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post #361 of 1166 Old 07-15-2005, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by richmond5 View Post

Strange to what happen to me using CM 4228 and CM preamp 7778. Most of the time, I don't pickup any signal for Channel 2 WGRZ, once in a while I will get up a strong 70 to 80% signal for a while ( didn't stay on the channel long enough to find out how long) and it will disappear. Is it due to weather conditions or they are trying out occasional full power?

I get the same effect on all the Buffalo channels. It is called "cliff-effect".

The channels will often hover in the GOOD range for many hours during the day, then begin to drop down, and when it hits the bottom of GOOD, it drops out.(My indicator reads BAD - NORMAL - GOOD)

It continually wavers, and then all of a sudden drops to zero indication. I suspect that the signal drops below the receiver threshold for an acceptable signal, and therefore zero, but doesn't really drop to zero signal -- but zero useable signal.

The goal is to keep the signal in the GOOD zone, which is what your pre-amplifier should be doing.

Do you see any difference with the pre-amplifier in and out of circuit? You should see a difference in the levels on the Buffalo channels.
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post #362 of 1166 Old 07-16-2005, 05:09 AM
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is it due to weather conditions or they are trying out occasional full power?

Ducting, tropal, ground wave, skip;
it's DX weather!

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post #363 of 1166 Old 07-19-2005, 08:11 AM
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Any one knows where to buy a Channel Master 7775 Pre Amp, which store has it in GTA. PM or email me.

Thanks,

Jason
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post #364 of 1166 Old 07-19-2005, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jason.j.chen View Post

Any one knows where to buy a Channel Master 7775 Pre Amp, which store has it in GTA. PM or email me.

Thanks,

Jason

Try Hosick TV on Jane St. Look in the phone book for their phone number.
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post #365 of 1166 Old 07-24-2005, 01:54 PM
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I live in downtown Toronto and get all the local HD channels perfectly, but the only HD channel I get from Buffalo is PBS (sometimes). I'm curious if there's any possible way I can get Buffalo channels without a big outdoor antenna. Here's my circumstances:

1) I live around Bloor/St. George
2) I'm in a building, facing south above the treeline (CN Tower is directly south of me).
3) I have a standard RCA indoor antenna (rabbit ears).

Anybody else living downtown able to get these channels? I'm wondering if using a pre-amp might help me somewhat..... I might even be willing to get a very small outdoor antenna, as long as I can hide it discreetly on my balcony (the building doesn't allow that kind of stuff....)

Any help would be great. I want to enjoy HD football once the NFL season starts, and I'm guessing the Buffalo stations carry some....
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post #366 of 1166 Old 07-24-2005, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by teamme View Post

I live in downtown Toronto and get all the local HD channels perfectly, but the only HD channel I get from Buffalo is PBS (sometimes). I'm curious if there's any possible way I can get Buffalo channels without a big outdoor antenna. Here's my circumstances:

1) I live around Bloor/St. George
2) I'm in a building, facing south above the treeline (CN Tower is directly south of me).
3) I have a standard RCA indoor antenna (rabbit ears).

Anybody else living downtown able to get these channels? I'm wondering if using a pre-amp might help me somewhat..... I might even be willing to get a very small outdoor antenna, as long as I can hide it discreetly on my balcony (the building doesn't allow that kind of stuff....)

Any help would be great. I want to enjoy HD football once the NFL season starts, and I'm guessing the Buffalo stations carry some....

With an indoor antenna (rabbit ears) you are lucky that you get Buffalo PBS. You really need an outdoor antenna to get the Buffalo channels reliably. An indoor high gain, MAY get these for you, but not reliably.

A pre-amp will only help if there is a weak signal. Rabbit ears will probably get you a weak signal that an amplifier won't help with.

Yes -- there will be NFL on 2 Buffalo channels. I'm in Markham (Bayview & Steeles) using a CM4228 eight bay on a chimney mount and a Winegard AP-4700 pre-amp with medium gain to avoid local overloading. The pre-amp has reduced my drop-outs.
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post #367 of 1166 Old 07-24-2005, 08:47 PM
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I'm curious if there's any possible way I can get Buffalo channels without a big outdoor antenna.

Not a chance in hell.
Not from that far south of the city of Buffalo.
WNED is 10 miles NW of downtown Buffalo and the 3 networks are 20 miles SE (30 miles further from you).

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post #368 of 1166 Old 07-25-2005, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teamme View Post

I live in downtown Toronto and get all the local HD channels perfectly, but the only HD channel I get from Buffalo is PBS (sometimes). I'm curious if there's any possible way I can get Buffalo channels without a big outdoor antenna. Here's my circumstances:

I have a friend who lives at Steeles and Don Mills. He has an ATI HDTV Wonder and used the included indoor Silver Sensor antenna. He's able to get all the Buffalo channels except WGRZ. That might be because his window faces SW rather than S.

