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post #8701 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ejb1980 View Post
.

I realize that that was a long post about out of market stations. But it goes to show that sometimes the location of a sweet spot is in a far-from-logical place.
My problem was caused by a mathematics error that I made in the derived impedance that I used to build the antenna. This is why rebuilt the driven element by changing the length of the copper loop and electrically floating it. The mark II antena works fine in either location. The engineer in me doesn't like to rely on assumptions which is why I kept at it until I discovered what was causing my problem. i.e. Theory did not match tested results.

IMO strange unexplainable things & sweet spots are almost always caused by something real, but unknown. With antenna installs, I'd say that 99x out of 100 it's either due to the wrong antenna, cabling, and unknowns related to indoor/attic installs. The first two are easy to deal with. The latter....????

This is why I don't recommend attic installs and nobody else should who claims to know something about it. Sure, it can be made to work but for anyone wanting to just watch TV without a research project should expect on going issues if they go there. A few will get lucky but gambling is something I'd rather do at a craps table. Spending a day in a hot attic, pulling cable, etc. can be quite a let down when the results don't match the expectations.

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post #8702 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by hamstang View Post
Today I noticed what I think is a radar dome on a tower near the Oakdale section of NW Charlotte. The round dome is too small to be a water tower I think. Would that be related to weather radar and any of the Charlotte TV News Departments?
The Charlotte Terminal Doppler Weather Radar, installed by the FAA, is in the area, off Miranda Rd. near Beatties Ford Rd.

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/gsp/tdwr/info/specs.html
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post #8703 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post
My problem was caused by a mathematics error that I made in the derived impedance that I used to build the antenna. .

You didn't double check the math before construction? Isn't that a basic engineering tenet? That could have been costly had it made it to the production line....

Bob

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post #8704 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post
You didn't double check the math before construction? Isn't that a basic engineering tenet? That could have been costly had it made it to the production line....
I have a copy of Antenna Theory and Design, by Stutzman and Thiele. The copy I have has a floppy disk in the back cover for formulas. That and a TI-83 Calculator were mandatory for my old classes.

Bob helped me with my MPEG classes because there are things implied that are not explained in classes that well.

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post #8705 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by blackcap93 View Post
The Charlotte Terminal Doppler Weather Radar, installed by the FAA, is in the area, off Miranda Rd. near Beatties Ford Rd.

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/gsp/tdwr/info/specs.html
Thanks, blackcap93. Excellent info.
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post #8706 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 06:29 AM
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You didn't double check the math before construction? Isn't that a basic engineering tenet? That could have been costly had it made it to the production line....
Well.... happens to the best of us. Was using mm (metric) and mils (US customary) at the same time. Got me sums mixed up. Why? Because I like to figure it in metric but I like to measure it in American.

NASA crashed the $330M Mars Climate Orbiter into Mars because they mixed up metric measurements with US measurements. Took the rocket scientists longer to figure it out than me.
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post #8707 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 06:34 AM
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Yea, I hear ya. There are no original mistakes. Even the best of us sometime forget to measure twice and cut once, as my grandpa would say.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
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post #8708 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ybsane View Post
.....That and a TI-83 Calculator were mandatory for my old classes.

....
Fancy calculator.. I lifted a lot of boxes into the back of trucks at UPS to afford one of these dinosaurs. (sort of wish I still had it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-59_/_TI-58

Though there are is always this. There are still some around that insist that only real men use them.

Your Granddaddy's calc
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post #8709 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post
Fancy calculator.. I lifted a lot of boxes into the back of trucks at UPS to afford one of these dinosaurs. (sort of wish I still had it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-59_/_TI-58

Though there are is always this. There are still some around that insist that only real men use them.

Your Granddaddy's calc
That is my Dad's Calculator and he still has it, He worked for GE/Westinghouse as an Engineer and his favorite item is a tube checker he got when our old Drug Store closed down.

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post #8710 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 08:30 AM
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..... He worked for GE/Westinghouse as an Engineer and his favorite item is a tube checker he got when our old Drug Store closed down.
I don't remember what happened to it, except that TI calculators had a reputation at that time for developing key bounce issues.

I had a professor once who stuck a vacuum tube circuit on a final exam. He got a lot of complaints about that since transistors had replaced them by decades. I never had much of an an appreciation for them until a few years ago when I saw someone make one in a back yard and then demonstrate what could be done with it.

I would love to have a box of large nixies from the 70s.

