Gainesville, FL - HDTV - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 3461 Old 10-18-2006, 08:38 AM
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It seems that the retransmission battle between Cox and Hearst-Argyle is not limited to just Gainesville and Ocala cable TV systems. Mediaweek reports that Hearst-Argyle Television (WESH) has also pulled its HD signals in five additional markets including New Orleans; Oklahoma City; Omaha, Neb.; Kansas City; Fort Smith-Fayetteville, Ark.

The article implied that unfortunately, neither side was close to a quick resolution of this problem.
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post #632 of 3461 Old 10-18-2006, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solari View Post

On another topic, I'd like to try out OTA HDTV in my home office as we won't be getting DirecTV-HD yet for awhile. I was wondering if anyone had any good experience pulling in HDTV signals in the NW Gainesville area - more specifically west 39th ave past I-75. A familiar landmark would be the Best Western hotel or the Harley Davision dealership. We live in the subdivisions past there on the south of 39th ave.

I live in one of those subdivisions as well. The HD channels I'm able to get OTA are WUFT (PBS), WCJB(ABC), and WGFL (CBS) using a Zenith Silver sensor and a small Zenith digital amp (though I think the amp sucks). If you have basic cable and a QAM-256 (Clear-QAM) tuner, you can get a couple more stations, all in the 1008.x range oddly enough, don't know if that's because of my QAM tuner though (used to be able to get WESH NBC, no more though b/c of the whole fiasco).
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post #633 of 3461 Old 10-19-2006, 06:24 PM
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Just thought I'd share... I watched Smallville in HD tonight on CW. Cable connected directly to my TV (bypass cable box). Channel 81-103.

What's interesting is that when I discovered it the other day, they were switching it between CW18 (Orlando CW) and the local CW. Weird. The HD I watched tonight was coming from the local CW. I don't know why they're not broadcasting the HD OTA.
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post #634 of 3461 Old 10-21-2006, 04:53 PM
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I have COX's HD service and was wondering what the status of NBC, FOX, and FSN HD was. Are these networks available through the receiver or through the air, or not at all?
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post #635 of 3461 Old 10-21-2006, 05:42 PM
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NBC was in HD up until a few weeks ago, but Cox and NBC couldn't work it out and extend their agreement to keep NBC in HD. Hopefully that will get worked out.

FOX 51 is still not HD even over the air. They are the only FOX owned and operated affiliate that is not in HD. They do have a 480P digital signal that it is possible to get with an antenna.

No idea about FSN. Anytime you email COX about any upcomming HD stations, you get a standard 'we hope to offer more channels in the future'.
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post #636 of 3461 Old 10-21-2006, 05:45 PM
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Thanks for the promt reply, I guess I should have read the previous posts. I wonder if we somehow gathered everyone that is upset about the tiny list of HD channels provided in our area, and showed up at COX headquarters or bombarded them with e-mails/phone calls all in one day, if there would be a change made. We should approach the GAINESVILLE SUN about this issue as well. It does not seem that anyone or any medium other than this forum has been used to discuss this issue. It is not right to only have a handful of channels available, especially when local channels were promised. How can basics like NBC, FOX not be available?
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post #637 of 3461 Old 10-22-2006, 05:57 AM
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Shouldn't you be practicing for the dawgs? Sorry, couldn't resist.

I would disagree about harassing Cox. We should be harassing our government representatives. It is the ridiculous laws that prevent DirecTV or Dish from providing us whatever we want. We wouldn't have any of these problems if it weren't for the laws. We'd just order DirecTV and get whatever Fox HD... out of Jax, out of New York, whatever.
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post #638 of 3461 Old 10-23-2006, 07:08 AM
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Agree to an extent g8rfreak. While I still think Cox deserves plenty of harassment, some of the laws are ridiculous. I realize they're just trying to protect the local affiliates but c'mon, it's like capitalism doesn't apply once you move into the TV market. Why protect an inferior affiliate?

I guess it's about time for DC to make a law that Dell can no longer sell their computers for under $1000 because Gateway can't keep up

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post #639 of 3461 Old 10-23-2006, 10:35 AM
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NBC HD and FOX HD are available on Directv. You can receive ABC HD, CBS HD and PBS HD OTA for free.

This HD feud between WESH and COX could go on for awhile.
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post #640 of 3461 Old 10-24-2006, 06:28 AM
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NBC HD and FOX HD are available how on Directv? Through waivers?

Are they available on Dish as well?

