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Old 09-03-2009, 06:08 AM
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In a lot of ways, WOGX acts like a translator, albeit a full-powered one that is not licensed as a translator, to WOFL. I imagine you see the point of that.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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Old 09-03-2009, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by saxonww View Post

Just wanted to mention that I put a U-75R and Y5-7-13 in my attic this afternoon, to replace a MANT510 I had on top of my equipment shelves. I used a UVSJ combiner and no preamp. There is maybe 50ft of RG6 between the UVSJ and my tuner, including a coupler.

I was able to pull in PBS, ABC, CBS and FOX before - but not NBC - and a lot of times the stations were flaky (especially FOX). It's only been an hour or so, but I can lock the same stations + NBC now and I seem to get about the same signal level as before, without any amplification, even though I'm surrounded by tall pines. I'd say the antennas are about 12ft up. I am in Springtree (East of 34th and North of 39th) and have the UHF antenna pointed at ~218deg on a compass, while the VHF is pointed at ~256deg.

Big thanks to this group for the constant good advice and information.

That is my exact NW Gainesville solution. I think half a year ago or more I posted that there. NoBleach lives within a mile of you doing exactly the same thing, except he is outside about 20 ft off the ground. His WNBW is 80 and above.

I love success stories in particular ones I helped formulate, after all I don't get paid much here.

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Old 09-03-2009, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nocableguy View Post

Interesting reading on the apps from WESH and WFTV on the Orlando forum, Piggie. Too bad there doesn't seem to be anyone from WCJB or any of the OTA's from G'ville ever participating here. It would be interesting to hear their take on things.

I know all of them for years except the WOGX guys and known Terry at WNBW for over a year now. But I guess like so many of us we don't pick up the phone to say hello and how are things.

I doubt they would comment much about the WESH, WOFL showing up so close. But then again WKMG has been right there close for decades with W29AB. For that matter WOGX is full power right on the Gaineville DMA doorstep. After all I remember when they admitted it stood for Ocala Gainesville Xlator.

I think the WYPN-CA would be a great WNBW translator. I don't think they are putting out their full 30 watts now. And if they could run 15 KW digital (not sure of interference studies) it would give a lot of coverage for UHF NBC, which would really help considering they can't raise their power on WNBW, ever.

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Old 09-03-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by drewbrunelle View Post

ah, so like UHF to VHF or vice versa? what is the point of that? will we be able to get those networks OTA up here in north florida?

Not very likely in Gainesville even with a very good antenna. They are all directional pointing away from Gainesville to cover Marion County. I am not even sure BEING in Marion county if I will be able to receive WESH-24. I did the engineering and they will push 1.5 KW in my direction from about 19 miles. I can compare that to 1.6 KW from WJGV-LP in Palatka. They only come in when they want, plus I have noise on the channel from WOPX out of Orlando. Not sure if the 24 in Sarasota (actually a little north east of there) will add enough noise to the channel to ruin reception. When you are trying to watch a 1 KW translator, it doesn't take much noise to ruin things. Not even enough signal to wiggle your meter if the translator were not there. Example is I see digital snow on W29AB just about 24/7 from WFTS in Tampa. I am hoping that WFTS being 1MW and closer to me, that the interference on 24 from WWSB only running 70 KW from 800 ft won't bother it.

I will have to do some antenna changes if it will be possible.

But how how how how I wish WYPN would convert to digital and carry NBC also, as my current UHF antenna points right at it now. Though I see a LOT of tropo on Ch45 from somewhere both analog and digital.

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Old 09-03-2009, 04:04 PM
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Tuned in 702 on QAM for the 6pm news, no WESH. Anyone else not getting WESH on Cox QAM?

Edit: I see they're blocking WESH for NBC programming again, but that shouldn't have affected the 6pm news.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:49 PM
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Blocking 702 on Cox Cable too. Really not happy. Hate 2.1 Dolby Digital.
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:51 PM
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Wow we just got SUNHD and FSNHD! Very nice.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:29 PM
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Well per FCC rules they are supposed to block any out of DMA station showing the same programming at the same time as an in DMA station of the same network.

I don't believe they are supposed to block WESH local news, but it's better to complain to COX or the FCC.