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post #8711 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post
You didn't double check the math before construction? Isn't that a basic engineering tenet? That could have been costly had it made it to the production line....
Most people don't realize there are mathematics and physics involved. They just want to throw up some random antenna in the attic and magically expect it to work. Sometimes they will luck out, but not always. I realize there is engineering science involved, but I don't claim to understand it. I just have a little bit of consumer experience with various antennas over the years.
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post #8712 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 10:37 AM
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Most people don't even want to go to that trouble. I installed an attic antenna for my retired IBM engineer father-in law who did not want it on the roof. Perfect reception on all locals all the time..because he did not want to pay DirecTv. He finally decided it was too much trouble to be switching between Tv and DirecTv..(truth be known probably more my mother in-law than he)..and went back to paying for the locals based soley on operational convenience.

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post #8713 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 12:36 PM
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Hmm. I was under the impression that an antenna could be hooked directly to a DTV receiver and it would integrate the channels into its EPG. This works well on Dish. (well except for missing guide data on some subchannels)
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post #8714 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post
Hmm. I was under the impression that an antenna could be hooked directly to a DTV receiver and it would integrate the channels into its EPG. This works well on Dish. (well except for missing guide data on some subchannels)
I think you would need a ADD On Box to receive the OTA with Directv AM21 box

see
https://support.directv.com/app/answ...r-tuner-manual
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post #8715 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 12:56 PM
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Yes, I have one on one of my 4 receivers. Tho if I am correct not all models support it.

Bob

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post #8716 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 01:20 PM
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I can see where they would drop support since you really don't have the option anymore not to pay for local stations.
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post #8717 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 01:49 PM
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I can see where they would drop support since you really don't have the option anymore not to pay for local stations.
Amazing how that works isn't it? Of course, if I had spent a fortune on infrastructure and satellite bandwidth to carry the locals I would not want to enable someone to get it for free with an add on tuner either.
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post #8718 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 04:14 PM
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Amazing how that works isn't it? Of course, if I had spent a fortune on infrastructure and satellite bandwidth to carry the locals I would not want to enable someone to get it for free with an add on tuner either.
Sure you would, if if it enabled you to pull in customers. It's called competition.

Can't speak for DTV, but I do remember Charlie Ergen speaking on this at one time. Saying something that like he didn't really care to deal with the broadcasters and their 1950s business model. i.e. He could distribute ABC, CBS, FOX, etc. to the entire country with their tech.
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post #8719 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 04:32 PM
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Yes, I have one on one of my 4 receivers. Tho if I am correct not all models support it.
I think the SD receivers don't support it. With the Genie units, one AM21 unit will bring OTA channels to all TVs connected to the Genie via the client receivers.
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post #8720 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 04:44 PM
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I think the SD receivers don't support it. With the Genie units, one AM21 unit will bring OTA channels to all TVs connected to the Genie via the client receivers.
Is the AM21 unit an antenna, or is it merely something that allows you to integrate the channels that you receive via your own antenna with the channels that DirecTV supplies via satellite? DirecTV does not provide all of the programming that the local broadcast stations are broadcasting. Usually DirecTV is not willing to use up bandwidth to carry the subchannels.
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post #8721 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 05:19 PM
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Is the AM21 unit an antenna, or is it merely something that allows you to integrate the channels that you receive via your own antenna with the channels that DirecTV supplies via satellite? DirecTV does not provide all of the programming that the local broadcast stations are broadcasting. Usually DirecTV is not willing to use up bandwidth to carry the subchannels.
The AM21 is not an antenna. It connects to an external antenna. The device integrates the OTA signals into the guide. I will attach a pic from my phone. The guide data is what comes from the satellite.

The trouble is, the AM21's database hasn't been updated in a long time so there are missing subchannels. In the pic, you see 20-4 KTMW. When I actually tune there, it's WCWG's Bounce TV. When setting up the AM21, you input zip codes. That's how it matches the guide data. A Greensboro DMA zip code will match 20-1 (not shown, I use the Directv feed in my guide), 20-2, and 20-3 but it will not display 20-4 because it doesn't have info for it. There is a long process to force in other zip codes and channels (like I have) that I will not get into because it won't make sense to someone who doesn't have one. The AM21 barely makes sense to anyone. There was a brief time when Genie receivers would display all scanned stations and those not found would not have guide info, just "Regular schedule" on the guide. That was much better in most peoples opinion.

