Is the HDTV forum going sour? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 08-23-2001, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Has the HDTV forum gone bad cause of lack of content? I mean, there hasn't been much new to discuss in a long time. Is it all just recycled? When's that government mandate gonna kick in and give us something real to talk about.
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post #2 of 33 Old 08-23-2001, 11:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tryg:
Has the HDTV forum gone bad cause of lack of content? I mean, there hasn't been much new to discuss in a long time. Is it all just recycled? When's that government mandate gonna kick in and give us something real to talk about.
There is lots to talk about but if you do you are liable to get your thread cut.;(

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post #3 of 33 Old 08-24-2001, 10:13 AM
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Tryg,

I'm not really sure what you mean. There are dozens (hundreds?) of post per day in the HDTV Forums, covering a diversity of topics. You may have noticed no one else has addressed your question.

As to Bob's comments, he keeps coming back to one issue, which is no longer of any interest to anyone but himself. Each time he posts, I get e-mail from other members asking me to get rid of him permanently. I would like to let him keep us informed, as it relates to international HDTV, but he is making it difficult for me to want to do so, as the subject always seems to come back to his pet peeve.

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[This message has been edited by Ken H (edited 08-24-2001).]

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #4 of 33 Old 08-24-2001, 11:30 AM
 
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I think he is refering to the billion look alike posts regarding CBD waiver. As with any forum, it lives off the cranuim of its posters. Human AVS brain power is far from perfect!!

I did bring this up to no avail...
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post #5 of 33 Old 08-27-2001, 04:23 PM
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Sometimes you HD "experts" get a little arrogant. There will always be newcomers to this hobby. And some of the "same old" topics will be repeated. But it's not "same old" to us newbees. It's just as exciting and intersting to us as I'm sure it was to some of you old timers before you learned it all. Try to remember what it was like when you didn't know so much. A little patience will help keep this forum friendly and fun for everybody. After all, no one was born with any of this knowledge.

[This message has been edited by Casemiro (edited 08-27-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Casemiro (edited 08-27-2001).]
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post #6 of 33 Old 08-28-2001, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Casemiro:
A little patience will help keep this forum friendly and fun for everybody. After all, no one was born with any of this knowledge.
Yep, what I have noticed in recent months are a number of boorish posts from some senior members to newbie posts, basically just shouting at them to do an online search. Another member suggested that it could be a good idea to include this suggestion on the posting page, together with the copyright warning, and I think this is a great idea. But simply replying to a poster with a "why are you bothering me, I'm tired of seeing questions like this, it's been asked a thousand times, do a search damn you" attitude is at best unhelpful and at worst could put that person off from joining further in forum discussions. It's about as helful as the usenet response "RTFM". If members can't be bothered to respond in a helpful, courteous manner then don't bother responding or reading that post in the first place. If I really wanna interact with grouchy unhelpful folks I have a local DMV for that purpose!
My 0.02c worth.


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post #7 of 33 Old 08-28-2001, 06:44 PM
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I think there's various reasons why some people, myself included have short fuses sometimes. People that have been here awhile want a place with decided differentiation than you'll find on usenet. So we will get frustrated when it's someones first post/thread that says.... Is football gonna be in HD this year??? To me thats a typical question that should be put on usenet. I think too in alot of cases that the "old schoolers" spent time reading here before they ever even posted anything. Obviously if a person did that they'd already know the answers to alot of the same general questions that always come up.

Also the same posters that ask the question as above, are the same type that are more than likely never going to be a regular contributor to the forum anyway. I have no real problem with someone asking a question without actually searching first..searching can be a pain. But I'd hope the question, and even as importantly, the *way* it gets asked.. comes across as something seemingly beyond a 12 year old.

We all want HD to thrive and grow..which means we want people to come here and read and learn..and again, if they'd just do that for a few days then they wouldnt have to ask the "unappreciated" questions. And be far more enlightened in the ways of HD anyway. Which is presumably what really matters.

Isnt whats happening all across the board with HD..the stuff you only get by reading as much material you can find on the subject, more important than simply..Is football gonna be in HD this year???....

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[This message has been edited by DP1 (edited 08-28-2001).]

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post #8 of 33 Old 08-28-2001, 06:59 PM
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Here is the problem. Some of oldsters have been answering the same questions over and over. We want to be helpful to newbee's. We want the newbee's to stay with the Forum or else the membership will never grow.