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post #641 of 3461 Old 10-24-2006, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeBaGeL View Post

Agree to an extent g8rfreak. While I still think Cox deserves plenty of harassment, some of the laws are ridiculous. I realize they're just trying to protect the local affiliates but c'mon, it's like capitalism doesn't apply once you move into the TV market. Why protect an inferior affiliate?

I guess it's about time for DC to make a law that Dell can no longer sell their computers for under $1000 because Gateway can't keep up

The "laws" aren't anything new or even unusual. These are simply distribution rights. Bought and paid for by someone for a given area. It happens eveywhere. It's the reason you get Pepsi and not Coke in some places or Coke and not Pepsi. There are tons of arrangements for "exclusive rights" being negotiated with products, services or brand names. It is an extremely common business model. It's also the business model used with televison. Programming is purchased with distribution rights to a given geographic area.

There is nothing about the "law" that should change as the laws are just the common binding contract obligations. You could suggest that distribution rights should not be enforced or permitted but that would mean the program providers would have nothing to sell. The actual product that programming providers sell is distribution rights. They don't sell the program, they sell the rights to air the program. Without distribution rights, you wouldn't have any way of making money by producing programming.

The logic of it is that distribution rights are the products that you are watching on TV.
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post #642 of 3461 Old 10-24-2006, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G8rfreak View Post

Shouldn't you be practicing for the dawgs? Sorry, couldn't resist.

I would disagree about harassing Cox. We should be harassing our government representatives. It is the ridiculous laws that prevent DirecTV or Dish from providing us whatever we want. We wouldn't have any of these problems if it weren't for the laws. We'd just order DirecTV and get whatever Fox HD... out of Jax, out of New York, whatever.


Sorry, my previous post was meant as a reply to this quote.
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post #643 of 3461 Old 10-24-2006, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeBaGeL View Post

NBC HD and FOX HD are available how on Directv? Through waivers?

Are they available on Dish as well?

Not Dish. Dish has been order to stop providing Distant Networks as of Dec. 1 2006.

On Directv you should be able to receive NBC HD without a waiver. You probably will need a waiver for FOX, but because of the fact that WOGX is Owned and Operated by FOX(OAO), it should be approved.

Call them!

You don't have to pay extra for the HD distant networks as long as you sign up for the SD distant networks and pay for them. ABC HD, CBS HD and PBS HD must be OTA.
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post #644 of 3461 Old 10-24-2006, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Shorts View Post

The "laws" aren't anything new or even unusual. These are simply distribution rights. Bought and paid for by someone for a given area. It happens eveywhere.

Some of these "laws" have been "bought and paid for" also.
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post #645 of 3461 Old 10-24-2006, 12:45 PM
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WOGX will not grant a waiver for gainesville residents using directtv.
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post #646 of 3461 Old 10-24-2006, 05:10 PM
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The audio feed during the World Series on FOX is terrible on Cox Cable. Is anybody else having issues/troubles with FOX's audio through Cox?
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post #647 of 3461 Old 10-25-2006, 01:58 PM
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i know it's ultimately fruitless, but has anyone found any contact information for WOGX? i guess they know there's plenty of complaints, because they don't provide any kind of email/comments section that i can find. i'd at least like to vent at them, and ask them why i'm watching nfl games in atrocious SD (it's bad, even for SD) despite owning an HTDV. thank god for my xbox 360, because without it, i'm not sure i'd have much use for my tv in gainesville.
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post #648 of 3461 Old 10-25-2006, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffLebowski View Post

i know it's ultimately fruitless, but has anyone found any contact information for WOGX? i guess they know there's plenty of complaints, because they don't provide any kind of email/comments section that i can find. i'd at least like to vent at them, and ask them why i'm watching nfl games in atrocious SD (it's bad, even for SD) despite owning an HTDV. thank god for my xbox 360, because without it, i'm not sure i'd have much use for my tv in gainesville.

A few pages back there was a post about WOGX (page 17). They've committed to bringing HD to the Ocala/Gainesville market by the end of their fiscal year, which is supposedly around June of next year. Venting to them will probably yeild no additional benefit. There was also some talk (way back) for the reasons HD was currently not available, and it was because they do not have the ability to microwave a high definition feed from Orlando to Ocala. (this was on page 7).
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post #649 of 3461 Old 10-25-2006, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bradh352 View Post

A few pages back there was a post about WOGX (page 17). They've committed to bringing HD to the Ocala/Gainesville market by the end of their fiscal year, which is supposedly around June of next year. Venting to them will probably yeild no additional benefit. There was also some talk (way back) for the reasons HD was currently not available, and it was because they do not have the ability to microwave a high definition feed from Orlando to Ocala. (this was on page 7).

how is any of that my problem? it's almost 2007, they should have taken steps to implement HD years ago, not now. for a massive swath of central florida to not receive nfl games in high def is simply unnacceptable.

you're right, though. it won't do any good to complain to them, so i guess i won't bother. i just get more and more annoyed with each passing week that i made the investment in a high definition tv and there's hardly any content worth watching on it.
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post #650 of 3461 Old 10-26-2006, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by nostar View Post

Some of these "laws" have been "bought and paid for" also.