There have been a number of positive reports from downtown Toronto, IIRC, Yonge and Eglinton, Dupont and Christie and a variety of places in Mississauge of people who have used the Silver Sensor and small Radio Shack indoor antennas who managed to get all the Buffalo channels.

I think the record for receiving all the Buffalo channels was a user in Markham at 16th Ave. He had to mount his Silver Sensor in a closet and incredibly, he was able to get all the HDTV channels.

If you search on the 3dRage and Digital Home Canada web sites, you should be able to find those reports.

However, as everyone knows, there are many factors that go into a successful antenna installation, line of site, receiver sensitivity, multipath.
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post #369 of 1166 Old 07-25-2005, 08:24 AM
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Hi Guys,

I live in Woodbridge and am using a CM4228 attached to a Samsung TS-360. I get CBC and CTV great, but nothing else. Well, not entirely true, I also get french CBC. If I point my antenna to get CBC and CTV, then french CBC comes in weak with dropouts. I get a number of analog stations, but they don't count...

Anyone have any ideas what I could be doing wrong? Using Google Earth I have been able to determine that the ground level actually goes up about 20' at some point between me and the CN tower. I have the Channel Master currently mounted about 20' of the ground. Another factor is that there are a fair amount of trees in my area. Maybe an amp will help my situation?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks, James

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post #370 of 1166 Old 07-25-2005, 08:45 AM
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A preamp will only help if you are getting a decent signal at the antenna, and then having to transmit it down a long cable, and will help overcome UHF tuner noise figures.

Read this: http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html

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post #371 of 1166 Old 07-26-2005, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weblurker View Post

I have a friend who lives at Steeles and Don Mills. He has an ATI HDTV Wonder and used the included indoor Silver Sensor antenna. He's able to get all the Buffalo channels except WGRZ. That might be because his window faces SW rather than S.

There have been a number of positive reports from downtown Toronto, IIRC, Yonge and Eglinton, Dupont and Christie and a variety of places in Mississauge of people who have used the Silver Sensor and small Radio Shack indoor antennas who managed to get all the Buffalo channels.

I think the record for receiving all the Buffalo channels was a user in Markham at 16th Ave. He had to mount his Silver Sensor in a closet and incredibly, he was able to get all the HDTV channels.

If you search on the 3dRage and Digital Home Canada web sites, you should be able to find those reports.

However, as everyone knows, there are many factors that go into a successful antenna installation, line of site, receiver sensitivity, multipath.

An indoor Silver Sensor in the Toronto area (particularly N. Toronto) will get the Buffalo channels, but not continuously and reliably. There will be a LOT of drop out. So just to say you get them is meaningless -- they need to be able to get them better than 99% of the time -- year round.
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post #372 of 1166 Old 07-26-2005, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Semisentient View Post

Hi Guys,

I live in Woodbridge and am using a CM4228 attached to a Samsung TS-360. I get CBC and CTV great, but nothing else. Well, not entirely true, I also get french CBC. If I point my antenna to get CBC and CTV, then french CBC comes in weak with dropouts. I get a number of analog stations, but they don't count...

Anyone have any ideas what I could be doing wrong? Using Google Earth I have been able to determine that the ground level actually goes up about 20' at some point between me and the CN tower. I have the Channel Master currently mounted about 20' of the ground. Another factor is that there are a fair amount of trees in my area. Maybe an amp will help my situation?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks, James

What direction is your CM4228 pointing? The first thing is direction -- and I suspect from your area you should be pointing S.S.E. Then if you get the Buffalo channels with low signal levels, then a pre-amp.

I don't want to sound condescending, but the screen part is the reflector and should be facing N.N.W, while the 8 -X's, the directors, should be facing S.S.E. I've heard of many people not knowing this and not aimimg their antenna properly.
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post #373 of 1166 Old 07-26-2005, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intrac View Post

An indoor Silver Sensor in the Toronto area (particularly N. Toronto) will get the Buffalo channels, but not continuously and reliably. There will be a LOT of drop out. So just to say you get them is meaningless -- they need to be able to get them better than 99% of the time -- year round.

I haven't read anything about drop outs and weather related problems with the Silver Sensor. The standard of reception reliability (not picture or sound quality) in Canada is set very high by cable TV. If the HDTV Wonder and Silver Sensor failed as much as you implied, it would be unacceptable to people used to cable TV and someone would surely have complained. I haven't seen anything like that. I've had PM and forum conversations with several Toronto HDTVW/Silver Sensor owners and they've had nothing but positive comments about the combination.