Unfortunately there are those who feel that they should "scold" the newbee for not taking the time to search through past posts to get his/her answer.

Personally I have come to the point that I would rather not post any answer than to "scold" a new member. I will keep an eye on a new post to see if:

a. it is answered
b. the answer is correct

If a day or two goes by and there is no answer than I will maybe take the time to give an answer. I always make it a point to help local newbees as i have made friends from people here at the Forum. many have come to my home to see my theater and I receive at least 2 or 3 e-mails a week with special questions that i always answer.

As far as the Forum being booring? There really isn't too much going on in the HDTV arena of lately. This will change in the next few weeks as the Fall TV season starts up and new shows in HD come on line.

For any "oldsters" reading this post I ask you to be patient with the newbees. And it is always better to say nothing than anything that could be termed derogatory.

Lee
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post #9 of 33 Old 08-29-2001, 06:32 AM
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Some newbies' attitude also leaves a lot to be desired. For example, see this thread where a guy insults people for "not helping the newbie" when his original question was only posted an hour earlier and in the wrong forum! Talk about impatience!

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post #10 of 33 Old 08-29-2001, 03:19 PM
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Anybody remember the old NY times classified slogan

"I got my job through the New York Times"

Well, I got my HDTV through the HDTV forum

Single most valuable piece of information I've gotten from any forum, anywhere, on any topic.

There is ALOT of other useful information here.
HBO-HD: is it just fancy 480p?
Real information on DTCP/HDCP
The death of 8vsb HBO in Manhattan: No, its not you

yes, there is a bit of noise here as well, but on the whole there's still real content.

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Alex

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post #11 of 33 Old 08-30-2001, 10:28 AM
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The specific "thing" that our wonderful moderator KenH was referring to about the subject that Bob Miller loves to post about that we who truly love HDTV and want more HDTV, is COFDM. He (Bob Miller) is a very frequent poster to the OpenDTV forum/email list and is not a consumer, per se, as are the rest (or most) of the "civilians" (meaning non-broadcasters or manufactures).

What Bob doesn't say is that the real reason that he and the companies & broadcasters that support COFDM is to be able to datacast to mobile devices such as Palm or PocketPC type devices so that they (broadcasters) can charge access fees. This is legal and legitimate as a business model for the broadcasters but is diametrically opposed to HDTV. The broadcasters (excluding the exemplary CBS) need to transmit standard definition (SDTV) in order to have the bandwidth leftover to datacast. HDTV was never mandated due to oversight. The 6mhz bandwidth was given to broadcasters by "we the people" via congress & the FCC in order to be able to transmit HDTV, not to allow 480p and wireless internet access.

Bob, please do not feel any need to post a response to this post. We can do our own searches on COFDM and read all about the pros of COFDM. We can even subscribe to OpenDTV and read the pro COFDM rhetoric of the broadcast industry.

Thanks all, and thank you Ken for your restraint,

Scott, the lurker

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post #12 of 33 Old 08-30-2001, 12:00 PM
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On HDTV, I would be considered a newbie. As you can see from my forum date, on Tivo I am an old timer. One big thing that you don't have on this HDTV forum that we have on the Tivo forum is a FAQ. Not the FAQ for how to use the forum, but a FAQ that could head off some of the newbie questions, or at least give you a simple place to send people. Has anyone tried to establish something like this in the past?
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post #13 of 33 Old 08-30-2001, 02:33 PM
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The mouse is a wonderful instrument. It can easily be clicked to do a "search" before you ask a question. But it can JUST as easily be clicked to take you out of a topic that seems redundant, boring, or written as if by a "12 year old". Seems both "newbies" and "oldies" just need to use that good ol' mouse a little more. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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post #14 of 33 Old 08-30-2001, 02:37 PM
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I nominate Marque's list of stations broadcasting HDTV to be the definative answer to the standard "Is there anything to watch in HDTV?" question we often get.

If anyone would like to write a definative comparison of 4:3 vs 16:9 HDTV's, feel free. That's one flame war I have no interest in being a part ofhttp://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif.

Jim

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Let me get this straight, this show is hi-def and 5.1, but my local affiliate makes it crappy NTSC and mono?!