While that may be true, the laws that prevent DirecTV and Dish from giving people anything they want aren't FCC regulations but copyright laws. Copyright laws apply to everything from books to movies and brand names etc. The FCC rules only apply to qualifying the application of copyrights laws in terms of availabilities.

One FCC rule actually designed to protect local broadcaster is the "must carry" rules which only apply to cable and not satellite. Even with cable, broadcast stations are opting to release their "must carry" rights in favor of "retransmission agreements" because they can get paid for redistribution that way. It's the reason that there is no NBC-HD on Cox right now. Hearst has waived their "must carry" rights because cable doesn't have to pay for stations that apply "must carry" rights.

Satellite is also obligated to a "carry one carry all" rule imposed by the FCC which is applicable to all full power TV stations in a market with local into local service.

Unless Networks decide to cut deals with cable and satellite directly, the copyright laws will remain applicable to the TV stations currently buying exclusive copyright contracts to their geographic areas. The Networks just wouldn't be able to make as much money by offering copyright to cable and satellite. No law prevents them from doing so, just the economics.
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post #651 of 3461 Old 10-26-2006, 08:09 AM
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The difference with TV compared to all those other mediums is that TV is much more akin to a monopoly here. We, in Gainesville, cannot get NBC HD, cannot get FOX HD, cannot get CW HD because distribution laws prevent our cable company from providing it from a superior affiliate. We have no alternative. We are resigned to WESH and WOGX regardless of how bad and/or behind the times they are. There's no capatilism in that.

I'd be willing to bet that if cable companies had the ability to say "screw you WOGX, this other affiliate over here already has HD" that WOGX would magically have found a way around all their troubles currently preventing them from sending out an HD signal.

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post #652 of 3461 Old 10-26-2006, 11:11 AM
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I fail to see the difference with other mediums. If Walmart doesn't want to deal with Paramount then they can't go get Pamarmount distributed movies from anybody else. They're choice is still only to deal with Paramount or do without. I realize that you could get your DVD from another store but this is simply because there are no exclusive distribution rights for this. A better example would be if you don't like the guy who delivers Coke to your restaurant. You would only be able to get Pepsi or go without as that guy will have exclusive geographic distribuition. Until it starts to hurt Coke enough to turn over distribution rights to someone else, it's not going to be an option for you. Try and find a Coke machine on campus at UF. Pepsi paid millions for there not to be any. This is also applicable to WOGX. Unless it really hurts News Corp economically, they will not be willing to pass on distribution rights to someone else. Being WOGX is owned and operated by News Corp. that isn't likely to happen. It's not laws, it's purely economic. Cox can't go get it from someone else just because the someone else wouldn't have the distribution rights required.

The confusion is often repeated but if you think about the reality, it is the satellite companies that want to lobby to change the laws in order to force Networks to give them some kind of distribution deal even if it doesn't make any economic sense to the Networks. If you believe Networks are driven by any other motivation then capitalism I think you'd be mistaken. If satellite or cable proposed a means for Networks to make more money, they would not be beholding to TV stations at all. They are not legally required to be available to Broadcast Stations at all. That being the case, it can only be economic motivation.

If you look at the ratings Network shows got before 1995 and after that time, you can easily see how satellite has not been a good thing for Networks. It's been great for viewers but has been really a bad thing, economically speaking, for Networks. Prior to satellite, a large portion of the population was looking at an 4 to 10 channel universe. Now we can all enjoy a 200 channel universe. That's just not a plus for Netowrks economically speaking. This is also true for the multi channel universe with cable.

I'm not saying any of this is good for viewers, I just don't like people repeating things that don't seem to be true. The problems we have with Network viewing is apparently not because of specific laws protecting TV stations but is really just econimically based business strategies.
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post #653 of 3461 Old 10-26-2006, 02:04 PM
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Well you obviously understand a lot more about this than I do so that could be where some of the argument is stemming from.

So in regards to the UF/Pepsi example are you saying that Cox is essentially being paid by WOGX to only broadcast WOGX's version of FOX? I would find that a bit odd as we have had the same network affiliate's throughout our entire lifetime and you would think at some point if that were the case that capitalism would take over and Cox would realize that they could do better with an exclusive distribution deal from a different affiliate. With the Coke/Pepsi example we saw this happen within the last year, where it used to be Coke that was exclusive on campus.

