was last night when I was watching prime time recorded shows
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post #737 of 3402 Old 09-28-2006, 12:14 PM
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I have basic cable with COX and also use Dish for my television needs. The basic cable is for the priviledge of using their internet service. I called COX and asked if I would get the local HD channels with my basic cable service. Predictably, their response was that I needed a receiver to do that. I informed them that I had an HD receiver in my TV and they replied that I still needed to rent a receiver.

I have my tv in my office that I use for my monitor hooked to the basic cable. If I run a coax from their to my HD TV, where would I plug it into? The "normal" connection is already taken by the satellite coax.
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post #738 of 3402 Old 09-28-2006, 01:33 PM
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ubdkjrb:

Can you connect the satellite to your TV another way? Like component or composite inputs? Then coax would be free for your cable.
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post #739 of 3402 Old 09-28-2006, 04:55 PM
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So here we are two days before the Cox/KHBS/KHOG deadline. Is there still any chance that all will work out well for us viewers?
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post #740 of 3402 Old 09-28-2006, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubdkjrb View Post

I have basic cable with COX and also use Dish for my television needs. The basic cable is for the priviledge of using their internet service. I called COX and asked if I would get the local HD channels with my basic cable service. Predictably, their response was that I needed a receiver to do that. I informed them that I had an HD receiver in my TV and they replied that I still needed to rent a receiver.

I have my tv in my office that I use for my monitor hooked to the basic cable. If I run a coax from their to my HD TV, where would I plug it into? The "normal" connection is already taken by the satellite coax.

Are you 100% sure your tv has a atsc/qam tuner built in, most tv's should have a ntsc and a digital tuner that you plug in the coax to.
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post #741 of 3402 Old 09-28-2006, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by arxaw View Post

Congrats hobbzilla, on your budget system that works.

What's your signal strength on the various channels?
Do you also get KAFT-DT 13-1, 13-2, 13-2 & 13-4 PBS? If so, you're lucky because the silver sensor UHF antenna usually doesn't work too well on highband VHF (chs 7 thru 13) channels.

Can't really speak of my specific signal strength other than what is displayed on the receiver itself (all of which register at > 50% and yes I do get 13.1=>13.4 with my silver sensor (I also tried the expensive indoor TERK -- which actually dropped 51 often when I had the powered amp switch turned on.

So there it is folks!! HDTV OTA ATSC receiver & indoor antenna combo for less than $100. Picking up ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS digital OTA signals in Springdale (412E & 71B) with a directional antenna pointed South at 7' high straight towards a window. I'm a happy camper. Now, to just send the reduced signal to my Dish DVR (I get locals but the digital OTA quality is hands down better -- even non-HD S-video output from the receiver).
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post #742 of 3402 Old 09-29-2006, 03:22 PM
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If any one is interested, I have a Channel Master 4228 Antenna that I have been using for about 3 months. I am selling it for $40.00 with local pickup or if within 30 miles, I can meet you half way. PM if Interested
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post #743 of 3402 Old 09-30-2006, 03:13 PM
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Hey everyone.

I recently got an open-box HDTV, I think one of the few that doesn't have a built-in HD tuner anymore. So if anyone here has an HD tuner that you don't need, PM and let's see if we can work out a deal.

And if anyone has pointers to good HD tuners that would work well with my existing equipment, I'd be interested in that as well. My TV is a 32-inch Sharp LCD, connected to an indoor amplified antenna. I get good pictures on the local analog stations except Fox (I'm in central Fayetteville).
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post #744 of 3402 Old 09-30-2006, 03:15 PM
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Could you guys lend me a little help?

I'm currently in the process of purchasing/turning on cable for my new place and I want full HD DVR service (my monitor does not have a tuner). I'm currently with Cox and am familiar with their workings, but was considering a possible switch to either Dish Network or DirecTV (leaning more towards Dish simply because of their robust HD lineup).

I, however, want my local channels in HD as well. For those of you who combine satellite with OTA receivers, would this be something you recommend? What is the lineup of local channels you get in HD? I've read many pages/posts back, and I can't quite tell what's available (it comes and goes it seems?).

I live in the Fort Smith area... I know that has some bearing on what I receive.

Thanks guys. Any input, whether directly related to my immediate questions or not, are appreciated. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if the simplicity of having Cox (with included HD local channels) is worth the tradeoff for their sub-par HD lineup. It's really pretty weak, don't you think? Or is it worth the contracts/antennas/etc to go elsewhere?

Thanks!
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post #745 of 3402 Old 09-30-2006, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmerlos View Post

Are you 100% sure your tv has a atsc/qam tuner built in, most tv's should have a ntsc and a digital tuner that you plug in the coax to.

My tv is a sony 50"sxrd model with an atsc (8vsb terrestrial) and qam tuner.

I plugged the cable into the coax cable connection on the back of the tv. I get channels 2-23 just fine but I can't get up into the 700's which is where I think the local HD channels are. What am I doing wrong? Thanks.
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post #746 of 3402 Old 10-01-2006, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JoshH View Post

... What is the lineup of local channels you get in HD? ...

Your nearest HD channels for the major networks are KHBS-DT (ABC), KFSM-DT (CBS), KFTA-DT (Fox), and KAFT-DT (PBS). All usually transmit HD programming OTA when their network provides it. NBC programming (KNWA-SD) is available OTA on a KFTA-DT subchannel; it's digital, but it's not HD. Unless you're in a bad location you should be able to receive all the above OTA, but you may need an outside antenna. The KFSM, KFTA, AND KAFT towers are located about 30 miles northeast of Fort Smith. The KHBS tower is in the opposite direction, about 25 miles southwest.

Your nearest stations for NBC HD OTA are KJRH-DT in Tulsa and KNWA-DT in Rogers. I live near the top of a hill and have a good outside antenna with pre-amp and get my NBC HD from the Tulsa station. I usually can't get KNWA-DT.
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post #747 of 3402 Old 10-01-2006, 07:15 AM
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Well apparently KHBS/KHOG and Cox could not resolve their differences. This morning I see that 720 Cox is now listed as KTUL and the program guide info is there. I looked at the listings for tonight and Desperate Housewives isn't listed as being in HDTV. I hope it is though.
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post #748 of 3402 Old 10-01-2006, 07:55 AM
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If cox could get KTUL in HD that would really suck for KHOG since they would loose all the cox viewers. As long as I can get ABC in HD i really don't care which station I get it from
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post #749 of 3402 Old 10-01-2006, 09:20 AM
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Well, since the channel isn't listed as KTUL-DT or KTUL-HD I doubt it will be in HD.
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post #750 of 3402 Old 10-01-2006, 11:04 AM
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If it is HD, it may be a better trade off as you could get the ABC regional games in HD since I don't believe the Tulsa stations have to tape delay the afternoon games due to overrun from the syndicated game if that is the game that is selected for HD coverage. That would be a positive selling feature for Cox!!
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