Free over the air HDTV + Tivo HD + Netflix for Blu-ray and streaming = Bliss
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post #15 of 33 Old 08-31-2001, 09:00 PM
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Sirs,

Here is my experience. Searching old posts just doesn't cut it. I'm sure the oldsters here are sure that they know the answers to the FAQs, but sheesh... even the questions you'd think would have simple answers never seem to come to a consensus.

All I want to do is figure out what TV and STB to buy, and I'm more confused than ever after reading these forums for several months. I'd LOVE to see a FAQ on HDTV. It'd sure be much better than wading through thousands of posts trying to figure out which people are right and which only think they are right.

Eschew patience with people that have an honest desire to learn and respect your opinion.

P.S. If you'd like to help me work out my equipment purchases, let me know. You'd find me grateful. --ma.
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post #16 of 33 Old 09-01-2001, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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MA,

I feel your pain. There is a lot to know and try to understand about HDTV. Why a FAQ hasn't been created is probably two fold.
1. Things are still changing and to claim "this is th way it is" may make the current thought wrong in 3 months.
2. There are plenty of people on this forum that don't fully understand everything themselves adn are afraid to speak up as they might be wrong. There are however some ver y technical people on this forum that realy know what they are talking about. (there's people shaking their head right now thinking...that's me. even some of those are full of bologne)

I would like to put together a FAQ but right now I'm very limited on time. I suggest these topics as they would go a long way toward painting the picture.

1. VIEWING DEVICES
2. RECEIVERS
3. METHODS OF RECEIVING SIGNAL
4. BROADCASTERS AND BROADCASTING
5. GOVERNMENT MANDATES AND SPECTRUM ALLOCATION
6. HDTV FORMAT (TECHNICAL)
7. BARRIERS TO IMPLEMENTATION
8. HOW CAN HDTV BECOME MAINSTREAM (WHERE'S THE $$$)
9. FUTURE OF HDTV

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post #17 of 33 Old 09-01-2001, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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If I could add one more, it would be

10. COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS

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post #18 of 33 Old 09-01-2001, 02:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by shorton:
The specific "thing" that our wonderful moderator KenH was referring to about the subject that Bob Miller loves to post about that we who truly love HDTV and want more HDTV, is COFDM. He (Bob Miller) is a very frequent poster to the OpenDTV forum/email list and is not a consumer, per se, as are the rest (or most) of the "civilians" (meaning non-broadcasters or manufactures).

What Bob doesn't say is that the real reason that he and the companies & broadcasters that support COFDM is to be able to datacast to mobile devices such as Palm or PocketPC type devices so that they (broadcasters) can charge access fees. This is legal and legitimate as a business model for the broadcasters but is diametrically opposed to HDTV. The broadcasters (excluding the exemplary CBS) need to transmit standard definition (SDTV) in order to have the bandwidth leftover to datacast. HDTV was never mandated due to oversight. The 6mhz bandwidth was given to broadcasters by "we the people" via congress & the FCC in order to be able to transmit HDTV, not to allow 480p and wireless internet access.

Bob, please do not feel any need to post a response to this post. We can do our own searches on COFDM and read all about the pros of COFDM. We can even subscribe to OpenDTV and read the pro COFDM rhetoric of the broadcast industry.

Thanks all, and thank you Ken for your restraint,

Scott, the lurker
Well I hope Ken in his restraint will allow me to briefly respond.

One, the broadcasters voted 27 to 3 for 8-VSB on Jaunuary 15th of this year. Why they would be spouting "pro COFDM rhetoric" on OpenDTV now I don't know.

As to the other allegations, all false as I have stated many times before.

I would say it seems unfair knowing that I can't respond that you feel free to repeat the statements you do above. Either you shouldn't make the statements or I should be allowed to respond.
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post #19 of 33 Old 09-01-2001, 02:21 PM
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A FAQ for the HDTV forum is a great idea. It has been discussed here before, but the only reason it has not been done is the lack of time & energy. I am working to develop one similar to the one on the AVS TiVo forum, which I think is great.

Any volunteers for this project can contact me via AVS Private Message.

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[This message has been edited by Ken H (edited 09-01-2001).]

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post #20 of 33 Old 09-01-2001, 04:00 PM
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Major Astro,

O would like to answer your question..."What HDTV Set and STB should I buy?"

The answer is...DO NOT BUY ANY HDTV SET THAT YOU HAVE NOT SEEN WITH YOUR oWN EYES!

