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post #1 of 17 Old 08-30-2001, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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European labs keep improving OFDM capabilities. Just a few months ago diversity chips were introduced that will improve COFDM reception by from a reported 6 to 9 dB. Now Nokia reports futher improvemants using a technique they have been developing called Partial Response Signalling that adds another 5 dB. Remember the one big advantage that 8-VSB claimed was a lab report that showed COFDM suffered from a 2 to 4 dB disadvantage. This was never shown in the real world however though an open invitation to do so stands in Toronto. I wonder what the reality of combining both the Partial Response and diversity breakthroughs would mean to the overall increase in receptablility of OFDM technologies?
http://www.eet.com/story/OEG20010829S0035

One of the frustrations of testing 8-VSB in Toronto is the impossibility of getting the latest 8-VSB receivers. They will only be supplied under conditions of non-disclosure or the promise not to directly compare them with COFDM receivers. We ourselves will have an 8-VSB tuner for the DVT-A1 PCMCIA card in October and will be able to directly compare it to the DVT-A1 with a COFDM tuner.

I think they have had the same problem in Argentina getting 8-VSB receivers.
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post #2 of 17 Old 08-30-2001, 10:02 PM
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WHY, WHY bring up this DEAD issue once more! 8VSB is the US standard plain and simple!

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post #3 of 17 Old 08-30-2001, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by FrankS:
WHY, WHY bring up this DEAD issue once more! 8VSB is the US standard plain and simple!
Not talking about the US standard. The world is a big place. HDTV will be delivered with a different standard in most if not all other countries. This forum is not just about the US. Interested parties from Europe, China, Australia and many other places frequent this forum.

This is pertinent info on what is happening in other countries.

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post #4 of 17 Old 08-31-2001, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Miller:
Not talking about the US standard. The world is a big place. HDTV will be delivered with a different standard in most if not all other countries. This forum is not just about the US. Interested parties from Europe, China, Australia and many other places frequent this forum.

This is pertinent info on what is happening in other countries.

Mr. Moderator,
is it possible to start a "HDTV INTERNATIONAL" forum to avoid these conflicts? It would give our fellow non-USA members a dedicated place.



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post #5 of 17 Old 08-31-2001, 08:13 AM
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That's a great idea. (Either that or throw Miller off the forum again) http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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post #6 of 17 Old 08-31-2001, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by kippjones:
Mr. Moderator,
is it possible to start a "HDTV INTERNATIONAL" forum to avoid these conflicts? It would give our fellow non-USA members a dedicated place.


That's OK by me but I thought that the AVSFORUM is a "HDTV International" forum. Most of the products are sold internationally, you have a world clock under services at the top of the site, the issues of cable and satellite span the globe and you might be surprised how many visitors from around the world lurk here even though they are often imtimidated from posting by some members.

It also makes sense that if you want to promote HDTV you should want to see as much activity around the world as possible.

I don't see any conflict at all. The US has chosen 8-VSB. That's fine but most other countries have chosen DVB-T and some are still in the process of making a decision.

Even in the US it is acknowledged that 8-VSB has major problems since they are trying to fix it as soon as possible. I would like to see other countries not make the same mistake that the US did. Other than that I am fine with 8-VSB in the US as I have said many times.

The fact that COFDM DVB-T is improving should be seen as a plus by anyone advocating HDTV since it makes it cheaper to deploy HDTV around the world. Where is there a conflict in that? It seems to me that it is simply good HDTV news.

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post #7 of 17 Old 08-31-2001, 10:36 AM
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I agree with Bob. A breakthrough with chips from other standards could lead to a similar breakthrough for the US standard. I believe his post on this subject in this forum is appropriate as this is the HDTV General Chit-Chat Forum. Sorry, U.S. Only does not appear in the title. If the information is of no interest to you, just ignore it.

Slow news lately is starting to make the members of OAVS a little cranky and nit picking at every little thing. Let the Moderators do their job. Why suggest someone get kicked, banned, etc, because of 1 post you found of no value. If 1 person finds any value, it was a good post. I found the information interesting.

I guess I will get suggested for booting next for siding with Bob.

Value everyone's opinions and hopefully, the will reciprocate.

Lets keep the Forum friendly.
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post #8 of 17 Old 09-02-2001, 08:01 PM
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As a telecommunications enthusiast and a relative newcomer to HDTV (I have a Toshiba DW65X91 receiver) I recently discovered this interesting thread.

In my opinion, different standards and ensuing commercial political technical disagreements over the years have caused the consumer to suffer, i.e. the AM stereo debacle (Motorola vs Kahn) the various cell phone standards (TDMA, CDMA, GSM).

Other differences such as 110 volt versus 240 volt, 50 Hz vs 60 Hz, PAL vs SECAM vs NTSC, The telephone system SONET versus SDH etc., etc. might be thought of as more protectionism of national telecommunication industries or TV manufacturers (the latter failed as the Japanese became the winners).