This is one of those issues that is written into federal law, as least them blocking. It's consumer demand that has WESH on Gainesville cable at all. So it's a two way street.

If they block same content, there is nothing you can do except write your congress man or get mad at the world.

But if they block something like the local news they are not legally bound to block then you complain to Cox.

====

Complaining helps in the long run for a lot of cases. I am not sure it will help me and more of a chance that is won't, but WESH had so many Marion County viewers OTA complain, they are putting up a translator in north Ocala.

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Old 09-04-2009, 11:31 AM
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I am finding WESH at 78.1 (549 Mhz) on QAM, though it's currently showing a 640x480 block screen.

Two "HDPPV" placeholders also appearing.

2pm Martha Stewart is on, but extremely choppy. Basically not even there.

Analog 2 is still showing the "blocked" message even though it's not network programming. Cox is really screwing things up right now.
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Old 09-05-2009, 10:50 AM
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Ugh, football on WOGX looks terrible. 720p -> 1080i -> 720p happening with no deinterlacing on that last step.

Edit: and now they're completely missing the red color channel.

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Old 09-05-2009, 12:27 PM
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We've used same 18 inch dish for over 10 years and only experienced rain fade during the most severe weather if with heavy clouds to our S.West.

Over the last 8 months rain fade much worse and almost any clouding/rain causes us to lose Sat signal.

Do these dish materials fail over time?

Would we see appreciable increase in signal and lessening of rain fade if we buy a 30 inch dish?

In the summer rains rain fade almost daily is no fun and all suggestions very much appreciated.
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Old 09-05-2009, 02:15 PM
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Why can't I get the NBC channel WNBW? I live close to the intersection of NW 39th Av and NW 24th Blvd in Gainesville, FL
I installed a ClearStream4 on my roof and the PA-18 UHF/VHF Antenna Pre-Amp Kit.
According to antennaweb.org, the NBC channel is in the center (of the compass) of all the other channels I get that come in very well. Any suggestions?
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Old 09-05-2009, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by xraymilller View Post

Why can't I get the NBC channel WNBW? I live close to the intersection of NW 39th Av and NW 24th Blvd in Gainesville, FL
I installed a ClearStream4 on my roof and the PA-18 UHF/VHF Antenna Pre-Amp Kit.

WNBW broadcasts on VHF channel 9 (centered at 189 MHz) with less than 5 kW power (low for a "full" power station; 160 kW is the maximum allowed for VHF-hi, channels 7-13, though that may be further limited by the FCC for a variety of reasons for a particular transmitter). WNBW isn't likely to increase their power any time in the foreseeable future.

The C4 is a UHF antenna, with very little ability to pull in VHF channels. The wavelength of channel 9 is about 62", so an antenna needs elements about 31" long to work well (the longest UHF wavelength is less than half that size, at about 25"). If you lived in Newberry, that might be close enough to the WNBW transmitter for the C4 to pull it in. As it is, you will have to add a VHF antenna and couple it to your existing cable with a frequency selective device called a UHF/VHF combiner (aka separator, joiner or diplexer). There are a few on the market, but I don't know of any local supplier.

Pico Macom UVSJ:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ

For the VHF antenna itself, any of these should work for you:
AntennaCraft Y5-7-13
Winegard YA-1713
Antennas Direct C5

I believe that the C5 includes their UVSJ equivalent device, but you should verify that. It is the most expensive of the three antennas, but it is produced by the same company that built your C4. You will also need a pair of RG-6 cables to connect everything. Be sure to weather proof. (Also be sure that everything is grounded according to code.)

You didn't ask, but the C2 without a preamp should work for you, possibly better (because the C2 has a wider beamwidth than the C4, and you are close enough to the very powerful UF TV and FM transmitters that you are prone to amplifier and tuner overload).

Quote:
According to antennaweb.org, the NBC channel is in the center (of the compass) of all the other channels I get that come in very well. Any suggestions?

Most of us prefer to use tvfool instead of anntennaweb, but that isn't important for you at this point:

http://www.tvfool.com/

BTW, in which direction is your C4 pointed?