This is too big and important of a purchase to trust to someone else. You have to do some legwork by going out into stores to see what is available in your area and which one you like. Remember...you are going to be spending anywheres from $2000 all the up to $15,000 on this purchase and you are probably expecting it to last for a minimum of 5 years, if not longer.

I used to setup 3 Gun FPTV's for the local Home theater retail Store. I can vivdly remember an installatiion in a 3 million dollar home where the customer bought a high end Vidikron for about $20,000.

I spent 6 hours getting that image perfect using test equipment and the Video Standard LD. The image :was to die for" and I was very proud of myself.

I told the customer that I would make a followup visit in 3 days to make some adjustments because I knew the setting would drift and would he please make sure that the unit was on at least 1 hour before I arrived (to warm it up).

When I returned the image was terrible! Gone was the deep rich blacks and the "dead on" color balance. I was looking at a washed out image with a definite shift to Magenta...people looked like they all has sunburns!

The customer turns to me and says "we made a few adjustments to get the picture just the way we like it."

Inwardly i started to cry and simple said "looks like the geometery needs a bit of a touchup." Fiddled with it making no actual changes at all and said "your system looks great...enjoy it!"

As far as an STB you first have to decide if you want DirecTV, Dish or is Digital Cable offered in your area and is Over The Air (OTA) HDTV offered in your area.

As you can see, you do need to do a bunch of homework.

HDTV is just not that simple as it was for good old NTSC.

Lee

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post #21 of 33 Old 09-01-2001, 08:25 PM
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On a positive note the forum is getting a lot of questions from obvious newbies. Positive because the user base is growing. Much of it is recycled. It is time we put together an FAQ link to eliminate the redundant questions.

As far not having enough new stuff to talk about, well I disagree. The Fall season is upon us and HDTV is growing in content. There is always new technolgy to reveal and discuss.

As far as tne mandate kicking in, I hope posters here give us good news. But news, good or bad, is hard to control.

Tom

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post #22 of 33 Old 09-02-2001, 05:03 AM
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Addressing the original post. If you come here every day then to you it might be stale. I know it sometimes does seem so to me. AVS Forum has had a lot of press lately and brought a lot of new people.
Also it is summer rerun season! I have only had my HD tuner for about two-three months. So far I have seen only reruns!

A question was put to me by friend. What non-HDTV should I buy(small budget) and I want to watch DVD on it. DVD is in, DVD is hot, DVD is affordable. I believe it guarantees the future of HDTV. $3500 TV is not affordable to the average person and lets face it if you have been here a while you aren't average. Prices are coming down. Really we are only in third year of HD TV's (fourth due in OCT model year)
I get three of four channels. NBC must be on low power I'm only 40 miles out.
Patience! Patience! Patience!

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post #23 of 33 Old 09-02-2001, 07:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by TBMike:
Addressing the original post. If you come here every day then to you it might be stale. I know it sometimes does seem so to me. AVS Forum has had a lot of press lately and brought a lot of new people.
Also it is summer rerun season! I have only had my HD tuner for about two-three months. So far I have seen only reruns!

A question was put to me by friend. What non-HDTV should I buy(small budget) and I want to watch DVD on it. DVD is in, DVD is hot, DVD is affordable. I believe it guarantees the future of HDTV. $3500 TV is not affordable to the average person and lets face it if you have been here a while you aren't average. Prices are coming down. Really we are only in third year of HD TV's (fourth due in OCT model year)
I get three of four channels. NBC must be on low power I'm only 40 miles out.
Patience! Patience! Patience!

TBMike
Why do you say DVD guarantees HDTV? DVD is 480i information same as NTSC or currently broadcast TV. People are buying HDTV monitors to see DVD better but wouldn't that mean that NTSC would look better too? I know you can line double 480i to make it a pseudo 480p but that is not HDTV and even 480p is not HDTV.

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post #24 of 33 Old 09-02-2001, 08:29 AM
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If you look at the population of HDTV users you will see that so far HDTV is being considered a failure...or a format that has been REAL SLOW to take off.

As of 8/31/01 there are approx. 1.2 million HDTV compatible displays in the marketplace not including PC's or the populatino of Graphics Grade FPTV's. This count is from 01/01/98. Pretty good right?

But in the same time period there are only 150,000 HD STB's in the marketplace and this includes what is in retail stores, warehouses and the fact that some people have more than 1 STB.