Anyone who has read any HDTV Wonder forums know that HDTVW owners a lot , and with good reason, but I don't remember many complaints about drop outs.

One of the problems with assessing HDTV OTA reception is that it appears that the originating stations are still working out the bugs. WGRZ and CTV have been quite variable lately and problems seem to occur to everyone, including 4228 owners. Add in early software problems with the HDTV Wonder drivers and MMC and it's hard to figure out what's going on.

I had resigned myself to buying a $1000+ tower, rotator and 4228 until I started reading about high Buffalo signal strength reception (80% to 100%, 4 to 5 bars) with a $60 Radio Shack antenna.

Is there a transmission engineer in the house? Maybe he can add to this discussion. From my (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing) perspective, reading over the HDTV transmission specs seemed to indicate that digital HDTV requires about 20 db less s/n ratio than traditional analog UHF. The 4228 was designed for the 1949 (or 1962 US Congressional UHF tuner mandate) transmission era.

Digital HDTV appears to require a 100 times more sensitive receiver, impossibly expensive in 1949 or 1962 but can be built at a reasonable cost now.

IIRC, a Silver Sensor yields 3 to 6 db s/n, the 4228 12 to 16 db. There isn't 20 db difference between the two antennas. It's possible that the Silver Sensor is, in fact, designed to work 99% of the time in all weather conditions for digital UHF transmission . The 4228 will work 99.9% of the time but mainly because it was designed for much more difficult analog UHF reception.

It's also possible the Silver Sensor will work 100% of the time, there may be enough reception headroom for it to do that. The 4228 may have massive headroom, more than you'll ever need for UHF HDTV.

If you look at the 4228 specs, IIRC, it's supposed to work out to about 70 miles, deep fringe. So how is it the 8 inch Silver Sensor can get anything from Buffalo at all when the Buffalo transmitters are about 90 miles away? There has to be some factor beyond simply antenna size. I suspect it's because of the different design requirements, 4428 was designed for analog, Silver Sensor for digital.

However, I'll be getting an HDTV Wonder shortly and I'll be able to report on how often dropouts occur after a year or so. But there is some engineering and direct evidence that the Silver Sensor does work all the time.

BTW, the original poster mentioned using rabbit ears, a VHF antenna. So it's no surprise that he wasn't able to receive anything from Buffalo. But it would be a different story if he tried a small yagi antenna like the SIlver Sensor.


Also, does anyone have any hard figures or experience on weather attenuation of UHF signals?

I did a google search and found that UHF frequencies range from 300 MHz - 3 GHz

One web page said this about weather attenuation:

.................start of quote..................

http://www.ictp.trieste.it/~radionet...LOSS/INDEX.HTM

"Effects of Rain, Snow and Fog

The loss of LOS paths may sometimes be affected by weather conditions (other than the refraction effects which have already been mentioned). Rain and fog (clouds) become a significant source of attenuation only when we get well into the microwave region. Attenuation from fog only becomes noticeable (i.e., attenuation of the order of 1 dB or more) above about 30 GHz. Snow is in this category as well. Rain attenuation becomes significant at around 10 GHz, where a heavy rainfall may cause additional path loss of the order of 1 dB/km. "

..................end of quote............

The implication is that since rain and snow will only effect frequencies above 10 Ghz (that's almost certainly why digital satellite reception rain fade occurs), the effects of rain ought to be minimal to zero on the 300Mhz to 3Ghz UHF frequencies.

If so, that would imply that the performance of an antenna like the Silver Sensor on a sunny day ought to be the same as on a rainy or snowy day. So the issue of year around performance of UHF antennas might not be significant.
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post #374 of 1166 Old 07-26-2005, 04:00 PM
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I'm in the Derry/9th Line area of Mississauga. Currrently I have a "flying saucer" antenna on the roof, but I can't watch a show all the way thru without dropouts. I'm considering a 4228, but am concerned about the regular channel pick up. Say channels 4,5,7,9,11 etc. If the antenna is switched, is the reception adversley affected on Vhf. Would a preamp help?? Anyway to join the signals from both antennas?
I want to get this quickly, so all ideas/suggestions are welcome...

Thanks in advance

Rabid
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post #375 of 1166 Old 07-26-2005, 05:47 PM
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Are their any tools (electronic) that can be used to check one's signal strength in a particular area without having to buy a complete OTA package ? Anything that could be borrowed or rented ?

I'm pretty sure that I'm too far away and just over the horizon here up in Rockwood ,but I'd also be pretty disappointed to find out later that I might be able to pull in a few CN Tower stations .

Thanks in advance ,

Scott.....................