It just seems to me that capitalism would dictate that if these same types of exclusive distribution deals are the only thing binding WOGX, etc. to Cox then when some other affiliate saw WOGX paying $xx and not even providing HD services they would come and say essentially "hey Cox, we'll come in and give you $xx or even $xx+y to sign the distribution deal with us...and oh by the way we'll also bring an HD signal to the area."

Nonetheless, even in the examples dictated above we're talking about physical products with plenty of alternatives. If I want that DVD, as you said I can just walk next door to Best Buy. If I want Coke, I can just walk a few blocks down and buy some at Chipotle. Further, both of these are physical entities that I can buy elsewhere and bring back to my preferred location. If I could drive to Orlando and buy some magical Orlando cable box that gave me Orlando's FOX and NBC HD back here in Gainesville then I would, but there is no such alternative in this medium.

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post #654 of 3461 Old 10-26-2006, 02:16 PM
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Apparently NBC SD and NBC HD are two different products, as Cox cable is still carrying WESH SD. If this is the case then Cox should be able to purchase FOX HD from another Market.

"must carry" and "must not carry" Hmmm!

Who has the NBC HD redistribution rights for the Gainesville Market?

I thought that the "given area" and "geographic area" were the assigned DMA. And if this is true the Gainesville market is a NBC "unserved area" and cox would be lawfully able to purchase the right to carry the Jacksonville NBC HD station.

I guess the problem really lies with Cox cable's unwillingness to "pony up" for right to rebroadcast NBC HD" as they did with ABC HD.
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post #655 of 3461 Old 10-26-2006, 07:39 PM
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Shhhhh... you *can* get CW in HD. If your TV has a built in tuner (bypass cable box) then you can pick up CW on channel 81-103. I previously posted that it was the local CW but that was wrong. It is definitely the Orlando CW station, WKCF. I checked the Ocala offerings by Cox and they have the Orlando CW. So that's how it's on their system. For whatever reason, we're able to pick it up here if you know where to look.

To the person who said that we can get NBC and Fox in HD through DirecTV.... I called them and they said, "Sure, what we'll do is put an antenna up next to the dish and you might be able to pick it up." Ummm... that's not what I had in mind. When I asked if they could provide it through the dish, they said no.
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post #656 of 3461 Old 10-27-2006, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeBaGeL View Post

Nonetheless, even in the examples dictated above we're talking about physical products with plenty of alternatives. If I want that DVD, as you said I can just walk next door to Best Buy. If I want Coke, I can just walk a few blocks down and buy some at Chipotle. Further, both of these are physical entities that I can buy elsewhere and bring back to my preferred location. If I could drive to Orlando and buy some magical Orlando cable box that gave me Orlando's FOX and NBC HD back here in Gainesville then I would, but there is no such alternative in this medium.

I apologize for my terrible examples.

If I buy exclusive distribution rights to ANY product or service it legally entitles me to be the only person to provide that product or service in the negotiated area.

This isn't practical or even available for all types of products and services but there are common examples.
If you want to buy a new Ford from someone other than Gainesville Ford. You'll have to leave Gainesville.
If I buy a McDonalds, Stanley Steamer, Molly Maid, Starbucks or most any franchise, I will likely negotiate a territory that will not allow anyone else in a negotiable radius to provide those brand name products or services.

If you like the Papa John's pizza from south of town but you live near an inferior one on the north side, the south franchise cannot legally deliver you a pizza because of their contract obligations.

With television stations like WOGX, the distribution contract is not with Cox cable but is between WOGX and FOX Network. WOGX effectively pays Fox Network for the rights to be the exclusive provider of Fox programming to Gainesville and Ocala. Cox is a redistributor and they do require permission to carry the Network copyright material currently owned by the TV staions for this geographic area. They cannot negotiate with someone else because these rights simply don't belong to anyone else.

Networks aren't legally obligated to only negotiate with TV stations and they are not legally obligated to sell exclusive rights. Exclusive distribution is the key value to Network programming. The exclusive distribution rights is the product that the Networks sell. These are simply economic descisions that Networks have determined to be the best way to make the most money.

There may be a greater inconvenience for viewers because TV is not a physical property but the laws are identical. My point was simply that there are no laws specific to protecting local televison distribution as many people seem to think. They are just the standard copyright laws that can apply to any product or service.