Cheers
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Old 09-06-2009, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by xraymilller View Post

Why can't I get the NBC channel WNBW? I live close to the intersection of NW 39th Av and NW 24th Blvd in Gainesville, FL
I installed a ClearStream4 on my roof and the PA-18 UHF/VHF Antenna Pre-Amp Kit.
According to antennaweb.org, the NBC channel is in the center (of the compass) of all the other channels I get that come in very well. Any suggestions?

The set up I am suggesting below has been proven by two people that live less than a mile from you that use the Y5-7-13 and a U-75R into a UVSJ and NO AMP....
Also based on this TVFool Plot using coordinates at your intersection. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8ecd7490ddd5d3

First as pointed out, the CS4 will not receive VHF and WNBW is on Ch9, which is VHF.

Second you live way way too close to WUFT-TV and FM to run any amp.

Third I strongly disagree that a C5 is worth buying. It's large, overpriced for what is does.

Fourth, as suggested buy a:
AntennaCraft Y5-7-13
or
Winegard YA6713, but you probably can't find one as they are back ordered over 3 months.

Fifth, buy as suggested a Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna

Sixth, as suggested buy two short 5 to 6 ft pieces of RG6 with connectors.
Solid Signal Custom Cable Lengths RG6 with High Quality Solid Signal Connectors (5 Foot Cable Length)

Seventh, with a Y5-7-13, you will need a balun, buy a good one, probably cheaper than locally. Channel Master CM3075 Outdoor Matching Transformer (CM0089)

=============

Installation.

1) Remove Amp, sell on Craig's list or return to vendor.
2) Mount the Y5-7-13 at least 3 to 5 feet away from the CS4
3) Run one of the short coaxes from each antenna (installing balun on Y5-7-13) to the correct ports on the UVSJ combiner.
4) Point the Y5-7-13 to 252 degrees true, 258 magnetic. Or just barlely south of west.
5) Point the C4 Southwest or about 214 true or 218 magnetic degrees.
6) Run cable inside and watch TV.

PS: If you bought the C4 locally, it's still new, have the box, etc, you could return it and buy a Radio Shack U-75R for half the price and do just as well. (but you still need the Y5-7-13 for WNBW)

=============

Disclaimer: You also need to run a ground system if your antenna is mounted outside. Here is good suggestion page with some how to included.

Go to this page http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html then scroll down to Grounding outdoor antennas

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Old 09-06-2009, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imjay View Post

We've used same 18 inch dish for over 10 years and only experienced rain fade during the most severe weather if with heavy clouds to our S.West.

Over the last 8 months rain fade much worse and almost any clouding/rain causes us to lose Sat signal.

Do these dish materials fail over time?

Would we see appreciable increase in signal and lessening of rain fade if we buy a 30 inch dish?

In the summer rains rain fade almost daily is no fun and all suggestions very much appreciated.

I had the same problem and discovered there was a tree branch that had grown in the way. I moved mine to a pole so it's about 6 ft up at the bottom of the dish out in the yard, where there wasn't a tree in the way. Since then I only see fades during really hard rains.

It is possible your LNB has gotten moisture inside. You could remove it, and look but just tilting it around to see if there is water inside.

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Old 09-06-2009, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbaprog View Post

720p -> 1080i -> 720p happening with no deinterlacing on that last step.
[/IMG]

Where are these steps of changing resolution happening? I assumed with the FOX Splicer, it was sent as 720p, then transmitted as such.

That said though I can see in on both 51.1 and .2 on my TV and its just a 720p TV.

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Old 09-06-2009, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbaprog View Post

I am finding WESH at 78.1 (549 Mhz) on QAM, though it's currently showing a 640x480 block screen.

Two "HDPPV" placeholders also appearing.

2pm Martha Stewart is on, but extremely choppy. Basically not even there.

Analog 2 is still showing the "blocked" message even though it's not network programming. Cox is really screwing things up right now.

Call Cox.....

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Old 09-06-2009, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Piggie View Post

Where are these steps of changing resolution happening? I assumed with the FOX Splicer, it was sent as 720p, then transmitted as such.

That said though I can see in on both 51.1 and .2 on my TV and its just a 720p TV.

SEC network is not Fox programming.

What you have happening here is the following.