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post #376 of 1166 Old 07-26-2005, 08:42 PM
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Quote:


An indoor Silver Sensor in the Toronto area (particularly N. Toronto) will get the Buffalo channels, but not continuously and reliably.

I would love to see that!
MAYBE the ones off Grand Island, but surely not the ones in the Boston Hills!

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
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post #377 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

I would love to see that!
MAYBE the ones off Grand Island, but surely not the ones in the Boston Hills!

The Boston Hills ones will pop in and out -- again nothing reliable.
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post #378 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weblurker View Post

I haven't read anything about drop outs and weather related problems with the Silver Sensor. The standard of reception reliability (not picture or sound quality) in Canada is set very high by cable TV. If the HDTV Wonder and Silver Sensor failed as much as you implied, it would be unacceptable to people used to cable TV and someone would surely have complained. I haven't seen anything like that. I've had PM and forum conversations with several Toronto HDTVW/Silver Sensor owners and they've had nothing but positive comments about the combination.

Anyone who has read any HDTV Wonder forums know that HDTVW owners a lot , and with good reason, but I don't remember many complaints about drop outs.

One of the problems with assessing HDTV OTA reception is that it appears that the originating stations are still working out the bugs. WGRZ and CTV have been quite variable lately and problems seem to occur to everyone, including 4228 owners. Add in early software problems with the HDTV Wonder drivers and MMC and it's hard to figure out what's going on.

I had resigned myself to buying a $1000+ tower, rotator and 4228 until I started reading about high Buffalo signal strength reception (80% to 100%, 4 to 5 bars) with a $60 Radio Shack antenna.

Is there a transmission engineer in the house? Maybe he can add to this discussion. From my (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing) perspective, reading over the HDTV transmission specs seemed to indicate that digital HDTV requires about 20 db less s/n ratio than traditional analog UHF. The 4228 was designed for the 1949 (or 1962 US Congressional UHF tuner mandate) transmission era.

Digital HDTV appears to require a 100 times more sensitive receiver, impossibly expensive in 1949 or 1962 but can be built at a reasonable cost now.

IIRC, a Silver Sensor yields 3 to 6 db s/n, the 4228 12 to 16 db. There isn't 20 db difference between the two antennas. It's possible that the Silver Sensor is, in fact, designed to work 99% of the time in all weather conditions for digital UHF transmission . The 4228 will work 99.9% of the time but mainly because it was designed for much more difficult analog UHF reception.

It's also possible the Silver Sensor will work 100% of the time, there may be enough reception headroom for it to do that. The 4228 may have massive headroom, more than you'll ever need for UHF HDTV.

If you look at the 4228 specs, IIRC, it's supposed to work out to about 70 miles, deep fringe. So how is it the 8 inch Silver Sensor can get anything from Buffalo at all when the Buffalo transmitters are about 90 miles away? There has to be some factor beyond simply antenna size. I suspect it's because of the different design requirements, 4428 was designed for analog, Silver Sensor for digital.

However, I'll be getting an HDTV Wonder shortly and I'll be able to report on how often dropouts occur after a year or so. But there is some engineering and direct evidence that the Silver Sensor does work all the time.

BTW, the original poster mentioned using rabbit ears, a VHF antenna. So it's no surprise that he wasn't able to receive anything from Buffalo. But it would be a different story if he tried a small yagi antenna like the SIlver Sensor.


Also, does anyone have any hard figures or experience on weather attenuation of UHF signals?

I did a google search and found that UHF frequencies range from 300 MHz - 3 GHz

One web page said this about weather attenuation:

.................start of quote..................

http://www.ictp.trieste.it/~radionet...LOSS/INDEX.HTM

"Effects of Rain, Snow and Fog

The loss of LOS paths may sometimes be affected by weather conditions (other than the refraction effects which have already been mentioned). Rain and fog (clouds) become a significant source of attenuation only when we get well into the microwave region. Attenuation from fog only becomes noticeable (i.e., attenuation of the order of 1 dB or more) above about 30 GHz. Snow is in this category as well. Rain attenuation becomes significant at around 10 GHz, where a heavy rainfall may cause additional path loss of the order of 1 dB/km. "

..................end of quote............

The implication is that since rain and snow will only effect frequencies above 10 Ghz (that's almost certainly why digital satellite reception rain fade occurs), the effects of rain ought to be minimal to zero on the 300Mhz to 3Ghz UHF frequencies.

If so, that would imply that the performance of an antenna like the Silver Sensor on a sunny day ought to be the same as on a rainy or snowy day. So the issue of year around performance of UHF antennas might not be significant.