The options are the same as well, you can go into another providers territory or you can choose an alternate product but the chances of you getting "American Idol" from anyone other than a Fox affiliate is no greater than being able to buy a "Big Mac" from some other restaurant.
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post #657 of 3461 Old 10-27-2006, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostar View Post

Apparently NBC SD and NBC HD are two different products, as Cox cable is still carrying WESH SD. If this is the case then Cox should be able to purchase FOX HD from another Market.

"must carry" and "must not carry" Hmmm!

Who has the NBC HD redistribution rights for the Gainesville Market?

I thought that the "given area" and "geographic area" were the assigned DMA. And if this is true the Gainesville market is a NBC "unserved area" and cox would be lawfully able to purchase the right to carry the Jacksonville NBC HD station.

I guess the problem really lies with Cox cable's unwillingness to "pony up" for right to rebroadcast NBC HD" as they did with ABC HD.


No one actually owns the rights NBC distribution in Gainesville. There is no affiliate here. Ocala belongs to WESH. Jacksonville NBC does have rights in Gainesville and could invoke "must carry" rules as they are on the significantly viewed list for Gainesville.

The Jacksonville NBC would have to invoke their must carry rights and then Cox would have no choice. They would have to carry the Jacksonville NBC. Both WESH and WTLV have "must carry" rights in Gainesville. If both companies invoked their rights, Cox cable would have a choice of either carrying both of them or if they choose to carry only one it would have to be the closer of the two. That would be Jacksonville.

My speculation for the reason that this is not the case, is simply that NBC doesn't want it to be so. WESH is Hearst Argyle and they are NBC's biggest customer. I can only assume that NBC has told WTLV that there would be consequences if they invoked their "must carry" rights here. Unless WTLV does so, Cox does not have their permission and therefore cannot carry them.

This is purely speculation on my part. I really don't know why NBC doesn't seem to want a Gainesville affiliate station. It may be due to the proximity of Ocala which is part of the Orlando DMA and stations in Orlando could be nervous about the fact that they don't actually have any signal over Ocala and Gainesville stations do. If the FCC gets wierd about Emergency Alerts or something, they might legistlate a swing of Ocala into the Gainesville market. I don't know.

Cox can only purchase the rights from the current holder. Since there doesn't seem to be anyone holding these specific rights it's really up to NBC. It is possible that they have already sold them to WESH as part of their Orlando contract.
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post #658 of 3461 Old 10-27-2006, 10:06 AM
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Good posts Jim, I think I finally understand now .

I'm surprised FOX hasn't put more pressure on WOGX to go HD.

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post #659 of 3461 Old 10-27-2006, 10:47 AM
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Thanks for the info Jim.
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post #660 of 3461 Old 10-28-2006, 11:38 AM
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Well that about does it, Cox is now officially the worst company I have done any business with. We all know all the stories about HD stations, NBC HD, etc, but get a load of this.

So here I am, Saturday October 28th in Gainesville, Florida. Gainesville, Florida. Home of the Gators. On the day the Gators play Georgia in glorious HD. So...12:30pm and the cable goes splat. Perfectly sunny day and the cable is down. So I call Cox and they report there's no outage reported in the area as it automatically registers an outage when a certain number of people from the same area complain. The best they can do is send out a tech on Tuesday....worthless.

So, I go out and ask a couple of the neighbors (live in a condo), their cable is down as well. I call Cox back and explain the situation and tell them it's not just a problem at my place but I've verified that there is in fact an outage in the area. He tells me there is no reported outage and it will trigger when a certain number of people call in. I explain I know this but I've already checked and ask if he can put it in the system that it is in fact an outage and he tells me there is no way to do this in the system. I ask if there is someone else that can do it and he says no, reiterating every time that it will come up automatically when enough people report it even though I've told him I understand that and am trying to move things along before the Gator game starts but he basically says too bad as PC as he can.

I am left with the option of walking around my complex begging people to call in right then and there, though it's likely all futile anyway. Yeah, that's what I pay $125 a month for.

It's now 2:30 and I'm not counting on having it back on by 3:30. By the way, for whatever reason I'm in pretty much a deadzone for picking up CBS OTA so that isn't an option. Looks like I'll be heading somehwere else to watch the game yet again...good thing I just dropped $3k on this giant HDTV .

And the kicker? For the first time in weeks we're actually scheduled to get an NFL game in HD tomorrow. TWO of them no less. Doesn't do me much good without cable though.

I don't think I've ever been this furious with a company, and I'll be voting with my wallet this coming week. Any timetable on when Verizon FIOS will be available here? Also, if I get satellite and get a big outdoor antenna will they set that up for me when they install the dish?

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