I therefore surfed and found an interesting US Government FCC study on the subject:
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineeri...uments/reports

The report finds that both transmission methods have their advantages and disadvantages. COFDM has the advantage of resisting multipath, but suffers from a smaller coverage area than 8VSB and is susceptible to impulse noise. 8VSB has a greater coverage area and is more cost effective, and less resistant to multipath but more immune to impulse noise than COFDM.

COFDM is more attractive in a mobile environment (although I have seen some cars that have horrible impulse noise problems). The report also notes that broadcast equipment manufacturers are working on adaptive equalization techniques with 8VSB which will eventually help to reduce the effects of multipath.

The main thing is that, like it or not, the FCC has recommended that the 8VSB standard be retained.

So, I'm pleased that my HDTV works, and I'm pleased that I learnt something new from these discussions!

Keep the dialog going!

-Zyg-
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post #9 of 17 Old 09-03-2001, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zyg:
As a telecommunications enthusiast and a relative newcomer to HDTV (I have a Toshiba DW65X91 receiver) I recently discovered this interesting thread.

In my opinion, different standards and ensuing commercial political technical disagreements over the years have caused the consumer to suffer, i.e. the AM stereo debacle (Motorola vs Kahn) the various cell phone standards (TDMA, CDMA, GSM).

Other differences such as 110 volt versus 240 volt, 50 Hz vs 60 Hz, PAL vs SECAM vs NTSC, The telephone system SONET versus SDH etc., etc. might be thought of as more protectionism of national telecommunication industries or TV manufacturers (the latter failed as the Japanese became the winners).

I therefore surfed and found an interesting US Government FCC study on the subject:
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineeri...uments/reports

The report finds that both transmission methods have their advantages and disadvantages. COFDM has the advantage of resisting multipath, but suffers from a smaller coverage area than 8VSB and is susceptible to impulse noise. 8VSB has a greater coverage area and is more cost effective, and less resistant to multipath but more immune to impulse noise than COFDM.

COFDM is more attractive in a mobile environment (although I have seen some cars that have horrible impulse noise problems). The report also notes that broadcast equipment manufacturers are working on adaptive equalization techniques with 8VSB which will eventually help to reduce the effects of multipath.

The main thing is that, like it or not, the FCC has recommended that the 8VSB standard be retained.

So, I'm pleased that my HDTV works, and I'm pleased that I learnt something new from these discussions!

Keep the dialog going!

-Zyg-
Zyg,

Unfortunatly anything that you learn at the FCC site is not reliable. The FCC is deficient in its ability to test or monitor current technology. The current Chairman has admitted as much to Congress and asked for more funds to bring it up to date. Because of this and Congressional pressure the FCC is not able to do it's job. It has ignored what is happening in the rest of the world and made decisions based on undue influence by industry organizations and individual companies such as Zenith.

What you "learned" in the document that you mention can be unlearned if you are interested in the reality of the current situation. The 8-VSB modulation scheme has no advantages over COFDM. It does have many disadvantages.

In other countries where the interest of the public where championed first COFDM has been chosen.

I would like to know what you think of the differences between these two modulation schemes after looking at a few sites listed here.

Australia http://www.365broadcast.com/dtv_reso...#_Toc437081523

Mexico http://web-star.com/hdtv/DVB-T20Mexico.html

History ending with re-affirmation of 8-VSB in US http://web-star.com/hdtv/cofdmvs8vsb.html

The organization that has successfully championed the DVB standard for Cable, Satellite and Terrestrial broadcasting around the world. http://www.DVB.org/ http://www.dvb.org/news/index.html

Internationally there is no contest. All countries that have chosen COFDM DVB-T are content. All countries that have chosen 8-VSB are either still testing or have active opposition to 8-VSB. These include the US, Canada and S. Korea. Canada and S. Korea are testing COFDM and 8-VSB. S. Korea because it is the home of Zenith which ownes the PR on 8-VSB.

Canada will delay and delay and then either allow COFDM, switch to COFDM or re allocate it's TV spectrum to something different like datacasting. IMHO.

S. Korea is probably the only country to stick to 8-VSB to the end with the US.

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post #10 of 17 Old 09-03-2001, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don Landis:
This is the general HDTV chit chart forum. I don't see anything wrong with Bob tooting his horn on his favorite topic any more than if I wanted to complain ad nauseum about other stuff that does not exist in the USA in this forum section. If you all don't care to read it then you don't have to post in his threads. If nobody posts then Bob will eventually lose interest and stop waisting his time on a subject that no one cares about. The fact that people do respond here indicates to him that there are a few that do care about what he has to say.