Take a look at this thread by a radio engineer-- summer reception is better -- http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...23#post5940223

If the Sensor works for you -- good luck. Remember -- reception is being able to enjoy a program for the entire program, not watching it drop in and out.

One thing you are missing completely -- there is no such thing as a digital or HD antenna. All the signals are RF, and this hasn't changed in a 100 years. The theory is the same. A high gain antenna recovers more signal than a low gain antenna. In reception, you have to overcome the noise, antenna connector & cable losses, and receiver input losses. Then what you are left with is useable signal -- it doesn't matter if it is analog or digital -- IT IS RF.
The more useable signal -- the better your reception.
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post #379 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid View Post

I'm in the Derry/9th Line area of Mississauga. Currrently I have a "flying saucer" antenna on the roof, but I can't watch a show all the way thru without dropouts. I'm considering a 4228, but am concerned about the regular channel pick up. Say channels 4,5,7,9,11 etc. If the antenna is switched, is the reception adversley affected on Vhf. Would a preamp help?? Anyway to join the signals from both antennas?
I want to get this quickly, so all ideas/suggestions are welcome...

Thanks in advance

Rabid

The 4228 should be pointed S.S.E, and this will give you good reception of the UHF HD channels. It will also work on the VHF channels, but you'll get some ghosting. (At least I do). The flying saucer antenna doesn't have the same gain and bandwidth characteristics of the CM4228. The saucer is primarily an OMNI antenna (it picks up signals in all directions).
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post #380 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intrac View Post

Take a look at this thread by a radio engineer-- summer reception is better -- http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...23#post5940223

I've read a number of reports about people being able to receive very distant transmitters from Rochester and Fort Erie during the summer, probably due to tropospheric ducting.

But that's only part of the story, or maybe none of the story. As I mentioned in my post, the issue is how much headroom does the Silver Sensor generate and is that headroom sufficient to overcome the variations in reception due to weather?

But I think this post from the thread you mentioned illustrates one user's experiences:

"Here in Minnesota, we get extremes of moisture content in the air. Dewpoints in the winter have actually been below zero, and in the summer as high as 86. While generally speaking, reception in the winter is better than in the summer, nothing beats a good tropospheric event to stretch the radio horizon. I've gotten UHF signals from over 250 miles away, clear as a bell, during tropospheric events which usually seem to happen on calm, hot and humid summer evenings more than any other time of year. "

(I added the boldface)

Two entirely different situations. Occasional summertime reception of transmitters 250 miles away does not mean that summer reception of local transmitters is necessarily better during the summer, simply because of geography. Local transmitters are probably too close for tropospheric ducting.

Quote:


If the Sensor works for you -- good luck. Remember -- reception is being able to enjoy a program for the entire program, not watching it drop in and out.

Well, duh. No offense, but your comment is insulting. I let it go the first time but not now, since you're brought it up again.

I've been watching cable TV for a long time, 30+ years. So have other HDTV Wonder users. I know what it means to have good, reliable TV. So does everyone else.

The problem with your argument is that it's based on thinking that people will put up with frequent HDTV program drop outs and not complain about it, after decades of watching zero drop out cable TV.

That idea might have worked in the 1950's when TV was new and people put up with bad reception because they didn't have anything else to compare it to, but not today, not even close.

You get HDTV for higher video and audio quality. What sense would it make to take the trouble to receive HDTV and put up with drop outs? But there is real life GTA user experiences with the Silver Sensor and the Radio Shack 1588 antenna that shows indoor antennas can work over the long term.

That's the point you keep missing. You're proposing a theory that an indoor antenna won't work when the real life experiences of actual HDTV viewers proves otherwise.

Quote:


One thing you are missing completely -- there is no such thing as a digital or HD antenna. All the signals are RF, and this hasn't changed in a 100 years. The theory is the same. A high gain antenna recovers more signal than a low gain antenna. In reception, you have to overcome the noise, antenna connector & cable losses, and receiver input losses. Then what you are left with is useable signal -- it doesn't matter if it is analog or digital -- IT IS RF.
The more useable signal -- the better your reception.

Where did I say that there are HDTV specific antennas?

Well, duh again.

Yes, I know that UHF signals are RF (you should have known that after reading the link I added about UHF signal degradation) and that there is no such thing as an HDTV antenna.

I tried very hard to explain why there can be a difference between digital UHF reception, or what the Silver Sensor was designed for, and analog UHF reception, what the 4228 was designed for.

As I said in my post, it appears that the digital UHF transmission standard has been designed for receivers about 100 times more sensitive than the 1949 VHF standard, which ought to mean that a smaller antenna should be able to receive an HDTV transmission whereas it would not be able to receive an analog UHF signal.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/8vsb.htm

That report, based on actual measurements, strongly supports the idea that small indoor antennas are quite capable of generating good, usable signals, which contradicts the point you're trying to make.