ESPN-owned production in 720p. This is sent to the SEC people, who handle the distribution and apparently can only do things in 1080i. This gets sent to the affiliates, of which WOGX is the local one, and since it's 720p they have to downconvert the video, and they apparently don't have a deinterlacer. (Or they do, and it's not working -- obviously they are converting the signal to analogue at some point, as evidenced by the occasional dropouts of the red channel during the game).

I don't know anything about the actual process at work here, but given my understanding of the business side of things, that's my assumption.
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Old 09-06-2009, 07:06 PM
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I only know a little about modern studio equipment, but to me it would seem in order to broadcast 720p from a 1080i source one would have to combine fields into frames, and interpolate the line number difference.

I don't see how it's possible not to remove the interlace and convert from 1080i to 720p. My TV does it when I tune a 1080i broadcast, since it's screen is only 720p.

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Old 09-06-2009, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xraymilller View Post

Why can't I get the NBC channel WNBW? I live close to the intersection of NW 39th Av and NW 24th Blvd in Gainesville, FL
I installed a ClearStream4 on my roof and the PA-18 UHF/VHF Antenna Pre-Amp Kit.
According to antennaweb.org, the NBC channel is in the center (of the compass) of all the other channels I get that come in very well. Any suggestions?

The sad part is I bet the box advertising made you believe a C4 would pick up all channels where in fact it's only UHF.

AntennasDirect is horrible about "stretching the truth in advertising", which ends up confusing people.

How many folks have bought a C4, gotten mad because they didn't know this or other forums are here, figured DTV is terrible, spent all that money, all that work and their C4 can't pickup VHF.

I really don't like their advertising and feel stronger than that about that company but limiting my words in pubic.

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Old 09-06-2009, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flcs3 View Post


The C4 is a UHF antenna, with very little ability to pull in VHF channels....
[snip]
For the VHF antenna itself, any of these should work for you:
AntennaCraft Y5-7-13
Winegard YA-1713
Antennas Direct C5

I believe that the C5 includes their UVSJ equivalent device, but you should verify that. It is the most expensive of the three antennas, but it is produced by the same company that built your C4. You will also need a pair of RG-6 cables to connect everything. Be sure to weather proof. (Also be sure that everything is grounded according to code.)

This is why I don't like AntennasDirect. I bet the OP bought the C4 based on writing on the side of the box it was a HD READY all channel antenna. Probably very carefully worded but leading consumers to believe their antennas will do anything.

I understand in fairness you listed all the biggest manufactures, but personally I leave AD out of the running because I believe they use a lot of mis leading advertising borderline on illegal.

Their plan was to mass produce in China. Let marketing drive engineering. Instead of the American antennas that are engineered by engineers. Made tough and cost half the price.

I am not ranting against you , just that company gives me heartburn. As we see, they claimed another victim.

If you google map their address, you find it's a storage shed , not a sales office or manufacturing facility, just a storage shed they rent to have an American address.

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Old 09-06-2009, 07:34 PM
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If you want to know what some of the heavy weights in the HD scene think read this forum thread from last year.

The owner of AD gets into a heated discussion with Ken Nist, that shuts him down.

Ken is the author of the hdtvprimer.com site, used by all of us to help people set up antennas.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/vi...da50274a1f9beb

Note that Ken's name on the that site is his Ham Radio call sign

kq6qv

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Old 09-07-2009, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

In a lot of ways, WOGX acts like a translator, albeit a full-powered one that is not licensed as a translator, to WOFL. I imagine you see the point of that.

- Trip

I can't remember if they really did it but common knowledge around here 20 some years ago was W Ocala Gainesville Xtranslator. Or did I already post that a dozen times?

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Old 09-08-2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piggie View Post

I only know a little about modern studio equipment, but to me it would seem in order to broadcast 720p from a 1080i source one would have to combine fields into frames, and interpolate the line number difference.

I don't see how it's possible not to remove the interlace and convert from 1080i to 720p. My TV does it when I tune a 1080i broadcast, since it's screen is only 720p.

Scaling from 1080i to 720p without deinterlacing is common enough. I do it often when watching TV (since i mostly watch through an EyeTV 250+) and don't want to tax my CPU too much bothering with the rather CPU-intensive process.

