I want my HD cam! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 05-26-2001, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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One more item not often mentioned that would really help the growth of HDTV would be consumer level camcorders that do 1080i. If you think that is a ways off most of these megapixel CCDs even in digital still cameras are actually video CCDs. Two: the original DV spec was designed as a recording medium for HDTV (the old NHK spec)though I would think an HD DV camera would just stream CBR MPEG-2. I suspect that Sony, Canon, and others have something in the works and may be waiting for the Firewire sets to hit the market since component out wouldn't exactly be an elegant solution for a camcorder http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

OTOH, many of us video enthusiasts are still waiting for a consumer level native 16:9 camera since most just take the middle 360 lines of a 4:3 CD to create an anamorphic 16:9 image http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif The jury isn't in yet on the new JVC JY_VS200 targeted for the "Indie" market as to whether it has a 16:9 CCD even though the JVC rep implied it is.

Thoughts?

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post #2 of 18 Old 05-26-2001, 09:24 PM
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Brian,
I completely agree!
Would give that miniature VHS format a real shot in the arm, recording DVHS with playback through your DVHS deck.
JVC came out with two digital still cameras that output 1080i on component. Problem is they do not output 16:9.
Technology is already there; would expect to see a release for at least the Japanese market in the next year or so. Firewire ported STBs, DVHS VCRs, and PVRs are already proliferating in Japan.

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post #3 of 18 Old 05-29-2001, 12:48 AM
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Amen!! A 1080i/p camcorder for under $1200 would be a dream come true, but in the mean time give me three half inch widescrean CCD's and good 480p PQ for under $5000 and I'll be quite content. Throw in component connections and my 65H80 will think it's just another progressive DVD player. I've actually avoided purchasing a camcorder at all until such a unit is available.

-Tim

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post #4 of 18 Old 05-30-2001, 06:44 PM
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Right now you can rent a Sony HDTV camcorder (http://www.donlinte.com/level2/sony_hdwf900.htm) for $1500...per day. It might be a few years before the industry wants us to purchase equipment meant for studios/broadcasters/production houses.
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post #5 of 18 Old 05-31-2001, 02:45 AM
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Thank you for the info about renting. I will keep it in mind should the *special* occasion come up.

I would like to take this opportunity to correct myself. When I said, "A 1080i/p camcorder for under $1200 would be a dream come true..." I should have said $12000, not 1200. I originally left of a zero.

Thanks again
-Tim

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post #6 of 18 Old 05-31-2001, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I will stick to my guns that there will be a consumer HD camera for under $3K. And later even cheaper. These will be single CCD units and maybe you'll only be able to do 20 minutes on a tape but then you can only do 11 minutes with 35mm film magazine.

- Brian
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post #7 of 18 Old 06-01-2001, 09:34 AM
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This is slightly off-subject but I can't find a better place to ask this question. I need to replace a (stolen) Hi8 consumer camcorder (I mean...stolen FROM me, not stolen BY me!) and I'm leaning toward the Sony DCR PC110 miniDV camcorder, which features a "16:9 mode." Does anyone know exactly how this camera achieves this? Is it via electronic "anamorphic" compression/expansion or does it just record black bars at the top and bottom of a 4:3 image?

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[This message has been edited by Dave McRoy (edited 06-01-2001).]

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post #8 of 18 Old 06-01-2001, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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To my knowledge the 110 takes a 16:9 area CCD approximately 360 lines high and stretches that to a 480 line anamorphic image just like a lot of other camcorders. I hear there are a few that do the masking thing but even my cheap Sony TR-7000 does an anamorphic image instead of a 16:9 mask. We are still waiting for a consumer camera that takes it's image from a 480 line CCD (which would also have to have 848 pixel horizontal resolution which gets compressed to 720 pixels in the anamorphic image).

And waiting and waiting and waiting....