The author of that article is one of the technical writers for the HDTV Expert web page. Are you going to try to argue that he doesn't know that good HDTV reception means no drop outs?

The relevant quote from that article (among others) is this:
.............

"My first attempt at such an antenna delivered as promised and was built for $10 worth of hardware store parts. Pricey antennas don't mean a thing when it comes to DTV reception."
.............

That sums it up. Is it a waste to spend $1000+ on a tower+4228+rotator when you can spend zero extra dollars and use the Silver Sensor that comes with the HDTV Wonder? For most of the GTA, I strongly suspect so, but it depends on the front end of the receiver and local conditions, as always.

There is no question that the 4228 will generate a higher usable signal than the Silver Sensor. But this is the issue, does the Silver Sensor generate enough headroom to reliably receive all the Buffalo stations? Based on several user experiences in the GTA, it appears to be able to do the job.

If someone wants to spend money on a tower+antenna for what may be no reason other than to get a warm and fuzzy feeling that they're getting better reception, I can understand that. People buy insurance all the time.

But to extend that argument and say that you must or really ought to get a larger antenna when the engineering and real life data suggest otherwise, that's not correct thinking.

The idea that indoor antennas don't work reliably in the GTA appears to be wrong. I've brought to this discussion engineering data, that digital TV transmission standards were designed to work with receiver sensitivities 100 times better than the analog TV standard and that weather effects are minimal with UHF frequencies. There are real life user experiences proving that small indoor antennas can work in the GTA.

You've got to do better than hand waving if you want to prove your assertion. Just saying that there are losses in the receiver chain (duh) and that more signal is better (duh**2) is, to use your word, meaningless.
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post #381 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by weblurker View Post

I've read a number of reports about people being able to receive very distant transmitters from Rochester and Fort Erie during the summer, probably due to tropospheric ducting.

But that's only part of the story, or maybe none of the story. As I mentioned in my post, the issue is how much headroom does the Silver Sensor generate and is that headroom sufficient to overcome the variations in reception due to weather?

But I think this post from the thread you mentioned illustrates one user's experiences:

"Here in Minnesota, we get extremes of moisture content in the air. Dewpoints in the winter have actually been below zero, and in the summer as high as 86. While generally speaking, reception in the winter is better than in the summer, nothing beats a good tropospheric event to stretch the radio horizon. I've gotten UHF signals from over 250 miles away, clear as a bell, during tropospheric events which usually seem to happen on calm, hot and humid summer evenings more than any other time of year. "

(I added the boldface)

Two entirely different situations. Occasional summertime reception of transmitters 250 miles away does not mean that summer reception of local transmitters is necessarily better during the summer, simply because of geography. Local transmitters are probably too close for tropospheric ducting.



Well, duh. No offense, but your comment is insulting. I let it go the first time but not now, since you're brought it up again.

I've been watching cable TV for a long time, 30+ years. So have other HDTV Wonder users. I know what it means to have good, reliable TV. So does everyone else.

The problem with your argument is that it's based on thinking that people will put up with frequent HDTV program drop outs and not complain about it, after decades of watching zero drop out cable TV.

That idea might have worked in the 1950's when TV was new and people put up with bad reception because they didn't have anything else to compare it to, but not today, not even close.

You get HDTV for higher video and audio quality. What sense would it make to take the trouble to receive HDTV and put up with drop outs? But there is real life GTA user experiences with the Silver Sensor and the Radio Shack 1588 antenna that shows indoor antennas can work over the long term.

That's the point you keep missing. You're proposing a theory that an indoor antenna won't work when the real life experiences of actual HDTV viewers proves otherwise.



Where did I say that there are HDTV specific antennas?

Well, duh again.

Yes, I know that UHF signals are RF (you should have known that after reading the link I added about UHF signal degradation) and that there is no such thing as an HDTV antenna.

I tried very hard to explain why there can be a difference between digital UHF reception, or what the Silver Sensor was designed for, and analog UHF reception, what the 4228 was designed for.

As I said in my post, it appears that the digital UHF transmission standard has been designed for receivers about 100 times more sensitive than the 1949 VHF standard, which ought to mean that a smaller antenna should be able to receive an HDTV transmission whereas it would not be able to receive an analog UHF signal.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/8vsb.htm

That report, based on actual measurements, strongly supports the idea that small indoor antennas are quite capable of generating good, usable signals, which contradicts the point you're trying to make.

The author of that article is one of the technical writers for the HDTV Expert web page. Are you going to try to argue that he doesn't know that good HDTV reception means no drop outs?