Of course, I'm not OPERATING A TELEVISION STATION. The fault here lies with both the SEC network folks, who for whatever reason find it necessary to upscale the 720p to 1080i, and the folks at WOGX who don't seem to know what to do with this content.
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbaprog View Post

Scaling from 1080i to 720p without deinterlacing is common enough. I do it often when watching TV (since i mostly watch through an EyeTV 250+) and don't want to tax my CPU too much bothering with the rather CPU-intensive process.

Of course, I'm not OPERATING A TELEVISION STATION. The fault here lies with both the SEC network folks, who for whatever reason find it necessary to upscale the 720p to 1080i, and the folks at WOGX who don't seem to know what to do with this content.

You may not doing interpolation converting but a 720p screen can't display interlace.

I am sure we are in agreement with missing knowledge in this.

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Old 09-09-2009, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piggie View Post

You may not doing interpolation converting but a 720p screen can't display interlace.

I am sure we are in agreement with missing knowledge in this.

If you simply downscale 1080i to 720p, without applying deinterlacing, you get exactly what my screenshot showed.
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:51 PM
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Cox asleep at the wheel again -- they ought to be blacking out the Rays-Yankees game on ESPN and replacing it with ESPNews.
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:58 PM
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Just want to say thanks to flcs3 and Piggie. I went ahead and bought the YA-1713 and the signal combiner. Just to see I called DISH network to see about getting the HD locals, but apparently they're on satellite that is too low in the sky and is thus blocked by trees.

I haven't installed the YA-1713 yet, but will post an update when I do.

Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Piggie View Post

Sorry for being gone for days, busy on other forums and personal projects.

Based on your TVFool plot of the corner of Waldo and Univ Ave, compared to others with the same signal levels and known installations.

If you use a Y5-7-13, it need to be up 20 ft and hopefully not a lot of trees to the west. If you are receiving WGFL on Ch 28 from your house, then there are probably not enough trees to bother CH 9 .

If you want the antenna lower, buy the YA-1713.

From your house a Y5-7-13 will give you about a 80 to 90 with a single TV and no amp or splitters. Depending on the type of TV, etc since all meters are not the same, you would see 5 to 10 more points with a YA-1713, and 3 more db of fade margin during bad reception times such as lightning breaking up the screen.

Another way to put it, with the extra margins needed on VHF, a Y5-7-13 is just barely over the threshold of adequate. It may be enough though because you want to split at least 3 ways. That would be splitting than the bigger YA-1713 could make up.

Splitting 3 ways will require a small amp. But very small. WUFT is -18.5 dbm, which comes close to the input spec to even a Winegard HDP 269 which is about -14.5 dbm. If the DB2 has much gain in that direction, say 3 db including loss in a UVSJ to combine the antennas, it will hit the amp at -15.5 range. You might have to turn the edge of the screen of the DB2 at WUFT to minimize it's reception.

You also have an FM transmitter not far about where SE4th Street and Willistion Rd, just east of that intersection. It's only a 6KW WXJZ but it's close and strong enough to overload the amp.

So it would be advisable to put an FM Trap between the combiner and amp.

If you cable runs are less than 50 ft total, you may not need an amp. Without the amp it's possible you don't need an FM trap. An amp can be added to a short masted outdoor antenna easy enough to install the system then see if you need an amp.

Then if you go without an amp, going back to thinking about spending $20 more on a YA-1713, may make it all work.

One way to go a step at a time to see what to buy, try wiring the house with the splitter and all the coax with just the current UHF DB2. See if that works. If it works, then there is a very good chance that adding a VHF won't require an amp either.

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Old 09-09-2009, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nihilan View Post

Just want to say thanks to flcs3 and Piggie. I went ahead and bought the YA-1713 and the signal combiner. Just to see I called DISH network to see about getting the HD locals, but apparently they're on satellite that is too low in the sky and is thus blocked by trees.

I haven't installed the YA-1713 yet, but will post an update when I do.

Thanks again.

I am pretty sure you have enough antenna for WNBW.

One thing you will find, is the YA-1713 is pickier than the paper work says on pointing at a station. So make sure you are right on WNBW.

- Please don't PM with any thing that could be useful to the general group.
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:26 AM
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Did I miss the announcement about BETHD, Disney HD, and ABC Family HD being added to Cox? My TiVo told me about them yesterday and I can tune them now and my mother-in-law said she could get those channels now on her Cox PVR.
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