- Brian

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post #9 of 18 Old 06-03-2001, 09:35 PM
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I own a small video production company (in addition to being a custom H/T installer). Here's the story. I think we all know that the technology exist (today) for an HDTV consumer cam...But don't hold your breath... Sony,JVC et al have broadcast divisions that spend at a minimum $7000 to $50,000 on their broadcast non HDTV cameras TODAY. HDTV cameras currently are $50,000 and up ! But don't be discouraged miniDV/DVCAM to the rescue. The best currently so far is the Sony PD150 (List $4500...street $3500 ) or it's 1st cousin VX2000 about $1000 less. Gourgeous picture! Already used by lots of broadcasters (shhh...Don't tell or they might raise the prices).
And just a side note. I've used an HDTV broadcast camera....Great picture when lit correctly. Horrible in low lite though.
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post #10 of 18 Old 06-04-2001, 12:46 AM
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I wouldn't expect to see a 1080i camera at a consumer price any time soon. But I do expect to see a 720P camera. This is probably wishful thinking, but I'd imagine that Canon could come out with a 720P version of their XL-1. Canon only makes broadcast and industrial lenses, no cameras, so they don't have an broadcast/professional market to worry about cannibalizing. The XL-1 lens system is sharp enough to resolve 720p, and 720 x 1280 CCDs are more reasonable to produce than 1080 x 1920. MiniDV tape should be able to hold an hour or more of 720P MPEG2, as opposed to the much less efficient DV format.

I'll admit I've been bugging a friend at Canon about this idea for the past year or two, and he won't say if they're considering this or not. Personally, I think it would sell wonderfully at $6000.

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post #11 of 18 Old 06-04-2001, 08:10 AM
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Thanks for the replay, Brian. I think I'll go with the 110. Maybe the sub $2k consumer HD camcorder will debut by the time the 110 dies!

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post #12 of 18 Old 06-04-2001, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Of course I have heard the arguments that companies like Sony, Panasonic, etc. don't want to undercut their professional sales with consumer cameras that do true 16:9 or HD. But they sometimes put out "niche" stuff that goes or doesn't go. What I know of these companies from working with them in the software world is often some product group comes up with an idea and if it gets approved it gets developed and possibly makes it to market. mini-DV was a product that made it into the consumer market probably faster than expected.

- Brian
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post #13 of 18 Old 06-04-2001, 04:48 PM
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Dave,

While Sony (and other miniDV) cameras have a 16:9 mode, it essentially does the other Brian said (masks the CCD, then stretches it vertically.

You lose resolution, and gain zero picture information on the sides.

If you do want to do true 16:9, you either need a pro camera with 16:9 CCD, or an anamorphic lense (which I use) that optically compresses the image.

With the lense, you gain information on the sides, and use all the pixels on the CCD. Check out the Optex lense or Century Optics. They're about $800.

-Brian

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post #14 of 18 Old 06-04-2001, 05:21 PM
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When speaking to one of the "higher-ups" at Panasonic at NAB about HDTV, I brought up the question of consumer HDTV. He said he had heard rumors that some products will be demoed at CES this January. Not necessarily from Panasonic though.

As for undercutting their pro lines, he said that consumer HD would most likely be single chip with inferior lenses, and no "pro" would even consider them.

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post #15 of 18 Old 06-05-2001, 07:30 AM
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Thanks for the lead on anamorphic lenses, Brian.

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post #16 of 18 Old 06-05-2001, 07:44 AM
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Please DON'T give us a cheap home HDTV camcorder.

We don't need any more "America's Cheesiest Home Videos", with crooked horizons, lousy focus, bad lighting, and kids pouring their breakfast over their heads, especially in HD http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif .

(Of course, this MIGHT be the only way we'll ever get HDTV on FOX !!)

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post #17 of 18 Old 06-05-2001, 09:09 AM
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Hmmm, for a 16:9 widescreen lens adapter from www.centuryoptics.com it looks like the Sony DCR-TRV900 might be my best choice since there doesn't seem to be a 16:9 adapter available for ultra-minis like the DCR-PC110.

The Century Optics site has a little feature that attempts to give you a sense of the difference between just using the cameras built-in 16:9 mode vs. using one of their lens adapters.

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post #18 of 18 Old 06-05-2001, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Ken,

We'll keep that in mind when the consumer HD cams show up on the market and you resist the temptation to get one http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif. BTW, VHS is about to get replaced as the distribution source for home videos. Look for those stunning 2 hour productions (low bitrate obviously) coming to you on DVD-R.

As for true 16:9 consumer cameras we've been asking for them for years and still no response from the manufacturers. It can't be that difficult or expensive to do. There is quite a thread building up over at DV.com on their forum regarding the JVC JY VS-200U:

http://www.dv.com/db_area/community/...ML/001421.html

Jury is still out and reps are still unclear when discussing this camera (which DOES sound like a the DV2000 with a black case). Check JVC's "hype" here:

http://www.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/p...&feature_id=08

I too was considering a Sony VX2000 with the Century Optics adapter (an external LCD monitor that expands the image is also recommended by folks who use this combo). But I have this funny feeling that any day now.... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

- Brian

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