The relevant quote from that article (among others) is this:
.............

"My first attempt at such an antenna delivered as promised and was built for $10 worth of hardware store parts. Pricey antennas don't mean a thing when it comes to DTV reception."
.............

That sums it up. Is it a waste to spend $1000+ on a tower+4228+rotator when you can spend zero extra dollars and use the Silver Sensor that comes with the HDTV Wonder? For most of the GTA, I strongly suspect so, but it depends on the front end of the receiver and local conditions, as always.

There is no question that the 4228 will generate a higher usable signal than the Silver Sensor. But this is the issue, does the Silver Sensor generate enough headroom to reliably receive all the Buffalo stations? Based on several user experiences in the GTA, it appears to be able to do the job.

If someone wants to spend money on a tower+antenna for what may be no reason other than to get a warm and fuzzy feeling that they're getting better reception, I can understand that. People buy insurance all the time.

But to extend that argument and say that you must or really ought to get a larger antenna when the engineering and real life data suggest otherwise, that's not correct thinking.

The idea that indoor antennas don't work reliably in the GTA appears to be wrong. I've brought to this discussion engineering data, that digital TV transmission standards were designed to work with receiver sensitivities 100 times better than the analog TV standard and that weather effects are minimal with UHF frequencies. There are real life user experiences proving that small indoor antennas can work in the GTA.

You've got to do better than hand waving if you want to prove your assertion. Just saying that there are losses in the receiver chain (duh) and that more signal is better (duh**2) is, to use your word, meaningless.

Weblurker -- you are perfectly free to do what you want. Try your antenna -- nobody is stopping you. Just make sure you can return it.

I'm sorry if you find my comments insulting, that not my intention.

I have a radio and communications background for over 30 years and I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to antennas. I wrote my thesis years ago about this subject.

I didn't have to spend $1000 on my antenna system. My total came to less than $200.

This site has an excellent comparison between antenna types:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
Look at all the links on this site.

In the Toronto area, you are in the deep fringe for Buffalo, specially the south stations. Try your indoor antenna and see if you get these. I don't put up with drop outs, that's what you will always have with fringe OTA. It's the rule of physics. The goal is to minimize it.

Take a pill and calm down. It's only TV.
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post #382 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by intrac View Post

Weblurker -- you are perfectly free to do what you want. Try your antenna -- nobody is stopping you. Just make sure you can return it.

I'm sorry if you find my comments insulting, that not my intention.

I have a radio and communications background for over 30 years and I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to antennas. I wrote my thesis years ago about this subject.

I didn't have to spend $1000 on my antenna system. My total came to less than $200.

This site has an excellent comparison between antenna types:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
Look at all the links on this site.

In the Toronto area, you are in the deep fringe for Buffalo, specially the south stations. Try your indoor antenna and see if you get these. I don't put up with drop outs, that's what you will always have with fringe OTA. It's the rule of physics. The goal is to minimize it.

Take a pill and calm down. It's only TV.

I read that article long ago and many others that were similar. Google is available to everyone.

Sorry, but I don't think you know enough about antennas, if anything at all.

If you did, you would have known the difference between digital and analog UHF transmission and the subsequent impact on antenna design. The 20 db difference in required s/n ratio is the decisive factor.

Look at the numbers. DTV requires 20 db less s/n ratio than analog UHF reception. The Silver Sensor has about 10 db less sensitivity than the 4228. So it's clear that for digital UHF reception the Silver Sensor is quite likely to perform as well as the 4228. This is borne out by actual user experiences with the Silver Sensor in the GTA.

That 20db difference means that Toronto isn't deep fringe for Buffalo for digital UHF reception. So your conclusion that you'll always have drop outs in deep fringe areas is correct, but not necessarily for Toronto. It's certainly going to be true for some place north of Toronto, but that wasn't what we were talking about.

I gave an eye witness report that the Silver Sensor has been found to work in the GTA and both the design criteria of the HDTV OTA transmssion system and actual user experiences support that idea. If you're going to go so far as to say my report was meaningless, you'd better have more than just hand waving to back up your assertion. Otherwise, all you're doing is misleading everyone in this forum.

In the past, a number of people said that you had to have a tower, a 4228 and a rotator in order to receive the Buffalo HDTV stations. For most of the GTA, that's simply not true. For you to say that a Silver Sensor would be inadequate in the GTA, that's not backed up by theory or actual data either, unless you can bring something new to the discussion. I'd be interested in seeing that.

Anyway, 'nuff said.
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post #383 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by weblurker View Post

I read that article long ago and many others that were similar. Google is available to everyone.

Sorry, but I don't think you know enough about antennas, if anything at all.