There is 16-5 and 16-6 OTA, too. They are HSN and QVC which have Directv feeds, aka those with different phone numbers.
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post #8722 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 05:24 PM
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AM21 pic
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post #8723 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 05:30 PM
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It can be quite cluttered without a custom list.
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post #8724 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 05:35 PM
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The trouble is, the AM21's database hasn't been updated in a long time so there are missing subchannels. In the pic, you see 20-4 KTMW..
Utah???
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post #8725 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ejb1980 View Post
There is a long process to force in other zip codes and channels (like I have) that I will not get into because it won't make sense to someone who doesn't have one. The AM21 barely makes sense to anyone
I have a friend who has one in his Rv who travels nationwide, so am very familiar with the forcing. Guess they really want to pull in those customers!

Bob

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post #8726 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by veedon View Post
Utah???
Yes. Somehwere in Directv's darkest corner, someone made a list of subchannels to add to the AM21. Originally, it was intended to be a quick way to get many customers HD locals in areas where Directv had not added HD locals yet. Of course, anyone could buy one. All markets are in the database, most primary full-power locals, and subchannels that have always been there (not sure when they stopped updating). Low Power channels are only included most of the time if they are a major network. The list of the OTA subchannel database is on DBStalk.

These are missing on mine:
16-5 QVC
16-6 HSN
20-4 Bounce
22-2 Zuus Country (although sometimes an incorrectly entered UNC station appears instead)
40-2 Unimas HD (this was in the database until this past Saturday. Now, it's gone...)
40-3 Bounce
40-4 GetTV
43-3 TCT Kids
43-4 ABN
48-2 GetTV

I run the AM21 with my home zip (Greensboro DMA) and second zip (Raleigh DMA). Then, run it again with Roanoke VA DMA zip and Los Angeles. Los Angeles adds most of the missing channels. You get guide data for the wrong channel, but you can at least manually record from the channel. Then I run the initial set again with Salt Lake City and Fresno, CA. Then finally again with Greensboro and Raleigh. RF and PSIP can mess with it a little. Example: KTBN LA is RF 33, like WMYV Greensboro so KTBN shows on 48-2. Since WMYV 48-1 is in the database, that channel does show correctly. Forcing as few zips as possible makes it mess up less. I don't always have that many.

Note: I have learned that if you force zips and leave two forced zips as the last run, those are the final two markets that will default after a power outage, reset, software update. With channels 2, 5, 11, 22, 40, etc in my regular lineup, All LA guide data would show up. To fully reset an AM21 is a true pain, but I finally got it to how it like it.

I highly recommend anyone with Directv go get the AM21 but just keep it basic with the two zips. It's a great way to get most subchannels and locals during storms. For those of us who like to tinker, the AM21 can give something to tinker with, especially fpr you with other markets nearby in the Charlotte area.
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post #8727 of 8974 Old 09-02-2014, 08:51 PM
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I have a friend who has one in his Rv who travels nationwide, so am very familiar with the forcing. Guess they really want to pull in those customers!
I chose to use all stations that start with K for my forced subchannels. Easier to say "all the stations with a K and a dash in the number have incorrect guide data" to someone than try to explain RF signals, AM21, PSIP, and that you can acually use an antenna get TV.
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post #8728 of 8974 Old 09-03-2014, 02:44 AM
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I have a friend who has one in his Rv who travels nationwide, so am very familiar with the forcing. Guess they really want to pull in those customers!
Well the point missed, apparently, is the traditional TV industry isn't looking to compete given all the laws and schemes on the books to protect from having to do so. DTV is looking to merge with AT&T as the CEO gets a $22M payout when it happens. It's the same with TWC/Comcast. TWC CEO gets a huge payout. Why worry about what the customers want?

Unlike the old days days of competition, the customers are considered a necessary annoyance. Just one step above the rank and file which are considered an "expense" and something to reduce.

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post #8729 of 8974 Old 09-03-2014, 04:14 AM
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I get the feeling that WJZY went off the air about an hour ago. Not getting any signal at all.
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post #8730 of 8974 Old 09-03-2014, 05:40 AM
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Speaking of sweet spots, do any of you know about channel 28.1 and 28.2 (same 480i programming on both of them) from Gastonia? Mostly religious programming, but in the middle of the night and during some evenings, they show movies. You also get Bonanza on Saturday afternoons sometimes. I reference "sweet spot" because their coverage area seems to be just a few miles, but with my HD antenna pointed right at that area, I can get it most of the time, with a signal strength ranging from about 10 to about 30.

http://www.wordnet.org/tv.html
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