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Good point. I have never responded to one of this guy's posts but I agree with you 100% that he should be allowed to toot his horn somewhere. Different points of view are healthy and should be tolerated.
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post #11 of 17 Old 09-03-2001, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zyg:
Bob:

Thank you for the web references, I will peruse them in detail later. In the meantime, would you have a URL for further information on Zenith pushing "with undue influence" for the 8VSB standard.

I was surprised, as I quickly scanned one of the sites, where it indicated that Europe was not implementing HDTV, but only DTV - I guess I have to dig deeper!

Fascinating stuff.

-Zyg-
Europe went for HDTV earlier and failed. They then set up the DVB group to co-ordinate the DTV transition and develop standards for what turns out to be most of the countries in the world who have chosen a DTV path so far. The fact that some of the early countries to go digital have opted for not doing HDTV does not close the doors on them switching to HDTV in the future since DVB-T allows for HDTV. In fact later countries who are opting for DVB-T are considering HDTV or have adopted it like Australia for example. I fully expect that Europe will adopt HDTV later. If the US allowed DVB-T that would happen much sooner. We would immedialtely become the leader in the DTV transition and all other countries would follow. That would mean HDTV worldwide much sooner.

As for Zenith having to much influence on the testing that the NAB and MSTV did from August of 2000 till November I would refer you to the test results that detail the involvement of Zenith in the tests and you be the judge. They admit what they did right in the test results. The rest I will send to you privatly or this thread will be cut.

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post #12 of 17 Old 09-03-2001, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don Landis:
This is the general HDTV chit chart forum. I don't see anything wrong with Bob tooting his horn on his favorite topic any more than if I wanted to complain ad nauseum about other stuff that does not exist in the USA in this forum section. If you all don't care to read it then you don't have to post in his threads. If nobody posts then Bob will eventually lose interest and stop waisting his time on a subject that no one cares about. The fact that people do respond here indicates to him that there are a few that do care about what he has to say.
Don is right if I get no response I will not post. BTW I am not commenting on the US standard or what we don't have in the US. I am trying to talk about what is happening in other countries since most of the world is going a different way. If HDTV is to succeed it will need to be more widespread than just the USA. At least the more widespread the better I would think.

Quite often in response I get statements like Don's "stop waisting his time on a subject that no one cares about". It is like a secret code meant to intimidate other who might be interested in responding from doing so by implying that Don speaks for "the group" and the group is not interested. How Don knows this I don't know. I do know that people are interested because I have quite a number who contact me privately and most tell of not wanting to respond on AVSFORUM because of this "understanding". Many are not Americans.

Even those who do respond here often feel compelled to apologize for being interested in what I have to say. Quite intimidating.

So I ask the question again, is this a parochial US forum or an International Forum on the promotion of HDTV?
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post #13 of 17 Old 09-03-2001, 09:34 PM
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Bob:

Thank you for the web references, I will peruse them in detail later. In the meantime, would you have a URL for further information on Zenith pushing "with undue influence" for the 8VSB standard.

I was surprised, as I quickly scanned one of the sites, where it indicated that Europe was not implementing HDTV, but only DTV - I guess I have to dig deeper!

Fascinating stuff.

-Zyg-
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post #14 of 17 Old 09-03-2001, 09:36 PM
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This is the general HDTV chit chart forum. I don't see anything wrong with Bob tooting his horn on his favorite topic any more than if I wanted to complain ad nauseum about other stuff that does not exist in the USA in this forum section. If you all don't care to read it then you don't have to post in his threads. If nobody posts then Bob will eventually lose interest and stop waisting his time on a subject that no one cares about. The fact that people do respond here indicates to him that there are a few that do care about what he has to say.

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post #15 of 17 Old 09-04-2001, 12:49 PM
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Bob, I don't beleive your critics intented to intimidate users outside of the US. If one read more than two of your posts he will have a clear picture what your agenda is, and you certainly have the right to your opinion and freedom of opening up dialogs. But be true to your intention and understand when you continue to call on an HDTV system that worked for many in the US a failure, some reaction is expected.

Since we are only interested in HDTV, you will have a much better argument to make when the time comes you can report that many nations you mentioned above have more HDTV (not just DTV) CONTENTS and penetrations than the US.

Short of HDTV, you do run the risk of not staying on topic in this HDTV forum. This is not a datacasting, mobile reception or even a DTV forum. Did I mention HDTV?
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post #16 of 17 Old 09-04-2001, 02:03 PM
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I'm not going to dignify Mr. Miller's comments by responding specifically, lets just say I believe they're absurd.

I will say this: He knows what the ground rules are & he has made a conscious decision to flaunt them consistently. I, like many others here, are interested in international HDTV developments. Let's hope he can figure out the difference between that and the other topics he wants to promote.

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post #17 of 17 Old 09-06-2001, 01:47 PM
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For every ying there must be a yang.

Bob should be able to post whatever he wants.

Do you believe everything you read on the internet?

Fight the good fight bob.

I will just install my bob filter when reading your posts.

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