If you did, you would have known the difference between digital and analog UHF transmission and the subsequent impact on antenna design. The 20 db difference in required s/n ratio is the decisive factor.

Look at the numbers. DTV requires 20 db less s/n ratio than analog UHF reception. The Silver Sensor has about 10 db less sensitivity than the 4228. So it's clear that for digital UHF reception the Silver Sensor is quite likely to perform as well as the 4228. This is borne out by actual user experiences with the Silver Sensor in the GTA.

That 20db difference means that Toronto isn't deep fringe for Buffalo for digital UHF reception. So your conclusion that you'll always have drop outs in deep fringe areas is correct, but not necessarily for Toronto. It's certainly going to be true for some place north of Toronto, but that wasn't what we were talking about.

I gave an eye witness report that the Silver Sensor has been found to work in the GTA and both the design criteria of the HDTV OTA transmssion system and actual user experiences support that idea. If you're going to go so far as to say my report was meaningless, you'd better have more than just hand waving to back up your assertion. Otherwise, all you're doing is misleading everyone in this forum.

In the past, a number of people said that you had to have a tower, a 4228 and a rotator in order to receive the Buffalo HDTV stations. For most of the GTA, that's simply not true. For you to say that a Silver Sensor would be inadequate in the GTA, that's not backed up by theory or actual data either, unless you can bring something new to the discussion. I'd be interested in seeing that.

Anyway, 'nuff said.

Well I'm certainly glad to have an expert like you on here that knows more than anybody else on this and other sites. I look forward to all of your wisdom and hope you have many happy experinces with your sliver sensor.

As you say -- 'nuff said.
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post #384 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 05:14 PM
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What direction is your CM4228 pointing? The first thing is direction -- and I suspect from your area you should be pointing S.S.E. Then if you get the Buffalo channels with low signal levels, then a pre-amp.

I don't want to sound condescending, but the screen part is the reflector and should be facing N.N.W, while the 8 -X's, the directors, should be facing S.S.E. I've heard of many people not knowing this and not aimimg their antenna properly.

Thanks for the reply.

I have the antenna pointing SSE. That is the direction the directors (didn't know they were called that) are pointed. Maybe I just have to live with the fact reception is bad in my area. I guess CBC and CTV must have stronger signals that the others. I'd be happy if I could get the other Toronto channels let alone the Buffalo ones.

James

There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity. You can't take the sky from me.
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post #385 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 05:32 PM
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Thanks for the reply.

I have the antenna pointing SSE. That is the direction the directors (didn't know they were called that) are pointed. Maybe I just have to live with the fact reception is bad in my area. I guess CBC and CTV must have stronger signals that the others. I'd be happy if I could get the other Toronto channels let alone the Buffalo ones.

James

CBC, CTV, and CITY are all on the CN Tower. CKXT (Toronto1) is nearby, but not on the tower.

There is a good map here showing the distances, etc. http://www.remotecentral.com/hdtv/index.html

Is it possible for you to get a chimney mount to give you some extra height? Are you in a valley?
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post #386 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 08:01 PM
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I think we need a limit on long posts.
at least, quoting long posts................

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
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post #387 of 1166 Old 07-27-2005, 10:55 PM
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According to the FCC website CKXT-DT is broadcasting from the CN Tower, while CKXT-TV is on First Canadian Place.
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post #388 of 1166 Old 07-28-2005, 05:17 PM
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CBC, CTV, and CITY are all on the CN Tower. CKXT (Toronto1) is nearby, but not on the tower.

There is a good map here showing the distances, etc. http://www.remotecentral.com/hdtv/index.html

Is it possible for you to get a chimney mount to give you some extra height? Are you in a valley?

I put up a temporary pole which makes the antenna about the hieght of where it would be should I attach it to my chiminey. I could add another 10' piece and see where that get's me. I think my area is sort of a large valley. Heck, I'm just of Pine Valley Dr. Starting to understand how it got it's name!

James

There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity. You can't take the sky from me.
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I put up a temporary pole which makes the antenna about the hieght of where it would be should I attach it to my chiminey. I could add another 10' piece and see where that get's me. I think my area is sort of a large valley. Heck, I'm just of Pine Valley Dr. Starting to understand how it got it's name!

James

I assume your getting nothing at that height. You could try another 10'. Nothing to lose.
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post #390 of 1166 Old 07-28-2005, 05:55 PM
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Hello to all,

Sorry to go off topic, but the sticky said not to create a newe post so here goes.

I have recently read that CBC will increase it's HD content for NHL games. Any idea, rumours, etc if and when Windsor will be able to receive it OTA?

Thanks,

Go Habs Go
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