You see without an HDTV STB you are not nor can you watch HDTV so if you want to measure the number of HD viewers in the USA you have to use the STB number and not the display number.

NO STB........NO HDTV

Lee
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post #25 of 33 Old 09-02-2001, 09:09 PM
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Bob,

Yes DVD is the guarantee of HDTV. People want HDTV! People can't presently afford HDTV. (People = the great majority)

Have you seen the change in the Blockbuster shelves. Used to be DVD was one small section now it's 1/4 the Back Wall and growing. People can see HDTV quality on their PC monitor. People want widescreen and good quality. To most it's "I have heard of HDTV but that is out of my price range" That will change.

NTSC no longer delivers. Yes its fine for standard network sitcoms and game shows.

The networks that can deliver HDTV will be the watched networks and the ones with sponsers.

I helped file one of the first Cellular filings with the FCC. I did not believe the marketing data. I said several times this will never fly. Well I ate crow.
I see the same forces at work. If you really ask people they want it.
My opinion its a done deal! Just a matter of how and when we get there.

TBMike

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post #26 of 33 Old 09-04-2001, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Why do you say DVD guarantees HDTV? DVD is 480i information same as NTSC or currently broadcast TV. People are buying HDTV monitors to see DVD better but wouldn't that mean that NTSC would look better too? I know you can line double 480i to make it a pseudo 480p but that is not HDTV and even 480p is not HDTV.
The vertical resolution of DVD is a close match for NTSC, but the horizontal resolution (720pixels) is way, way better. Thank you, DVD originators, for giving us a format that encouraged people to buy TVs better than NTSC - the nascent generation of HDTV viewers!

DVDs look better on larger monitors because they reveal more of the detail. NTSC looks worse because the monitors reveal how little detail there is to see. Kind of like using a magnifying glass to view photographs printed in a newspaper vs. National Geographic. Some HDTV monitors get rid of the worst of the NTSC signal (the scan lines), but they can't create detail where none exists.
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post #27 of 33 Old 09-04-2001, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sean Nelson:
Some HDTV monitors get rid of the worst of the NTSC signal (the scan lines), but they can't create detail where none exists.[/b]
Sean I need to argue with you on this one. sorry.

1. Every HDTV i've seen looks worse than an NTSC tv with NTSC material(unless a processor is involved). Why? it reviels more of the defects and lack of perfomance of the NTSC signal.

2. you can create information(detail) where it doesn't exist with the use of a processor(doubler ,quadroupler etc)

maybe you're trying to say the same thing but you certainly confused me.

also DVD's may not look any better on a larger monitor. It may just be bigger. The resolution of the monitor is really the only thing that can make it better.





[This message has been edited by Tryg (edited 09-04-2001).]
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post #28 of 33 Old 09-05-2001, 05:13 PM
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I think we're thinking along the same lines, but I guess my wording left something to be desired.

But I don't agree with you that line-doubling adds detail to an NTSC signal - in general I would say more that it "smooths out" the signal, in particular filling in the gaps between the scan lines.
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post #29 of 33 Old 09-05-2001, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeAntin:
Major Astro,

O would like to answer your question..."What HDTV Set and STB should I buy?" [...]
Lee,

Thanks so much for your kind help. After much agonizing, I've decided on a Panasonic Plasma for a monitor.

This forum was a *huge* source of help and encouragement in that decision. I consulted several magazines and one other online forum, but the av forum was by far the most helpful.

I may not be using the same reference to compare the quality of the forum, but to me it was and remains to be a great help as well as entertaining to read.

--Karl
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post #30 of 33 Old 09-09-2001, 08:50 AM
 
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As a newbie to AVS forums I agree that a strong degree of
patience is in order when more knowledgeable old timers attempt to deal with newbies to the Home Theater Hobby. AVS
forums is home to many tried and true technologically advanced members who have an educational background in electronics or have simply acquired knowledge over time. Some obviuosly are "In the business" and are Professional's
in this respect. On the other hand there are plently of brand new folks who are interested in HDTV and in Home theater in general and they are going to ask all the old qustions again and again. Some are true Technophobes and will always be and others are middle of the roaders. In all
honesty my favorite forums are "The Home theater Spot" and
"AVS Forums" because these two forums seem to be the friendliest. AVS has more experts IMHO and the "spot"
is a rapidly growing forum that reaches out to everyone...
especially newbies.
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Closed Thread Local HDTV Info and Reception

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